Never been transported?

[sojourner]

So, do you think in the trek universe there are certain products that advise against being transported? Maybe fine wines? Things of that nature. Is it possible to assume that those products have developed a label technology that changes color or something if it has been run through a transporter?

 

[FordSVT]

Well we know for a fact that there are certain things that are difficult or impossible to transport safely, so I can imagine that somewhere between there and "perfect" there are some types of matter that could be transported intact but imperfectly which might somehow influence the exact results.

However, if it can transport a human being successfully, as complex a biological system as we are, I somehow doubt that the transport would screw up a batch of alcohol and sugar, or most other things. Exotic materials, incompatible technologies, that sort of thing maybe.

 

[Myasishchev]

I say antimatter, but TOS and Voyager say otherwise.

Apparently some chemicals are better shipped than beamed (like that one in "The Most Toys") because they're volatile, which seems like it might be reasonable. Clearly the operation of the transporter involves applying energy, so a really unstable molecule would likely be broken in an unwanted way.

But it really should not be able to handle antimatter.

 

[sojourner]

I am thinking more along the lines of products where transporting it would have more of a subjective change, like a 200 year old bottle of wine. I could see companies (disregarding the whole capitalism discussion) making this an important distinction of the product. Sort of like the diamond industry today and how it keeps coming up with new ways to tell artificial from mined diamonds.

 

[USS Triumphant]

But it really should not be able to handle antimatter.

Given that transporters work on a quantum level, and anti-matter is just a different arrangement of quarks than we are used to in matter, I can't say that I can see why you say that - unless it was an anti-matter version of a material that already has a problem being transported, like anti-latinum or such.

I am thinking more along the lines of products where transporting it would have more of a subjective change, like a 200 year old bottle of wine.

Hmmm... the destruction of an item's intrinsic values. Like that bottle of wine you mention - a transported bottle might taste exactly the same, but technically after being assembled by the transporter it would be no different than wine replicated from scans of the bottle. No longer "200 years old", just replicated. Or like the Mona Lisa - if you transported it, then technically the painting that came out of the other end of the process was never touched by The Master's hands. It almost might as well be an excellent forgery of the painting, at that point.

I can see it.

And yes, you probably could make a label that detects transporter use, using something like a latinum-based ink, I would think.

 

[Klaitu]

Let's take for example, alcohol or raw meat.

There's an impression throughout trek that Replicated alcohol and meats are inferior to the actual, legitimate version of the same item... so let's say you wanted to board the ship with a bottle of wine and a big mac, and you arrive via transporter.

So now, does your wine and big mac taste like it's been replicated? If there is no change in taste, then why can't the replicators work better? If there is a change in taste, that means something inside them must of changed.. and do you really feel comfortable with the transporter beaming your actual body around?

Good discussion on this one, I think.

 

[USS Triumphant]

So now, does your wine and big mac taste like it's been replicated? If there is no change in taste, then why can't the replicators work better? If there is a change in taste, that means something inside them must of changed.. and do you really feel comfortable with the transporter beaming your actual body around?

If the only apparent result is that I'm less tasty to something that wants to eat me, then maybe.

I've read somewhere (that I doubt is canon) that the replicators operate on a molecular level, but the transporters operate on the quantum level. But since the sense of taste is achieved by sensors on the tongue that operate on the molecular level, I still don't understand why replicated food would taste different. I think the writers were being cute - implying that "thar's something wrong with newfangled technology" - and I've never really cared for it in this case.

 

[Myasishchev]

I'm not entirely convinced replicators even operate at the cellular level, but if they do work at a molecular level, they should be fully capable of replicating absolutely faithful food.

Not to mention an absolutely faithful brain. If I'm not mistaken, Trek--in a workaround fashion--wound up positing a quantum component to consciousness before Penrose did in order to account for the inability to replicate minds, but the substrate on which conscious works is at lowest level a molecular pattern, and should be totally replicable...

Regarding matter and antimatter being made of quarks, I have two points:

1)I don't think transporters split baryons. The energy requirements are just too much. I floated this as a possible mechanism for recombination at a chosen target, but there is no mechanism to separate quarks without insanely high temperatures.
2)The baryonic particles and antiparticles are not rearrangements of the same quarks. They are differing arrangements of quarks and antiquarks, and to the best of my knowledge same-flavor quarks will annihilate each other regardless of whether they are configured as ordinary triquarks (baryons) or in an (unlikely) totally unbound state. They jointly decay in 10^-17 seconds into gamma rays and an e+/e- pair when superposed together as neutral pions. It's my understanding that this is an annihilation reaction... although I'm willing to be corrected on this point. I think what you're thinking of might be the difference in construction between protons and neutrons, which are the comparatively stable bound states of two up quarks and one down quark and one up quark and two down quarks respectively.

 

[David cgc]

I've read somewhere (that I doubt is canon) that the replicators operate on a molecular level, but the transporters operate on the quantum level. But since the sense of taste is achieved by sensors on the tongue that operate on the molecular level, I still don't understand why replicated food would taste different. I think the writers were being cute - implying that "thar's something wrong with newfangled technology" - and I've never really cared for it in this case.

It was always intended that replicators operate on a lower resolution than transporters. It's also been suggested behind the scenes that while people get all snobby about replicated food, they probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a blind test, and the distinction is mostly psychological (except maybe in cases like Troi's chocolate-sundae-that-wasn't-as-bad-for-her-as-it-was-supposed-to-be, where the replicator took intentional liberties with the pattern and made something that was deliberately different than the original).

 

[Tigger]

I've read somewhere (that I doubt is canon) that the replicators operate on a molecular level, but the transporters operate on the quantum level.

The TNG Tech Manual is where I first read of this distinction between transporters and replicators. Also, the TNG TM notes that Cargo Transporters can operate at a lower "resolution" when transporting non-living cargo to save energy.

 

[FordSVT]

Transporters don't just replicate a pattern, destroying the original, they take the original pieces apart, move them and put them back together again. This is how we can avoid messy philosophical questions: in a way it's just a crazy version of getting your arm cut off and put back on. They're your atoms, it's still you.

Replicators take one kind of matter and make it into something else which is apparently a bit more difficult and hence the reason stuff sometimes doesn't taste perfect. It's not taking the ingredients of an ice cream sunday from one place and putting it in another.

I'd also suggest that replicator food probably does taste almost indistinguishable from "the real thing", but as in real life there is a gradient to the quality of food. There's a difference between a fast food burger, one made at home and one made in a 4 star Michelin restaurant.

 

[Timo]

I say antimatter, but TOS and Voyager say otherwise.

And TNG. In "Peak Performance", Riker's ship didn't have any antimatter at all; then Wesley transported his science project over; and then the ship did have antimatter. Also, shuttlecraft were to be transported in some cases such as "Deja Q", although we could argue that those aren't necessarily powered by antimatter.

TAS, too. And ENT, in "Civilization" at least. And I'd really be surprised if DS9 didn't have a reference as well.

It would be interesting to learn how antimatter is transferred from stores or tankers to starships. Which is riskier, transporting or physical moving?

Not to mention an absolutely faithful brain. If I'm not mistaken, Trek--in a workaround fashion--wound up positing a quantum component to consciousness before Penrose did in order to account for the inability to replicate minds, but the substrate on which conscious works is at lowest level a molecular pattern, and should be totally replicable...

I don't remember any references to minds being unreplicable, really. It just isn't done (onscreen at least), but it's not labeled as impossible, either. Certainly living neural tissue is replicable, as in VOY "Emanations".

As for differences in taste, well, they are likely to be differences of taste. That is, two identical dishes may always be deemed different if the guy doing the deeming is intent on deeming that way. Probably there's no difference between replicated Chateau Picard and the stuff that Robert used to grow, but nobody is going to admit that, at least not within an arm's length of Robert. It's probably just as fashionable to say that "real" wine is better than replicated as it is to say that wine X is better than wine Y - completely subjectively, without regard of measurable facts, and typically also with an agenda.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

...It's probably just as fashionable to say that "real" wine is better than replicated as it is to say that wine X is better than wine Y - completely subjectively, without regard of measurable facts...

Sort of like the way that people go on about the infinite superiority of organically grown food today

 

[Myasishchev]

I never understood what organically grown meant. I mean, I like my food to have carbon it, sure...

 

[STR]

I think the whole "it tastes replicated" is some stupid illusion to microwave ovens and frozen TV dinners. If it's fast and easy, it MUST taste worse than slow and convoluted, a modern culinary conceit. Or we can chalk it up to stupid dialogue and bad writing. It's all good to me.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Romulan Ale - replicator

I'm not entirely convinced replicators even operate at the cellular level, but if they do work at a molecular level, they should be fully capable of replicating absolutely faithful food.

I agree.
3 things:
1. How come no one replicates Romulan Ale? Yes I know it is illegal from this thread. But it is somewhat a grey area. Is only synthehol allowed on Federation starships?
Is it that verboten in the United Federation of Planets than Starfleet ships will not allow it to be replicated for social events on a ship or starbase?
If people are able to create their own holodeck programs at least on VOY then why can't they tinker with creating food or alcoholic beverages with a replicator if Starfleet does not have Romulan Ale programmed already?



2. Memory alpha mentions

Federation replicators were programmed to produce foodstuffs of acceptable "nutritional value".

Very similar to the food synthesizers used in 22nd century.
Since it is older technology it must be much easier to make, use less energy & resources.
While it would seem that replicator rations would deliver this when necessary and someone like Neelix on VOY created fresh crew meals from real plants/animals. Any food prepared fresh and handmade takes a priority over replicated food as you can smell handmade and fresh food while it is cooking which is part of the sensual pleasure of eating.
In the 24th century on VOY when Janeway asks for black coffee she always gets it.
The complexity of chemicals in coffee should show why many wines or Romulan Ale should be able to be replicated as well.

3. How come 7of9 never used any of the Borg's technology to make the replicators on Voyager much more efficient or able to do even more?

 

[Myasishchev]

It would really put the Federation in a bad light if they dictated what you could and could not eat with your standard-issue replicator, wouldn't it?

 

[Longinus]

It would really put the Federation in a bad light if they dictated what you could and could not eat with your standard-issue replicator, wouldn't it?

Well not necessarily. Even in today certain substances are prohibited and selling them is illegal. It would only be logical to have a law that requires replicator manufacturers comply with the laws of Federation and make sure that their machines are not used producing illegal stuff. Would you like to every household to have a machine that could produce limitless amounts of heroin at will?

 

[The Librarian]

It would really put the Federation in a bad light if they dictated what you could and could not eat with your standard-issue replicator, wouldn't it?

Well not necessarily. Even in today certain substances are prohibited and selling them is illegal. It would only be logical to have a law that requires replicator manufacturers comply with the laws of Federation and make sure that their machines are not used producing illegal stuff. Would you like to every household to have a machine that could produce limitless amounts of heroin at will?

Not only that, but these are replicators on a Starfleet ship serving Starfleet officers. I'm pretty sure that if Starfleet wants to say the crew must have a nutritionally balanced diet, while still saying "eat anything you want", that's perfectly fair.

 

[Myasishchev]

It would really put the Federation in a bad light if they dictated what you could and could not eat with your standard-issue replicator, wouldn't it?

Well not necessarily. Even in today certain substances are prohibited and selling them is illegal. It would only be logical to have a law that requires replicator manufacturers comply with the laws of Federation and make sure that their machines are not used producing illegal stuff. Would you like to every household to have a machine that could produce limitless amounts of heroin at will?

Would I!