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I don't quite like Abrams' attitude

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Grander and deeper must be the reason why The Dark Knight did so poorly... oh, wait a minute.

In my opinion, "The Dark Knight" is not all that grand or deep of a film. Good actors, and an outstanding performance from Heath Ledger, and a basic story that seems to be quite earnest in how it's presenting Batman and exploring the ethics of his actions, but I just don't see it as all that sophisticated a work of cinema. In many ways, its execution is rather like the new "Star Trek" picture: a slick entertainment with underwhelming production design, juvenile action scenes and a dearth of imagination. Funnily enough, both also try to be too "real world": TDK with its totally undisguised Chicago and gritty (yet still sanitized) feel; ST with its creaking shuttles, water pipes and valves, casual references to bestiality and slang words like "man" in a bar setting, etc. Neither is shy about stereotyping people, either (in TDK, the Chechen drug dealer; in ST, skinheads as antagonists -> typical Hollywood misdemeanours). Oh, and they both have main characters on a bike -- a cliché wrapped in a contrivance wrapped in a platitude, and the epitome of trying too hard by not really trying at all.
 
I'm going to watch Star Trek and Star Wars again to see if they do compare in any way.

I'll start with the one about a dude who leaves his home behind to pursue his destiny at the behest of some old dude who knew his father whilst the bad guys blow up planets.
jedi1.jpg
 
I couldn't care less about Abrams's attitude. He could be a huge jerk for all I know, so could any producer, director or whatever - it doesn't matter from my perspective. I enjoyed the film and I hope they hire him to make another one.
 
I couldn't care less about Abrams's attitude. He could be a huge jerk for all I know, so could any producer, director or whatever - it doesn't matter from my perspective. I enjoyed the film and I hope they hire him to make another one.

I don't really think his atitude is smug, but rather pragmatic. As a franchise Trek was in dire need of fresh blood and fresh ideas. Even lifelong fans such as myself could concede that. I think Abrams' team struck the right balance between pleasing the fanbase and breaking new ground.
 
In my opinion, "The Dark Knight" is not all that grand or deep of a film. Good actors, and an outstanding performance from Heath Ledger, and a basic story that seems to be quite earnest in how it's presenting Batman and exploring the ethics of his actions, but I just don't see it as all that sophisticated a work of cinema. In many ways, its execution is rather like the new "Star Trek" picture: a slick entertainment with underwhelming production design, juvenile action scenes and a dearth of imagination. Funnily enough, both also try to be too "real world": TDK with its totally undisguised Chicago and gritty (yet still sanitized) feel; ST with its creaking shuttles, water pipes and valves, casual references to bestiality and slang words like "man" in a bar setting, etc. Neither is shy about stereotyping people, either (in TDK, the Chechen drug dealer; in ST, skinheads as antagonists -> typical Hollywood misdemeanours). Oh, and they both have main characters on a bike -- a cliché wrapped in a contrivance wrapped in a platitude, and the epitome of trying too hard by not really trying at all.

Well, when you put it that way...

I still like both movies, though.
 
Well, exactly. If fans felt they had a right to bash Berman every time he said anything out of line, how come if anyone says anything against Abrams, they get squashed down by the pro-Abrams fanboys?

No Trek executive is beyond reproach. Roddenberry frankly said some silly things in his time, too. Meyer certainly did. Even Niners must admit that Behr and Moore were not flawless.
 
Well, exactly. If fans felt they had a right to bash Berman every time he said anything out of line, how come if anyone says anything against Abrams, they get squashed down by the pro-Abrams fanboys?
Frankly I resent that term. I happen to like a lot of what Abrams has done..how does that make me a "fanboy?"
No Trek executive is beyond reproach. Roddenberry frankly said some silly things in his time, too. Meyer certainly did. Even Niners must admit that Behr and Moore were not flawless.

Niners never admit that. Anything great about DS9 was because of the genius of Behr, Moore and Piller. Anything wrong with DS9 is always Berman's fault.

Fans are a fickle lot.
 
Look, when it comes down to it people weren't angry at Berman for what he said. Sure, that fanned the flames, but that wasn't the point. They were angry for VOY, ENT, GEN, INS, NEM. They didn't like what he was bringing to the table and thus were already ill-disposed to anything he did say.

Alternately, a lot of people enjoyed the new Star Trek, and as such, they're willing to cut Abrams quite a bit of slack. The double standard is enacted pretty much on the basis of whether or not you like the guy's work. If Abrams follows this movie up with some terrible sequels I'm sure attitudes towards him will change - just as they have with George Lucas.

Seriously, does anyone remember when Lucas was a beloved geek icon? It'd have to be pre-1997 or something. You're only as hated or as well liked as your latest addition to a franchise, clearly.
 
Actually, Berman was hated since GR died. Rumours abound about how he was forced on Roddenberry by Paramount as early as 1988.. He was pretty much branded the antichrist well before VOY, ENT, GEN, INS and NEM.

Abrams has hardly been given a pass. Anyone who visits this BBS would know that.

But I agree with what was just said. If the next film Abrams produces doesn't hit it out of the park the way this one did, he'll become persona non grata faster than you can say "Freidberger."
 
They tried to create something that appeared like it was "grander" and "deeper" with Star Trek once. And how did that work out for "The Motion Picture?" Not that great.

Speak for yourself. TMP is STILL my favorite Trek movie, second only to ST09.
 
They tried to create something that appeared like it was "grander" and "deeper" with Star Trek once. And how did that work out for "The Motion Picture?" Not that great.

Speak for yourself. TMP is STILL my favorite Trek movie, second only to ST09.
That's as may be, but it wasn't a critical success, nor did it make the studio very happy. They relented to another film as long as GR wasn't involved, with a smaller budget and had TWOK not been a hit, that would have been the end of it.
 
They tried to create something that appeared like it was "grander" and "deeper" with Star Trek once. And how did that work out for "The Motion Picture?" Not that great.

Speak for yourself. TMP is STILL my favorite Trek movie, second only to ST09.
That's as may be, but it wasn't a critical success, nor did it make the studio very happy.
Both of which had alot more to do with the budget vs returns than the actual performance of the movie. The fact that the film barely broke even at the box office had alot to do with it, despite the fact that it made ridiculous grosses just to cover that budget.

If anything the Bennet/Meyer issue was a way of reducing costs for the next film, since Paramount figured they would settle for cinematic compromises that a perfectionist control freak like Rodenberry would accept.

If nothing else, you can say that TMP was successful enough to try again with another film, with the promise that they wouldn't again go hugely over-budget. TNG had the same built-in safeguards in its first season, but Rodenberry got a bit more leeway within those restraints.


The overall point being: the success of a movie--especially of a Trek movie--has alot more to do with how effectively it communicates its story within the confines of its budget. Rodenberry sometimes had problems telling a good story in a cost-effective way. Nicholas Meyer and Harve Bennet were good at telling a somewhat amusing story in a VERY cost effective way. Berman was good at keeping costs down, but wouldn't know a good story if it farted in his ear. And Ronald D. Moore was like Roddenberry: a bit of a control freak and not good at working within boundaries. So now we have Abrams, who has just given us a very amusing story in a very cost effective way. Really, it wouldn't matter if Abrams effectively gave us a modernized version of TMP: he delivered a finished product under-budget and on schedule with a minimum of hickups and heckles. The movie's various flaws are minor enough that everyone I know who has EVER HEARD of Star Trek picked up the DVD this past week. In point of fact, I have not encountered anyone in the Chicago area who didn't think it was an awesome movie. the only complaints I ever see are... well, here.
 
Really, it wouldn't matter if Abrams effectively gave us a modernized version of TMP: he delivered a finished product under-budget and on schedule with a minimum of hickups and heckles. The movie's various flaws are minor enough that everyone I know who has EVER HEARD of Star Trek picked up the DVD this past week. In point of fact, I have not encountered anyone in the Chicago area who didn't think it was an awesome movie. the only complaints I ever see are... well, here.

Exactly. Because only on the Internet do self-proclaimed "fans" rip apart the things they supposedly like.
 
That analogy is accurate in a general sense, and I don't find it to be insulting to Trek. Many look down on it as "pew pew lazers with lolrobots and RAWRKLINGONS", when that's so off base. I'm happy for it to be classified as the classical music of scifi.
 
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