Waters of Mars Comment & Grading SPOILERS

[Cutter John]

Adelaide mentions at one point something about the Earth's atmosphere and weather being in a bad state in the time she lives in, which is one of her reasons for coming out into space. But the Second Doctor story The Enemy of the World, had Salamandar create the Sun-Catcher device to control Earth's weather around 2017 (or 2030 according to the Target novelisation), and the Gravitron was built on the moon to control weather in 2050 according to The Moonbase. I didn't expect such sloppiness on RTD's part.

Well aparently the climate was in a sorry state if we had to use artificial means to keep it under control.

from Broadcastnow.co.uk
Doctor Who special The Waters of Mars kicked off with a huge audience of 10.4m last night, but that was beaten by ITV1 pairing the return of I’m a Celebrity with X Factor.

Viewers were spoiled for choice across the terrestrials, with the return of Top Gear, a new episode of Garrow’s Law and the premiere of Clint Eastwood movie Flags of Our Fathers, but David Tennant’s return as the wide-eyed time lord kicked things off nicely at 7pm.
According to overnight figures from Attentional, an average of 9.1m (33.9%) tuned in for the hour-long special, with the audience peaking at 7.55pm with 10.4m (36.4%).

Sounds to me like the Beebs cunning plan (that we discussed a month or so back) to beat the competition by not announcing airtimes til the last minute was a bit of an epic fail.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

^They still had higher ratings than the average episode, Christmas specials are usually better than that but X-Factor is a ratings juggernaut so it's not surprising, really.

 

[Cyke101]

Adelaide mentions at one point something about the Earth's atmosphere and weather being in a bad state in the time she lives in, which is one of her reasons for coming out into space. But the Second Doctor story The Enemy of the World, had Salamandar create the Sun-Catcher device to control Earth's weather around 2017 (or 2030 according to the Target novelisation), and the Gravitron was built on the moon to control weather in 2050 according to The Moonbase. I didn't expect such sloppiness on RTD's part.

That's not sloppiness, that's just wibbly-wobbly in effect. In all of the Whoverse, how many times has Earth been destroyed? How many times has the Titanic sunk? Heck, even the 20th and 21st centuries keep changing.

 

[Bacl]

That's not sloppiness, that's just wibbly-wobbly in effect.

Exactly. And this idea that there's all these points in time that MUST STAND, as ordained by God apparently, doesn't hold water when you consider that history is apparently constantly rewriting itself. It would take so little to make it so that the Mars Base never happened, or happened differently, or as we see from last night's episode--happen but without the complete loss of life.

I think that embracing this "It was meant to happen!" concept in a show about time travel, and about constantly changing the course of events, is self-defeating. It begs for nit-pickery.

Instead, they should have simply had the Doctor state that HE won't allow her to survive, because HE wants the future events to unfold, because HE loves humanity so much. That would have added more to his decision to walk away when he COULD save her.

Under the above scenario, his saving her and then finding that history stayed on track would be perfect to instigate his idea that he can do whatever the hell he wants, shape history and save all the people he wants to save: Timelord Victorious.

I still maintain the episode could have been awesome with just a little more respect for its audience. Less music beating home the desired emotion. The monster design was actually quite creepy, the shots of them softly dripping water in the background were very effective, but cut back on the quick-cuts to their faces while they mug at the camera, and avoid the zombie-shamble-cliches.

Axe the robot.

Overall, the biggest mistake was revealing to the audience the fate of the Mars Base and its crew right away. It was done in bad taste, over-emphasizing that everyone died again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again. It also took away from the tension that would have been created if the Doctor silently looked at them, us inferring what happens to them all from his expression, and then says soft yet firmly, "I can't help you. I have to go."

 

[Samurai8472]

"There are laws...there are laws of time and once upon a time there were people in charge of those laws but they died. They all died, do you know who that leaves? ME! It's taken me all these years to realize the

THE LAWS OF TIME ARE MINE!!! AND THEY WILL OBEY ME!!

"We're not just fighting the flood!! we're time fighting time ITSELF AND I'M GOING TO WIN!!

RTD wasn't joking when he said the doctor would be raging against the dark/death.

Bonkers indeed


Last time he was this defiant was when Astrid died

"I CAN DO ANYTHING!"

 

[The]

I see peeks of Number Six.....and The Valeyard...

 

[Bacl]

"There are laws...there are laws of time and once upon a time there were people in charge of those laws but they died. They all died, do you know who that leaves? ME! It's taken me all these years to realize the

THE LAWS OF TIME ARE MINE!!! AND THEY WILL OBEY ME!!

"We're not just fighting the flood!! we're time fighting time ITSELF AND I'M GOING TO WIN!!

RTD wasn't joking when he said the doctor would be raging against the dark/death.

I see peeks of Number Six.....and The Valeyard...

I actually loved these parts. What I did not see was the connection between this and the Doctor's death? Why does the Doctor start asking "Am I going to die now?" because of these realizations and actions? How does this equal his death?

I just don't see how point A connected to point d (death).

 

[Samurai8472]

He messed up big time and now the powers that be are coming for retribution.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

But... there are no "powers that be."

That's really the point. Who can judge him? Who has the right? Who has the jurisdiction?

 

[The]

I think the insinuation is that he actually fought against "time" itself, thinking he could be the superior. When, in fact, time has never needed Time Lords to "control" it. This fact is made evident by his inability to alter the larger outcome. He sees himself for what he's done, and when he spots the Ood-Watcher, he realizes this is a pivotal moment. He realizes that his destiny (whatever that may be) is nearing. And I don't think it's more of what he's done, or his realizations about his actual limitations, but rather seeing the initial harbinger of his doom appear to him at that very moment of clarity.

At least, that's how I took it...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Political power abhors a vacuum.

Someone's time experiments are now not being disturbed by the Timelords and will evolve into something useful.

When you get down to it, the time lords for all their technology, were basically people like you or me.

There were gods, Eternals and Guardians humouring the Timelords hamfisted claims to power because they kept the even lesser beings in order that no one of real importance had to get out of the spa pool to deal with that shite.

The Doctor seemed to think karma was real.

Okies.

if that dalek, who was trying to exterminate all life in the universe knew that Adelaide had a destiny in conflict with dalek destiny, she would have been a priority target, y'know unless it was a rebel dalek who wanted no part in the omislaughter so that the regular slaughter could continue, y'know like when Spike teamed up with Buffy to stop the apocalypse so that the happy meals with legs would stay free range.

 

[Bacl]

I think the insinuation is that he actually fought against "time" itself, thinking he could be the superior. When, in fact, time has never needed Time Lords to "control" it. This fact is made evident by his inability to alter the larger outcome. He sees himself for what he's done, and when he spots the Ood-Watcher, he realizes this is a pivotal moment. He realizes that his destiny (whatever that may be) is nearing. And I don't think it's more of what he's done, or his realizations about his actual limitations, but rather seeing the initial harbinger of his doom appear to him at that very moment of clarity.

At least, that's how I took it...

That's clever, but I am sad to say the cleverness is coming from you, not from anything actually said or done in the episode.

I especially like you comparing the Ood to a "watcher" role, that maybe if the Doctor has by now realized that prior to a regeneration you get certain warnings (such as watchers). But all this is our own inference.

 

[Meredith]

Tennant and Davies explain perfectly in the Confidential ep that followed on BBC3.

We see the Doctor become arrogant and acting as if he almost in control of everything, and can and will change things he wishes to. The has the selfishness of personal glory, Timelord Victorious. And if thats a new title The Doctor will start calling himself until he realises he has done wrong and gone too far, then im all for it.

We see The Doctor become something he has never wanted to become. He has changed, and as RTD says in the confidential, we see a changed Doctor when the exits the TArdis. Hes a changed man, but for the worse.

And i love that, its teritory that no other doctor has been to, a change in personality so drastic, it is his undoing.

Timelord Victorious. Please, Ten, start calling yourself this until the end is nigh, just before the regneration when you realise what has become of you and make amends just before you regnerate.

Maybe the "I'm sorry, I'm sooo Sorry" won't be something he says to others this time, but to himself.....

Like ITL I didn't know why the Doctor didn't just offer Adilade and Co the chance to survive but in the year 3050 or something...

That kinda misses the point. Since at that point he's convinced himself that he's the absolute Master (pun intended) of Time, he believes he can leave them back in their own time without any problems.

Opps!

The Captain: Too Dumb to Live http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToLive

She couldn't have snuck away in the middle of the night and hid away on some island somewhere, bought some hair dye, got a facelift, etc.... keeping a watchful eye on her grand daughter from afar.... No, much easier to off herself with yon laser gun....

Who shot themselves in the head in front of their kids? Didn't happen in this episode.

It wasn't in front of her daughter/granddaughter, the house was empty.

I'm sure I remember hearing a scream after the gunshot..

The fact remains though that she shot herself for no reason whatsoever other than to dramatically prove a point.

It would have been better if she was resentful and shot the doctor as he was getting into the tardis and then shot herself.... But she is too dumb to live....

She shot herself to put the past back on the right track, He was trying to change what he had no right to.

Unless Harvey Keitel showed up and cleaned up before anyone found the body, changing things back would be impossible.

Personally, I found the Captain to be an ungrateful sod.

"Thanks for saving me from the speeding bus, oh look a train I can step out in front of....."

 

[Chris3123]

Well the two survivors must have explained the Doctor's part in events. How else could they explain showing up on Earth moments after Bowie Base was nuked.

We know they did. "The mythical Doctor" was mentioned in a blurb on that webpage. (see image below).

The reports on that website said her death was mysterious. Not that she committed suicide.

Actually, it did refer to it as suicide:

 

[Lindley]

My only quibble there is with how easily she believed the Doctors story. He could just have easily been an agent from a competing nation there with a good story and a genetically engineered virus sent to sabotage their operation.

If a competing nation has a spaceship capable of teleporting them to Earth instantaneously, they're screwed anyway.

 

[Meredith]

With V and The Waters of Mars and any other science fiction show where the aliens want to steal water I propose this.....

Attaching these signs to every satellite we launch may be costly but it can save our bacon when it comes to crazy water craving aliens....

 

[Lindley]

Exactly. And this idea that there's all these points in time that MUST STAND, as ordained by God apparently, doesn't hold water when you consider that history is apparently constantly rewriting itself. It would take so little to make it so that the Mars Base never happened, or happened differently, or as we see from last night's episode--happen but without the complete loss of life.

I think that embracing this "It was meant to happen!" concept in a show about time travel, and about constantly changing the course of events, is self-defeating. It begs for nit-pickery.

Instead, they should have simply had the Doctor state that HE won't allow her to survive, because HE wants the future events to unfold, because HE loves humanity so much. That would have added more to his decision to walk away when he COULD save her.

Under the above scenario, his saving her and then finding that history stayed on track would be perfect to instigate his idea that he can do whatever the hell he wants, shape history and save all the people he wants to save: Timelord Victorious.

Have you read Dune? It's not terribly evident in the movie and mini, but in the book it's made quite obvious that Paul's visions of the future included Mua'dib's Jihad from the start. Throughout the book he keeps trying to see the way to avoiding that future, but he cannot: To know the future is to be trapped by it.

Similarly, this is a fixed point because the Doctor knows how it ends. Usually he knows the gist of how things are meant to be, at least enough to spot when something's wrong, but the details aren't part of his Bad-Wolf-esque time sight, so he's free to muck around and help out.

But the more he knows about a situation beforehand, the less he's able to change it.

I think perhaps a more interesting approach to this story would have been for the Doctor to keep trying to change things from the start, but essentially have things go all Final Destination on him. It could ultimately end the same way, with him simply "cheating" the situation by just snatching everyone out of harm's way.

 

[Australis]

Its not the first time he has done this though, in the episode Rose the Dr saved a family from sailing on the Titanic therefore saving them from certain death and no doubt changing history and that fixed point in time.

There's a good point. He saved the family (non fixed point) but didn't stop the Titianic from sailing (fixed point), which he could easily have done.

btw, PAAAAAGGGEEE SSSSTTTEEEEEETTTCCCHHHH!

shrink it down to 600, it'll still be big enough.

 

[Starkers]

When you get the DVD pause on the News Story that appears at the end. The other two survivors told that story of what happened on Mars and how she had saved the Earth from being infected.

Youtube

Trouble is that doesn't explain why she comitted suicide, though...and unexplicable? Shouldn't that be inexplicable?

I'm guessing the best way for the suicide to play would either be survivor guilt at losing her crew (which might be understandable but isn't exactly inspiring) or else because she thought she was infected, which still seems kinda limp.

I dunno, I can see suicide to save the world as inspiring, but suicide after you've been saved from certain death...is that really going to inspire her grand daughter? Could have been much better played, she could have stepped in front of a truck then at least they could play the accident card.

Or even better, what if the press assumed the Doctor had shot her?

 

[ITL]

It seems to me that the creative process behind WoM is inverted:

1) The Doctor needs to go "dark" to lead us into his final story. So...
2) Make him this way by arrogantly messing with a "fixed point". So...
3) Create a fixed point situation as a story.

Thus, the "take the survivors to a different time/place and let history record their deaths as before to preserve the fixed-point timeline" plothole can be ignored by the creative team. They didn't create a story that logically worked it's way to the Dark Doctor ending, they started with the Dark Doctor ending and found a way to make it happen.

Of course this is pure, baseless assumption on my part.