I rather object to the idea that there's some sort of conflict between DS9 fans on the one hand and TNG/Voyager/Enterprise fans on the other. Personally, I love TNG and DS9, I like Voyager to a certain extent and Enterprise just doesn't work for me (barring episodes with Vulcans in the '50s or Andreas Katsulas).
The Official: What do Niners Feel About Enterprise
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That's what I want you to think. It really caused a deep-seated loathing within me and I'm secretly plotting your doom.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2867495&postcount=18
That poster is a friend, so it pained me to do that.
Which is rarely ever.
You forgot the IMO, because this sentence of yours is most definately not a fact.
I had posted something offensive here, and after I had some time to sit back and cool off it was wrong to post it. So I apologize for what a wrote and erased. But basically you've got a responsibility to understanding that not everyone loves DS9, sees it as the pinnacle of Modern Trek, and that the writers involved are no Godsends.
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It's enough to make you...disillusioned.
I think that everyone here realizes that not everyone loves DS9. Who here said that everyone has to love it?
About posting something offensive and then having to edit it out? Just remember that TNZ is the only place on this board where you're allowed to post offensive things and then you don't have to bother with coming back and editing them out. It makes things easier that way.
Okie doke, I'll take a look.
I don't think that's entirely unreasonable, although I don't agree with it. BSG was darker than your average Trek, but it was by no means the darkest show I've ever seen. I've just finished watching The Wire, and BSG has nothing on that show. When in BSG did a police officer use a set of false teeth to bite a dead homeless man's nipples in order to make it look like he was murdered in a bizarre sexual assault? When in BSG was a family murdered in front of a 4 year old boy because the father talked shit about a local gang leader?
BSG was a font of morality when compared to some other shows, and certainly when compared to many real-life situations.
Not much unreasonable here, the mutiny arc on BSG was great because the plight of the mutineers was understandable given the circumstances. And Tom Zarek wasn't even kill-happy, in the course of the show he is responsible for only 11 deaths that I can remember, and he paid the price for that.
A very reasonable point of view, lots of people don't like the concept of a Borg queen.
As people do. They shouldn't have hated one another just for the sake of hating one another, the conflict would have had to stem from the characters rather than being forced by the writers. If it had been handled well then I have no problem with it.
I can understand his point here, but I've said for some time now that any mutiny story on Voyager should have happened in season 2 rather than dragging it out until season 7. Seven years would have been too long to keep that sort of animosity going. As for Janeway and Chakotay being at odds with one another, that happened a number of times (Scorpion, Equinox), all he is saying is that he wanted it to last longer and not be forgotten about.
Which some believe they were, in Endgame. I have no problem with Voyager managing to destroy the Borg threat, but it would have had to be done well and completely unlike the plots from Unimatrix Zero and Endgame.
This is the closest the post comes to being unreasonable, but even here I can see where he's coming from. When two characters that you like go head to head it can create some great drama, as it did in Equinox before Chakotay gave up and towed the line. I don't know if one should have killed the other, it depends on how the story played out.
This is actually one of the biggest complaints that Voyager fans have against the finale, there was no resolution to the emotional journey they undertook.
It's not in my opinion, it is in everyone's opinion. I don't expect everyone to like or dislike everything that I do, and I don't judge people for it. If somebody criticises something as not being to their taste then it is not my opinion that they have a right to their opinion, it is a fundamental right bestowed upon the populations of free societies. If you want to claim that people don't have a right to an opinion in your view then you are endorsing something very dangerous indeed.Anwar said:
I wasn't around at the time to see it so no harm done.
But I do find this offensive. When don't I do that? When have I insulted someone for not liking DS9? You have made this claim against me numerous times, and when I've asked you to provide evidence of me acting that way you never do because you can't. It doesn't exist. I am not that person.
Okay, I'm done after this post so I'll just address the current stuff.
That talk about wanting Voyager to be NuBSG dark is just the BS stuff the VOY Haters say so that they can destroy the Trekverse and turn the entire series, without exception, into your run of the mill darkfest where all idealists are either mad mockeries of or killed off quickly so only the hardened amoral types can take the stage.
Mutiny would have been dumb, and just gotten people killed without helping anything.
Borg without the Queen just makes them the Cubes shooting at VOY and only that without any real understanding of why the Borg are doing what they're doing. It's like the Vorta without Weyoun, if you want to use the Borg as an actual enemy and not just some attacking plot device.
Killing lots and lots of people would have been a lousy idea and turned people off. Even in BSG they never killed off anyone important, just nameless faceless extras.
The whole last season thing being some silly Janeway vs all the Borg vs Chakotay is a bad idea, one ship can't take on all the Borg by itself and by that point if Chakotay was still against Janeway they should've all died back in S2.
Resolution isn't necessary, the point was to get to Earth. We can imagine the rest. Look how stupidly it turned out when the Galactica got to Earth.
That's it. I'm done.
That talk about wanting Voyager to be NuBSG dark is just the BS stuff the VOY Haters say so that they can destroy the Trekverse and turn the entire series, without exception, into your run of the mill darkfest where all idealists are either mad mockeries of or killed off quickly so only the hardened amoral types can take the stage.
Mutiny would have been dumb, and just gotten people killed without helping anything.
Borg without the Queen just makes them the Cubes shooting at VOY and only that without any real understanding of why the Borg are doing what they're doing. It's like the Vorta without Weyoun, if you want to use the Borg as an actual enemy and not just some attacking plot device.
Killing lots and lots of people would have been a lousy idea and turned people off. Even in BSG they never killed off anyone important, just nameless faceless extras.
The whole last season thing being some silly Janeway vs all the Borg vs Chakotay is a bad idea, one ship can't take on all the Borg by itself and by that point if Chakotay was still against Janeway they should've all died back in S2.
Resolution isn't necessary, the point was to get to Earth. We can imagine the rest. Look how stupidly it turned out when the Galactica got to Earth.
That's it. I'm done.
The Borg (in television) were at their best as a force of nature, a true collective consciousness with no soul and no pity. The Queen was a needless "face" and Voyager's best Borg episode(s) (Scorpion) had no Queen, but lots of Borg.
The only reason I like the Borg Queen now is because of TrekLit and the Destiny novels; she's been rescued from the Scrappy heap.
It also makes them lame as an actual enemy, unless you have other enemies of a more individual and personal nature to play them off of via the contrast and direct threat. And since Voy Haters rejected every single one of VOY's aliens they had to use the Borg as the more personal enemy instead of the plot device force they originated as.
Ah, that's why Helo was killed off in the pilot, and Lee Adama didn't last an entire season!
Oh, wait...
The thing is, DS9 is nothing like that.
Hell, nuBSG is nothing like that. For all its dark grittiness and moral ambiguity and so on, the leads are hardly amoral people.
You're basically saying they want VOY not to be as dark as nuBSG, but darker than nuBSG.
I'd better make this good then!
And you know this based on pretending that you watched the show? Because anyone who watched the show knows that the characters were not amoral, they were not perfect but it is not amoral to have flaws. The characters which were guilty of great crimes were either either punished or they managed to redeem themselves, and sometimes both.
BSG ended by having hundreds of volunteers, including the entire main cast, embark upon what they thought was going to be a suicide mission in order to save one little girl because they didn't feel they could live with themselves if they allowed her to die. That is the height of morality and bravery, and I doubt that either you or I would have a strong enough character to do as they did.
Helping anything? It's a drama series, its purpose is to entertain while asking thoughtful questions. A mutiny based upon principled arguments would have satisfied both of those requirements; Janeway's innate desire to explore ends up getting some of her crew killed, Chakotay feels that they should beeline for home in order to save as many lives as possible. What makes that potential conflict interesting is that both of them are right, both of them have legitimate points of view. There's great thought-provoking drama to be had there.
Q Who, Best of Both Worlds, Scorpion; the three best Borg episodes, in my opinion.
Q: You can't outrun them. You can't destroy them. If you damage them, the essence of what they are remains. They regenerate and keep coming. Eventually you will weaken, your reserves will be gone. They are relentless.
That's what made the Borg so great for me, not some woman talking about seeking perfection.
Crashdown
Elosha
Billy
Jammer
Kat
Cally
Barolay
Dualla
Gaeta
Zarek
Elosha
Billy
Jammer
Kat
Cally
Barolay
Dualla
Gaeta
Zarek
I agree, dragging out any possible mutiny plot for 7 seasons would have been too long, if they were to do one it should have been around the end of season 2 and the beginning of season 3. However, Myasishchev explained that his mutiny idea is based around a conflict with the Borg which only arose in the later seasons. Presumably Janeway and Chokotay would have had better relations during the earlier seasons which was destroyed later on, much like how Gaeta admired Adama for most of BSG.
Stupidly? While I can understand how some people don't like the answers given about the show's big mysteries, as a character piece Daybreak was damn near perfect, in my opinion. These characters weren't ripped away from us, we had a chance to say goodbye to these people that we had grown to care about over their journey. I couldn't have asked for a more touching finale.
But none of this changes the fact that Myasishchev's post was not unreasonable. He did not just post "Voyager sucks", he did not insult the show or its fans, he explained what he wanted from the show and gave examples of what he thinks would have been a better show. I don't agree with all the things that he said, but I'm not going to say that he was being unreasonable because he voiced an opinion other than my own.
And you still haven't posted proof of me being an ass towards people who don't like DS9, so am I to assume that you realise that characterisation of me is incorrect and you will never accuse me of it again?
Hang on, I've got to hire out that aircraft carrier again and print off a new Mission Accomplished sign...
Oh, you're still here.
Q Who worked because they were just a plot device introduced by the real villain of the piece, Q.
Best of Both Worlds worked thanks to Locutus and the personal matter of involving Picard.
Scorpion worked due to the 8472 and the personal touch with Seven.
The Borg don't work when they are the true villains and there's no personal touch.
People dying in finales don't count, because by the end of the show the writers realize they can kill them off without it really affecting the future of the show anymore.
All those other folks really weren't that important or were just secondary characters who outlived their roles in the plot. I mean the core central characters.
A Maquis mutiny would have the flimsy justification of the Maquis hating the Fleeters and wanting their ship, not any real issues. Heck, I didn't like the mutiny in NuBSG either.
I expected a better finale than "God did everything" and an "Adam and Eve" plot.
Of course, by finally "taking responsibility" as you put it, all I've done is open up the floodgates for your oncoming smugness to flood the thread. That's what I get for accepting this as a standstill, and "growing up" as you put it.
Of course you'll ruin this by posting more stuff and not letting this just end...
Best of Both Worlds worked thanks to Locutus and the personal matter of involving Picard.
Scorpion worked due to the 8472 and the personal touch with Seven.
The Borg don't work when they are the true villains and there's no personal touch.
People dying in finales don't count, because by the end of the show the writers realize they can kill them off without it really affecting the future of the show anymore.
All those other folks really weren't that important or were just secondary characters who outlived their roles in the plot. I mean the core central characters.
A Maquis mutiny would have the flimsy justification of the Maquis hating the Fleeters and wanting their ship, not any real issues. Heck, I didn't like the mutiny in NuBSG either.
I expected a better finale than "God did everything" and an "Adam and Eve" plot.
Of course, by finally "taking responsibility" as you put it, all I've done is open up the floodgates for your oncoming smugness to flood the thread. That's what I get for accepting this as a standstill, and "growing up" as you put it.
Of course you'll ruin this by posting more stuff and not letting this just end...
They worked both ways, the Borg were intended at the point to be the next Big Bad of TNG after the abject failure of the Ferengi as a villain. They were not purely intended to be a plot device, they were thrilling in their own right.
In my opinion, Locutus never seemed to be controlling the Borg, he was merely their mouthpiece. The Borg queen however was clearly in charge of the Borg, and that is why I and many others do not like her.
I can only speak for myself, but I found Seven to be grating in Scorpion Part 2. I don't consider Scorpion Part 2 to be one of the best Borg episodes, only Part 1.
I disagree, I think that is when they are at their best. That's why I find Regeneration to be the best Borg episode since Scorpion, they were a faceless force of nature again.
Which is why I didn't count them and still had ten characters.
At least six of the characters I listed were considered part of the secondary cast, possibly seven but I'm unsure of the situation involving one of them. The secondary cast on BSG weren't treated much differently than the 7 listed in the opening credits, characters like Tigh and Tyrol had more material than some in the "main cast".
And so what if some of them had outlasted their usefulness? Voyager had plenty of characters like that, Chakotay, Kim and Neelix being the obvious three. They could have been killed off with very little impact upon the show.
Only if it was written badly, if you have good writers then you can provide solid reasoning for the mutiny, and it wouldn't have to be a straightforward Starfleet/Maquis split either. In my past suggestions about a mutiny I had Chakotay siding with Janeway, with Torres or Tuvok leading the mutineers.
That was the plot resolution while I was talking about the character resolution. The plot resolution is easily open for debate, I can see how many people wouldn't like that, but I think the character resolution was spot on.
Good gods...
If you don't want to post then don't post, I'm not making that decision for you. The only person I can make decisions for is me, and I have made the decision to post a response. Yes, I'm smug, and I'm unbearable, but I'm not going to change that because I'm quite happy being who I am.
If you want this to end then you're just going to have to end it yourself, like you said you would a few posts back.You can't just walk away, because in fact all this antagonism, all this arguing back and forth... it's just a way to mask the reality that you are actually falling desperately in love with one another and will soon engage in a passionate embrace, a la Han Solo and Leia in Empire or Trip and the guest star in whatever lame season 2 episode of ENT that was.
Make sure you post pictures, I'm sure everyone is looking forward to the moment when the tension finally reaches the breaking point and you just go for it.
Well, on that point, I cared about DS9's similarities to B5. So much so that I stayed away until they brought the Defiant onboard.
"Star Trek" is, by definition, about trekking. About going to new places.
DS9 took too long to understand that.
I did "Niners are mini-Satans".Goodness, who's making the tags for this thread?
I'm fine with this so long as I'm not the receiver.
I did "Ben V Anwar: Round 54" and "Ben being unbearably smug". I'm hoping to get that second one into the tag cloud.Goodness, who's making the tags for this thread?
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