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How does red matter stop a supernova?

Quite the opposite... I was holding Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman to a higher standard. I already know what to expect from Braga or Biller--utter shit in all respects. Orci and Kurtzman created a tremendously energetic, engaging, fun story--that nonetheless needed another draft to be perfected, due to extremely questionable science and bad plotting. Frankly, the same problem is visible in varying degrees, sometimes to a far greater degree, in Star Treks 1-10. That problem is carelessness, a carelessness that should never fly in a serious production.

I mean, let's go back to TUC: a wonderful movie, sabotaged in its first scenes by an unnecessary danger to Sulu's ship (did the USS Nimitz have to get buffeted by radioactive wind from Chernobyl for people to understand it was a serious situation?) and continually undermined by a unfathomable conspiracy of Feds and Klingons to keep the war going between the Feds and Klingons.

ST11 is a product of that mold. Sadly, it didn't break it. It just spent more than money than it.

I find the lost opportunity to go from "nearly great" to "extremely great" unfortunate. I was hoping that ST11 would be the one I finally didn't bitch about. ;)
Actually, I agree with everything you said. The movie has flaws, there is no denying it: I agree the script needed to be refined (maybe the writers' strike had something to do with that), that the lens flares were too much, the aesthetic was sometimes jarring, the soundtrack was inspired but repetitive. I understand that some people may have not liked it. But level of vitriol is both annoying and hilarious.
 
Is this really anything new? Just the explosion of a Klingon moon knocked the shit out of a starship dozens of light years away... that's TREK physics at work. By that exact same paradigm, a genuine supernova explosion could easily pulverize an entire galaxy unless somebody does something about it.

Problem is that if naturally occurring supernovae would be capable of doing that, it would've probably already happened in 15 billion years the galaxy has existed. Praxis effect was annoying as well, but was artificial and rather localised, so it was not that bad. Genesis device was crazy powerful, but at least they explained how it worked and it seemed to make some sense.

Most perplexing thing about the application of red matter is it's ability to contain a supernova after it already has exploded, that is just bizarre. I mean I can accept that red matter can create singularities, that is ludicrous, but hey, so was Genesis device. How rewinding already exploding (super-luminal?) supernova follows from that, I'll never know.

But of course all this is pretty subjective, red matter caused serious "man what" moment to me, unlike Genesis or Praxis incident, so it didn't work for me.
 
Most perplexing thing about the application of red matter is it's ability to contain a supernova after it already has exploded, that is just bizarre. I mean I can accept that red matter can create singularities, that is ludicrous, but hey, so was Genesis device.

I can't understand why red matter would be any more ludicrous than, say, plutonium or electricity. Those are certainly pretty ludicrous as concepts, but we don't use that adjective for them any more.

As for the other thing...

Forget about the comic - that's what's silly and implausible here. Only accept Spock's actual words from the movie. Let's try that one:

1) "A star will explode and threaten to destroy the galaxy"? Sure - if it was a star near Romulus. All hell could be expected to break loose if Romulus went. A literally true statement, even if we may have initial misconceptions about the nature of the destruction. And "galaxy" has always equalled "human-controlled parts of Milky Way" anyway; our heroes are not above looking at their own navels.

2) "A star went supernova, consuming everything in its path." Supernovas do that. If it were a neighboring star, Romulus might be in grave danger, and there might be only about a year or two of reaction time after the explosion. If it were the sun of Romulus, there would be no reaction time after the explosion (well, minutes, but nothing that would help). But let's note that nothing in Spock's words necessitates that the star blew first and the red matter mission was launched thereafter. The reverse order of events is also possible.

3) "I promised the Romulans that I would save their planet. We outfitted our fastest ship. Using red matter, I would create a black hole which would absorb the exploding star." This sounds like the Vulcans had just a few hours in which to act. This would be true if the explosion of the Romulan homesun had been predicted but had not yet happened. Red matter would have been projected to be effective against stars that are about to explode, although Spock would later be able to use it against a star that had already exploded.

4) "I was en route, when the unthinkable happened. The supernova destroyed Romulus." In other words, Spock may be saying that the supernova exploded, and that destroyed Romulus. So either the time of the explosion had been predicted wrong, or Spock was too slow. Both explanations work fine.

5) "I had little time. I had to extract the red matter and shoot it into the supernova." Romulus is already gone, yet Spock thinks he has time? Fascinating. Perhaps we do have to believe that the supernova explosion was threatening other stars, too, and not merely by destabilizing the Romulan Star Empire.

Or perhaps not. Spock seems to be saying that he didn't have any red matter yet, but had to "extract" it from somewhere after arriving. It seems the only place from which he could extract it would be the Romulan system. And indeed there'd indeed be little time to do that if Romulus herself was already gone; the rest of the system would soon be gone, too.

A third alternative is that red matter itself is dangerous, and that Spock would die if he didn't extract his onboard red matter in time and dump it. And dumping it in the supernova would be the only safe place, probably. But that doesn't jibe well with the fact that Spock survived just fine with a big lump of remaining red matter aboard his ship. Perhaps he just had to lose some mass to go subcritical?

6) "As I began my return trip, I was intercepted." The return trip would begin from the location of the supernova, since Spock dropped the red matter in the supernova, and the black hole was formed at the drop site - and the interception resulted in Spock falling into that black hole. Nothing in this precludes us from believing that the location of the supernova and the location of Romulus were one and the same.

So we don't have to believe in a truly galaxy-shattering explosion, merely in an explosion that would have results of some sort that would threaten the galaxy.

Now, the same dialogue could support the idea that the supernova was elsewhere, and destroyed Romulus in a faster-than-light action, and that Spock fought the supernova at its source, not at Romulus. But that is more difficult to accept, because shutting down the supernova at the source wouldn't save Romulus if the explosion had already happened.

Which of these two ideas is the less implausible in the end? "Distant FTL supernova" makes mockery of Spock's promise to save Romulus, and isn't physically completely plausible even with the usual Trek caveats. But "local realistic supernova" that threatens nobody else makes it unclear why Spock bothers with the red matter at all, after Romulus is already gone.

So why not go for a compromise? An explosion in the Romulan system is something that could happen on such a timescale that Spock would only learn en route that Romulus was gone. But that explosion could expand to neighboring systems at realistic STL speeds and threaten them, too - unless cut off at the source by creating a big black hole, a plan that might still be realistic a few minutes after the explosion. The mass of the supernova star would still be mostly at the center, and would make for a nice black hole. And if gravity moves instantaneously (as Trek often assumes), this black hole would help contain an expanding explosion cloud that moved at lightspeed - while if gravity moves at lightspeed, it would still help contain the STL elements of the expanding cloud.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Afaik, however, only aging massive stars undergo Type Ib and c and Type II supernova events. Only non-main sequence stars undergo Type Ia events. Neither of which fits the profile of Romulus' sun well.

Now, I'll let someone who knows better answer this, but I'm curious--would a supernova-prone star be obvious? Not on a scale of years or decades, but thousands or millions of years? I mean, when the renegade Vulcans colonized the planet, roughly 2000 years before, couldn't they have detected the age and constitution of the star--particularly its iron content--and figure out that it was a worrisome sun that they shouldn't set up shop around?
 
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Timo, I've not read the comic, my impressions were from the film only. And a plot device that takes a full page essay to rationalise, so that it makes remotely sense if you squint really hard, is not a very good plot device however you look at it.
 
Chaos, the big difference is that this MacGuffin is just a stupid MacGuffin.. there was never any thought given to how it works

And neither should there have been. That's my point.

It's meant to be unexplainable and exotic future science.

Personally, I wish that technology in Trek was a lot more like technology in Star Wars... it's simply there, and it works. I don't want to know how the transporter works, I just want to know that it gets someone from A to B with a quickness.

I wish Trek (modern) were more plot and character driven and less technobabble driven. But since they did introduce this silly McGuffin, there's very little to be gained from trying to figure out how it works.

siskofacepalm.gif

:rolleyes:

Save it.
 
Basically red-matter was supposed to produce a black-hole. That was supposed to implode the supernova rather than it blowing up.
 
Star Trek, or at least TOS was supposed have beleievabilty as one of its tenets.
If red matter was only to create a black hole, no connection to another universe could have happened in the time it would take for the two ships to go through it.
 
I'm just in shock at all the people saying the Genesis Device was more plausible than Red Matter. The idea that a capsule of that size would even have the space to store the information in enough detail to build a planet geologically, atmospherically, and ecologically from an appropriately-sized hunk of rock is insane, much less the fact that it could apparently do such a massive construction project in a matter of hours as an unguided physical process. But somehow, this is more plausible than multiplying the effect of gravity? At least that only requires Godlike control of a single simple force, which they've already demonstrated in Star Trek whenever we see someone walking around on a spaceship. Oh, and it also opened a wormhole. Because that doesn't happen every five damn minutes in Star Trek, anyway.
 
Here's the Bad Astronomy review, wherein the red matter is discussed;

The Scene:

In the scene where Spock explains the plot to the audience during a mind meld with Kirk, he says a supernova went off that "threatened the galaxy". We see a giant yellow star explode, and it destroys Romulus.

The Science:

That scene physically pained me; I just wrote a book with an entire chapter devoted to the damage supernovae can cause, and the movie pretty much screwed it all up.

First off, supernovae are exploding stars, and are incredibly violent events. They emit trillions of times as much energy as the Sun does, and can outshine entire galaxies. But for all that, the damage they do is local; you have to be within about 50 light years for them to physically hurt a planet. Past that, and they can’t even bruise our fragile ozone layer.

For one to destroy a planet, physically vaporize it, the planet would have to be orbiting the star that explodes! Even from a light year away a supernova can’t wipe out a planet like that. And remember, our galaxy is 100,000 light years across. A supernova is nowhere near strong enough to take out a whole galaxy.

Also, a supernova happens when a very massive star at the end of its life explodes. Stars like this are supergiants that are either red (like Betelgeuse) or blue-white (like Deneb). The star in the movie was yellow. I can’t say that would never happen, but as far as we know, yellow stars can’t blow.
Dana Berry artwork of a GRB

Now, had Abrams called me, I would’ve told him to use a gamma-ray burst, not a supernova. GRBs are like super-supernovae, where instead of the explosion moving outward in a spherical shell, the energy is focused into twin beams of cosmic fury. These Blowtorches of Doom could easily set a plane aflame from even hundreds of light years away, and the special effect for it would’ve been a bazillion times cooler in the movie.

J. J., babe, call me next time!

Incidentally, Spock says he tried to stop the supernova by using red matter to create a black hole to absorb the explosion. That wouldn’t work; in fact in the center of many supernovae the star’s core collapses to a black hole. The outer layers of the stars have so much energy they easily explode outwards even though at the heart of the explosion sits a black hole. So either Spock was mistaken in his calculations (gasp! horror!), he was lying about trying to stop the explosion (hmmm, sequel anyone?), or the writers just screwed up this bit of science.
 
Star Trek, or at least TOS was supposed have beleievabilty as one of its tenets.
Heh... and finding a whole string of planets that are inexplicably identical to Earth except for some subtle difference is what you call "believable?"

I'm just in shock at all the people saying the Genesis Device was more plausible than Red Matter. The idea that a capsule of that size would even have the space to store the information in enough detail to build a planet geologically, atmospherically, and ecologically from an appropriately-sized hunk of rock is insane, much less the fact that it could apparently do such a massive construction project in a matter of hours as an unguided physical process. But somehow, this is more plausible than multiplying the effect of gravity? At least that only requires Godlike control of a single simple force, which they've already demonstrated in Star Trek whenever we see someone walking around on a spaceship. Oh, and it also opened a wormhole. Because that doesn't happen every five damn minutes in Star Trek, anyway.
I always pictured Genesis was some kind of Von Neuman device. A major part of its functioning is to take a bunch of matter from the planet, break it down for fuel, then replicate a copy of itself a few meters away. The two copies then each produce another copy, then still another copy, etc etc until suddenly the entire surface of the planet is covered with genesis devices. All of them then work like industrial replicators, scooping up huge chunks of the planet's surface and reorganizing them into a specific configuration based on a fractal program stored in the original device's database. The last stage of the genesis effect would be that each duplicate device dismantles the one next to it until only one device remains; though I know it wasn't openly stated in TWOK, but I kept getting the impression that the Genesis Device was somehow reusable, hence the Genesis Cave being created by the same prototype device that later creates the genesis planet (but winds up buried under the surface because of the activation on the Reliant).

Basically, this would make the Genesis Device a much more productive version of Rom's self-replicating minefield: the tricky part, apparently, is programming a replication matrix that can be stored in a single device. David apparently solved the problem by including "protomatter" in the matrix (red matter, protomatter, what's the matter?) which just fucked EVERYTHING up.

See, it's plausible if you can think out a few of the details. The thing is, the details aren't really important to the coherence of the story, so including them doesn't add anything to it. Trekkies can and will fill in the gaps when we feel we need to, but in the end, we don't really need to.
 
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The problem with a von Neumann machine approach to Genesis isn't that it's impossible--nanomachines essentially built the biosphere of Earth, it just took three billion years to get it cozy. I'm also fine with the possibility that a functional, if not diverse, biosphere could be generated from a relatively small database.

So, if Genesis was like a gray goo (or whatever color, I forget) thing, that's acceptable, but the device working its magic in a few minutes is pretty infeasible.

Of course, how the Genesis Planet changed seasons between sound stages, or how the Genesis effect increased vulcanism to a cataclysmic level, is a whole other issue.

Fwiw, "thalaron" radiation probably isn't any better than red matter, either. Breaks down organic matter at the subatomic level, indeed...
 
Fwiw, "thalaron" radiation probably isn't any better than red matter, either. Breaks down organic matter at the subatomic level, indeed...

Indeed. I suspect that if the film's writers had given red matter some traditionally Treknobabble-sounding name like a "quantum collapson node" or some such nonsense, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
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