Star Trek: Nemesis - I've changed my verdict

[Amasov]

To say that we fans have been hard on Nemesis is the understatement of the 21st Century. We've torn it apart, criticized it, pointed out plotholes, called it a total rip-off of TWOK, you name it. Hell, even outside of the fan community, I remember reading a review for it in the newspaper where the critic claimed that Riker was fat and Shinzon's teeth were too crooked.

So, a long time has passed since the movie came out and I haven't seen many threads on the film around here since Star Trek XI was out. After letting the dust settle for a long time, I decided to give the movie another look. I should tell you guys that this is the Star Trek movie that I have seen the least amount of times. I've already seen XI four times - twice in the theater, once on my HDTV, and have it playing to me on my iPod to get through the workday.

But a few weeks ago, I started to transfer a lot of my movies onto my iPod, including a few of the Star Trek films. Listening to music, movies, or a TV show on my iPod really allows me to focus. So, one day I decided to put Nemesis on there and just have a listen while I was working one day.

So, having not watched (or listened) to Nemesis in, say, four years, I put it on there and played it early last week and you know... I don't really think it's that bad of a movie. I think that I honestly do enjoy it far more than TFF - which I used to hold above Nemesis - mostly because as bad as that movie is, you have to admit, there are a few nice moments in the film (Kirk telling Sybok that he needs his pain, for example).

Now, I don't think Nemesis is a GREAT movie, but it's not bad. It's not nearly up to par with First Contact, but it was a valiant effort. My only problem with the movie was that I didn't fully buy Shinzon's intentions, plus I didn't like how he suddenly went evil on Picard. Surely, he was deceiving Picard early on in the movie during their meeting and at dinner, but I didn't really like the way Shinzon simply transported Picard off the Enterprise and held him captive because he was "lonely."

I think the movie had the right idea, it just needed a little more work and fleshing out. It almost felt like the script being used wasn't in final draft or something. It's also quite clear that TWOK was used as a template to make this the TNG equivalent, but if you ask me, First Contact holds that title.

So, I decided that Nemesis really isn't all that bad. Was it the best? Not at all. Could it have been worse? Oh, I think so.

The film didn't feel 'final' for the TNG cast as I feel they could have used one more movie.

But those are my new thoughts on Nemesis.

Look forward to talking about it more with the rest of you guys.

 

[Chrisisall]

To say that we fans have been hard on Nemesis is the understatement of the 21st Century.
Look forward to talking about it more with the rest of you guys.

I really didn't think it was all that bad myself. Biggest thing for me: I would have had Patrick Stewart play both roles, with cool make-up & accent differences. THAT would have propelled it into greatness IMO.
As it is, I sort of put it on the same level as TFF (which is also much maligned IMO).

 

[Bones2]

I like Nemesis a lot. Probably prefer it to XI.

 

[ncc-1017-e]

To say that we fans have been hard on Nemesis is the understatement of the 21st Century. We've torn it apart, criticized it, pointed out plotholes, called it a total rip-off of TWOK, you name it. Hell, even outside of the fan community, I remember reading a review for it in the newspaper where the critic claimed that Riker was fat and Shinzon's teeth were too crooked.

So, a long time has passed since the movie came out and I haven't seen many threads on the film around here since Star Trek XI was out. After letting the dust settle for a long time, I decided to give the movie another look. I should tell you guys that this is the Star Trek movie that I have seen the least amount of times. I've already seen XI four times - twice in the theater, once on my HDTV, and have it playing to me on my iPod to get through the workday.

But a few weeks ago, I started to transfer a lot of my movies onto my iPod, including a few of the Star Trek films. Listening to music, movies, or a TV show on my iPod really allows me to focus. So, one day I decided to put Nemesis on there and just have a listen while I was working one day.

So, having not watched (or listened) to Nemesis in, say, four years, I put it on there and played it early last week and you know... I don't really think it's that bad of a movie. I think that I honestly do enjoy it far more than TFF - which I used to hold above Nemesis - mostly because as bad as that movie is, you have to admit, there are a few nice moments in the film (Kirk telling Sybok that he needs his pain, for example).

Now, I don't think Nemesis is a GREAT movie, but it's not bad. It's not nearly up to par with First Contact, but it was a valiant effort. My only problem with the movie was that I didn't fully buy Shinzon's intentions, plus I didn't like how he suddenly went evil on Picard. Surely, he was deceiving Picard early on in the movie during their meeting and at dinner, but I didn't really like the way Shinzon simply transported Picard off the Enterprise and held him captive because he was "lonely."

I think the movie had the right idea, it just needed a little more work and fleshing out. It almost felt like the script being used was in final draft or something. It's also quite clear that TWOK was used as a template to make this the TNG equivalent, but if you ask me, First Contact holds that title.

So, I decided that Nemesis really isn't all that bad. Was it the best? Not at all. Could it have been worse? Oh, I think so.

The film didn't feel 'final' for the TNG cast as I feel they could have used one more movie.

But those are my new thoughts on Nemesis.

Look forward to talking about it more with the rest of you guys.

What is the difference in Shinzon and Nero?

 

[Amasov]

^One has a tattoo and the other one doesn't.

 

[Chrisisall]

What is the difference in Shinzon and Nero?

^One has a tattoo and the other one doesn't.

Pretty much.

 

[Joker]

The movie was, and continues to be, a heap of festering cowshit.

 

[Chrisisall]

a heap of festering cowshit.

From what planet?

 

[Voyagerian]

To say that we fans have been hard on Nemesis is the understatement of the 21st Century.
Look forward to talking about it more with the rest of you guys.

I really didn't think it was all that bad myself. Biggest thing for me: I would have had Patrick Stewart play both roles, with cool make-up & accent differences. THAT would have propelled it into greatness IMO.
As it is, I sort of put it on the same level as TFF (which is also much maligned IMO).

Chris, that's a wild, interesting idea to have had Patrick-mano-a-mano with himself as Shinzon...closest thing I've seen was Jean-Luc and Mirror Picard in 'Dark Mirror', the TNG novel by Diane Duane I believe. Or the Mirror Picard in the Shatner novels 'Dark Victory', AND 'Spectre'....it might have upped the ante for the film. My fanfic idea is that it was Sela who actually conceived the thought of cloning Picard...it'd fit her animus and personal history with him...

 

[Broccoli]

I didn't really like the way Shinzon simply transported Picard off the Enterprise and held him captive because he was "lonely."

Uh...he kidnapped Picard for his blood. Granted he said he was lonely, but given the way he said it, that was Shinzon displaying dry wit.

 

[Eleanor_zhDarjel]

I liked it too, despite the flaws. And I agree with Amasov, it can always get worse.

 

[Penhall99]

I liked Nemeis from the start. Flawed, but VERY under-rated, IMO.

But I liked all the Trek films. Some more than others, but they were all pretty solid...

 

[Trek Survivor]

I like Nemesis just fine. It's just become "trendy" around these parts to hate it, just like the hate for Rick Berman. Some Trek fans just wanna be "part of the gang" (remember Homer Simpson's rule of the playground: "Never, ever say anything unless you're sure everyone else will agree with you." Some posters have that perception!!)

Nemesis has flaws, so do all the Trek movies INCLUDING "Wrath Of Khan" (e.g. Kirk and Khan - your hero/villain - never actually meeting FACE-TO-FACE).

 

[Amasov]

I didn't really like the way Shinzon simply transported Picard off the Enterprise and held him captive because he was "lonely."

Uh...he kidnapped Picard for his blood. Granted he said he was lonely, but given the way he said it, that was Shinzon displaying dry wit.

I didn't care for how he just randomly kidnapped Picard - especially given the dinner scene between the two gave us some insight into Shinzon. I feel that if he been slightly more manipulative or gone about it differently, it could have worked better than just nabbing Picard out of the blue.

 

[Doug Otte]

How can you concentrate on watching a movie while you're working? More likely, you're subliminally hearing the dialogue and occasionally seeing some of the images. Watching a movie that way, whether it's via an i-pod or a regular TV, sometimes makes the movie more palatable.

In other words, I'm really not concentrating on the movie, and thus have a lower expectation of it, and thus possibly enjoy it more. I enjoy Ghost Whisperer when I'm just sitting with a glass of wine and my family on a Friday night. I see the eye candy, but miss a lot of the convoluted plot and silly dialogue. However, if I actually try to pay attention, my head spins, and not in a good way.

Doug

 

[ChristopherPike]

My opinion hasn't changed since January 2003 when I saw it in cinemas. Not the worst film ever made, Star Trek or otherwise. Sad that its poor box office basically sealed the fate of both The Next Generation and the whole of modern Trek in general. Really proving to the studio that there was no other viable alternative for populist appeal than a return to Kirk and Spock. If only...

 

[Broccoli]

I didn't really like the way Shinzon simply transported Picard off the Enterprise and held him captive because he was "lonely."

Uh...he kidnapped Picard for his blood. Granted he said he was lonely, but given the way he said it, that was Shinzon displaying dry wit.

I didn't care for how he just randomly kidnapped Picard - especially given the dinner scene between the two gave us some insight into Shinzon. I feel that if he been slightly more manipulative or gone about it differently, it could have worked better than just nabbing Picard out of the blue.

Fair enough, but the blood was his reason...not that he was lonely.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Uh...he kidnapped Picard for his blood. Granted he said he was lonely, but given the way he said it, that was Shinzon displaying dry wit.

I didn't care for how he just randomly kidnapped Picard - especially given the dinner scene between the two gave us some insight into Shinzon. I feel that if he been slightly more manipulative or gone about it differently, it could have worked better than just nabbing Picard out of the blue.

Fair enough, but the blood was his reason...not that he was lonely.

Oh, come on - he was being sarcastic. This isn't a dialogue/plot error, it's part of his character! I thought it was quite obvious this is what he meant when he said "I was lonely"...

 

[Shazam!]

I like Nemesis a lot. Probably prefer it to XI.

I wouldn't say I liked Nemesis a lot, but yeah, I prefer it to Trek XI as well.

 

[Kegg]

While it's on the lower-rung of Star Trek movies... it's true that I'd still consider it mostly somewhere below mediocre. For some reason I've recently watched Matrix Revolutions for the first time since its cinematic release (for ironic riffing purposes, I swear), and boy, I'd forgotten how many types of crap that movie was. I think that movie actually makes progressively less sense on a scene-by-scene basis, that's a sort of stupidity that becomes awe-inspiring.

But 'below mediocre' is still many paces beneath good. Nemesis has the right general idea in that it wants to be an epic action film and still a Star Trek picture (always a difficult task), but the whole thing from writing to direction simply isn't terribly well executed and we're left with a big dumb movie with Orcs for some reason.