The Official: What do Niners Feel About Enterprise

[RyuRoots]

I'm confused. So, Enterprise didn't do so well (although, really, 98 episodes ain't bad, Babylon 5 has what, 110?) because it was just a bad idea, but even if it hadn't been a bad idea it would have failed because loads of people just want to hate any new Trek show?

Well, yes. They were screwed either way: Either they don't do BoF and get criticized for that, or they do it from day one and get criticized for doing it. There was no love in anyone's heart for that show and they wanted it to fail.

It didn't help matters that the Fandom had become a Hatedom out to get the show by the time ENT started.

Channeling our energies to ENT now, are we? This sounds familiar.

 

[Anwar]

Nah, I always felt this way towards ENT. You have it backwards, it was my research into ENT that led to VOY and my stance on that.

 

[TheGodBen]

I wouldn't have done the show at all. I don't like prequels, and Trek is so inconsistent and contradictory over its past that any effort to make a show in that time period would have been (and was) futile.

Plus, "Birth of the Federation" would have just been seen as a Babylon 5 Knock-Off.

Trek's past is too well-defined for a good story to be told out of it, and too much of it is contradictory with history as we know it now to make a lot of sense.

Plus Birth of the Federation would be too similar to Babylon 5's storyline.

Anyways there'd be no drama because whatever threats the crew would encounter could never be anything really threatening because we KNOW Earth, Vulcan, any of the important worlds would survive. And it can't be some big event otherwise it would've been mentioned in the other shows.

Heck, the crew wouldn't be able to have any real adventures because none of the other shows ever said there were famous human explorers before TOS or that there was ever a guy named Archer.

Don't get me started on the "atomic weapons" thing either.

If you really have to go there, I was arguing this with other folk on general discussion WAY before the Niner thing heated up here.

I just think doing a prequel was a bad idea, especially at that time (2001) seeing how volatile the fandom/hatedom had become.

That, and Trek's past is too well-chronicled and in some cases too nonsensical to get a good show out of it (Atomic weapons anyone?).

Anwar, would you please stop hating on Enterprise? I've come to expect this of you TNG fans, you criticise Enterprise with these hate-filled rants and I've decided to fight back. If Enterprise had been exactly like TNG then you would have hated it just because it is Enterprise, and if TNG and Voyager had done the same stories as those on Enterprise you would have lapped it up and thought it was the best show ever. That's the sort of double standard I've come to expect from you TNG fans. I mean, you were judging the show before it even aired!

But then, I've come to expect this sort of garbage from the Enterprise haters. Once a hater, always a hater.

 

[Disillusioned]

I see what you did there.

 

[Jono]

I'm confused. So, Enterprise didn't do so well (although, really, 98 episodes ain't bad, Babylon 5 has what, 110?) because it was just a bad idea, but even if it hadn't been a bad idea it would have failed because loads of people just want to hate any new Trek show?

Firefly wishes it could have failed so well...oh, I made myself sad.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Enterprise gets a solid F from me.

First, I think the prequel idea wasn't a good one. To me Trek is about moving forward, not backward.

I'm not a canon whore, but I don't see how anyone can watch Enterprise and believe that it took place before TOS.

Both of those things bother me, but I would be willing to overlook them if the show had been....well, good.

We get so many retreads of episodes from other series. And the characters just completely left me cold. I didn't find a single one of them engaging or likeable in any way.

Despite Voyager's problems, at least some of the characters were interesting (to me anyway).

To those of you saying that Trek has too much of a "USA-centric" attitude.. Well I can see how it could be strange if you live in another country.

But remember the show was made in America, by Americans, written by almost all American writers, acted by mostly American actors and was specifically made for an American audience. So I think that is to be expected. Everything about it is American.

 

[Anwar]

Anwar, would you please stop hating on Enterprise?

A prequel was just a bad idea.

I've come to expect this of you TNG fans, you criticise Enterprise with these hate-filled rants and I've decided to fight back.

It's not my fault if the whole idea was flawed and couldn't work no matter how much hard work the writers put into it. I feel bad for B&B and the writers though, they could've written stuff on par with "Best of Both Worlds" and it still wouldn't have changed anything.

If Enterprise had been exactly like TNG then you would have hated it just because it is Enterprise, and if TNG and Voyager had done the same stories as those on Enterprise you would have lapped it up and thought it was the best show ever.

Seeing how ENT gets bashed with stuff like "It's just TNG in the pre-Fed times" there may not have been much of a difference except that TNG would have pulled it off better since back then the stuff they did in their stories hadn't been so oversatured in the franchise. Different times and all.

I mean, you were judging the show before it even aired!

Well, you were the one judging the show before it aired. I just observed it and thought it was unfair of you.

Once a hater, always a hater.

Yeah, people who hate VOY being a prime example. They even do big posts about reviewing every episode and it doesn't change a thing .

 

[TheGodBen]

A prequel was just a bad idea.

There you go again with your relentless hate, you NextGeners wouldn't even give the show a chance. I know this because I knew a NextGener back when Enterprise was launched and he refused to give it a chance therefore all you NextGeners must be the same as him. Your mildly worded and deceptively reasonable criticism of Enterprise proves my point that all you NextGeners are a bunch of relentless haters, so I'm going to embark on a personal crusade to stop you all.

It's not my fault if the whole idea was flawed and couldn't work no matter how much hard work the writers put into it.

Double standard. If TNG had been a prequel series about a temporal cold war and the birth of the Federation you would have loved it, but because it was Enterprise it was doomed to be attacked by you NextGeners.

I feel bad for B&B and the writers though, they could've written stuff on par with "Best of Both Worlds" and it still wouldn't have changed anything.

Exactly, Enterprise could have been the best Trek series of them all and you NextGeners still would have criticised it because its captain wasn't bald enough, or because they had a female Vulcan in the cast.

Seeing how ENT gets bashed with stuff like "It's just TNG in the pre-Fed times" there may not have been much of a difference except that TNG would have pulled it off better since back then the stuff they did in their stories hadn't been so oversatured in the franchise. Different times and all.

See, you admit your double standard. There's nothing that Enterprise could have done to make you like it, and when it tried to be like TNG you attacked it for that too! Once a hater, always a hater.

Well, you were the one judging the show before it aired. I just observed it and thought it was unfair of you.

Yeah, how dare I think that Voyager had an excellent premise which I was dying to see, or my opinion that Enterprise had a very promising premise during a very interesting time-period. I should be more cynical and closed-minded about new things.

 

[Anwar]

There you go again with your relentless hate, you NextGeners wouldn't even give the show a chance.

That was Niners, actually.

I know this because I knew a NextGener back when Enterprise was launched and he refused to give it a chance therefore all you NextGeners must be the same as him. Your mildly worded and deceptively reasonable criticism of Enterprise proves my point that all you NextGeners are a bunch of relentless haters, so I'm going to embark on a personal crusade to stop you all.

Go ahead, this is the DS9 forum meaning you'll find plenty of sycophantic stooges.

]Double standard. If TNG had been a prequel series about a temporal cold war and the birth of the Federation you would have loved it, but because it was Enterprise it was doomed to be attacked by you NextGeners.

Back when TNG was on that stuff was still relatively new and the writers weren't as burnt out or restricted since it was a syndicated show and not a network one. They'd have pulled it off better. But I doubt the TCW would've happened then because a serialized arc like that wasn't the norm.

Exactly, Enterprise could have been the best Trek series of them all and you NextGeners still would have criticised it because its captain wasn't bald enough, or because they had a female Vulcan in the cast.

Well, TOS had female Vulcans so that argument is out. Maybe another bald captian wouldn't have been so bad. Perhaps a Captain with facial scars is what we were due.

Once a hater, always a hater.

I agree on this, nice to see you've come around to my way of thinking.

Yeah, how dare I think that Voyager had an excellent premise which I was dying to see, or my opinion that Enterprise had a very promising premise during a very interesting time-period. I should be more cynical and closed-minded about new things.

Well, what you wanted for VOY was to take the chance to seize the Trek franchise, destroy all idealism and turn the Trekverse into a miserable place full of death, war and protagonists who couldn't brush their teeth without killing someone and whining about their personal issues and how much the crew wanted to kill one another. That was what you saw in its' "excellent premise".

With ENT, prequels are just bad news. Bottom line.

 

[TheGodBen]

That was Niners, actually.

Don't try and turn this around, you NextGeners started this with your relentless hate of Enterprise, don't blame me because I'm calling you out on it.

Back when TNG was on that stuff was still relatively new and the writers weren't as burnt out or restricted since it was a syndicated show and not a network one. They'd have pulled it off better. But I doubt the TCW would've happened then because a serialized arc like that wasn't the norm.

Double standard. When it was on TNG then it was the best thing ever, but because it was on Enterprise you decide that it was rubbish. You haters wanted Enterprise to fail.

Well, TOS had female Vulcans so that argument is out.

NextGeners complain that Vulcan females shouldn't have large, voluptuous breasts because copper-blooded species can't produce milk.

Maybe another bald captian wouldn't have been so bad.

Because NextGeners want everything to be like TNG, and if its not they hate it for doing something different.

Perhaps a Captain with facial scars is what we were due.

NextGeners would have complained that there should be no scars in the future because we didn't see anyone with a scar in TNG.

With ENT, prequels are just bad news. Bottom line.

Because you NextGeners were attacking the show before it even aired for not being TNG.

I agree on this, nice to see you've come around to my way of thinking.

Sure have.

 

[Anwar]

Don't try and turn this around

I'm not, I'm pointing out the group that TRULY hated ENT more than anyone else.

, you NextGeners started this with your relentless hate of Enterprise, don't blame me because I'm calling you out on it.

Call all you want, it was the Niners who were really out for ENT's blood.

Double standard. When it was on TNG then it was the best thing ever, but because it was on Enterprise you decide that it was rubbish. You haters wanted Enterprise to fail.

Well, to be frank I wasn't watching much Trek by then so I couldn't care less. But yes, I do think TNG's team would've pulled it off better. Maybe not the best thing ever, but better. Mainly because people weren't out to hate TNG for existing like they did with ENT, and the Niners weren't around then so the biggest source of hate wasn't there either.

NextGeners complain that Vulcan females shouldn't have large, voluptuous breasts because copper-blooded species can't produce milk.

Copper-blooded species shouldn't be able to mate with humans either, but tell that to TOSers . And TNG pretty much started the Ms Fanservice concept with Troi so I doubt they'd mind T'Pol.

Because NextGeners want everything to be like TNG, and if its not they hate it for doing something different.

I guess that means you hated Sisko when he had hair, huh .

NextGeners would have complained that there should be no scars in the future because we didn't see anyone with a scar in TNG.

Yeah we did, Picard had scars from the Borg thing but they just got better. And we had scars in TOS which is supposed to be after ENT.

Because you NextGeners were attacking the show before it even aired for not being TNG.

You're thinking of the Niners again, who hated ENT for not being DS9.

Sure have.

Ah yes, now you believe I am horrible for existing as a legitimate lifeform. Well, considering who I am talking to this isn't surprising.

 

[Jono]

Oh goody, we're back to this again.

 

[Disillusioned]

I actually find this a little amusing, personally.

 

[TheGodBen]

I find it very amusing. My arguments are so absurd as to be laughable, I didn't think he would actually try to debate them.

Ah yes, now you believe I am horrible for existing as a legitimate lifeform. Well, considering who I am talking to this isn't surprising.

I was parodying your absurd style of argument to show you how ridiculous and frustrating it is, and how the leaps of logic required to support such an argument are large and self-conflicting. It's okay for you to criticise Enterprise for having a bad premise and say that the writing wasn't as good as on TNG, but if a Niner said the exact same thing you would give out bloody hell over it and accuse them of a double standard. I wasn't calling you an illegitimate lifeform, I was trying to show you how dumb your arguments are by using them against you. If you found them dumb and frustrating when coming from me then imagine how all of us feel when you use them seriously.

By the way, you've just insulted Niners again, 3 times in the last 2 posts. I'm not going to click the NM button because I've just been calling out TNG fans, and even though I was clearly not being serious, and I actually am a big TNG fan myself, it could be perceived as hypocritical for me to be the one to notify on you. But if anyone else in this thread has a problem with you still attacking Niners after being told to stop by the moderators, they might just feel compelled to lodge a complaint and get you yet another warning.

 

[Anwar]

I find it very amusing. My arguments are so absurd as to be laughable, I didn't think he would actually try to debate them.

That's what I get for humoring people .

I was parodying your absurd style of argument to show you how ridiculous and frustrating it is, and how the leaps of logic required to support such an argument are large and self-conflicting.

I just don't like prequels, bottom line. Especially since TOS wasn't designed with a prequel in mind and was so contradictory anyways.

It's okay for you to criticise Enterprise for having a bad premise and say that the writing wasn't as good as on TNG, but if a Niner said the exact same thing you would give out bloody hell over it and accuse them of a double standard.

Mainly because with latter group, you'll see them being insulting towards the rest of Modern trek while it almost never happens with TNG fans. At least TNG fans would have rational reasoning for not liking ENT.

I wasn't calling you an illegitimate lifeform, I was trying to show you how dumb your arguments are by using them against you. If you found them dumb and frustrating when coming from me then imagine how all of us feel when you use them seriously.

Listen to VOY criticisms, now THAT is dumb and frustrating.

But if anyone else in this thread has a problem with you still attacking Niners after being told to stop by the moderators, they might just feel compelled to lodge a complaint and get you yet another warning.

Which is why I only did it in response to your TNG bashing, see I'm playing by your rules now. How does it feel?

 

[TheGodBen]

That's what I get for humoring people .

Yes, because I was being incredibly serious when I said that nobody in the future would have a scar.

I just don't like prequels, bottom line. Especially since TOS wasn't designed with a prequel in mind and was so contradictory anyways.

And I have no problem with you having that opinion, it's a perfectly reasonable criticism albeit one I don't happen to share. What was unreasonable about the above scenario was me criticising all TNG fans based upon your reasonable criticism of Enterprise, and that's the point I'm trying to get through to you. However, if a Niner makes a reasonable criticism about Enterprise, or Voyager, you accuse them of a double standard.

Mainly because with latter group, you'll see them being insulting towards the rest of Modern trek while it almost never happens with TNG fans. At least TNG fans would have rational reasoning for not liking ENT.

I don't insult the rest of modern Trek and I'm a Niner. I don't like Voyager, but I'm a big TNG fan and a little Enterprise fan.

Listen to VOY criticisms, now THAT is dumb and frustrating.

I disagree, while some of the criticisms against Voyager and its writers are unfair, not all of them are. Some of them are perfectly valid, reasonable complaints, and I agree with many of the complaints you have against Voyager, but for some reason because I'm a Niner all complaints I have against Voyager have to be insane. It's absurd.

Which is why I only did it in response to your TNG bashing, see I'm playing by your rules now. How does it feel?

Except I was clearly doing it in jest since I am a big TNG fan myself, and even if I do get a warning I can take the hit because my account is in very good standing. Yours is not.

I advised you to put me on ignore for exactly this reason, you react to me and you always fall back on that old "evil Niner" BS. Take some responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming me for "making" you say things you don't want to say.

 

[Anwar]

Yes, because I was being incredibly serious when I said that nobody in the future would have a scar.

VOY Haters have complained about sillier things.

However, if a Niner makes a reasonable criticism about Enterprise, or Voyager, you accuse them of a double standard.

Because their criticisms AREN'T reasonable.

I disagree, while some of the criticisms against Voyager and its writers are unfair

Replace "some" with "most", though its' mainly just the ones on these forums. Though I've found even harsher ones on other sites, if you can believe that.

Except I was clearly doing it in jest since I am a big TNG fan myself, and even if I do get a warning I can take the hit because my account is in very good standing. Yours is not.

I've only ever had one infraction here, ever. And they can't do it to me again for taking part in this banality.

Take some responsibility for your own actions

What, like you and the other Voy-Haters here?

 

[Jono]

Check the tags, one is "niners are mini-satans".

I wish these mythical VOY Haters I keep hearing about existed. They sound like an interesting bunch who seem to be behind everything bad of modern Trek...they're like the Stonemasons or the Illuminati of Trek-fandom...always in the shadows and never up to anything good. They probably travelled back in time and got TOS cancelled. Time-Haters...I've stolen that from somewhere...

Edit: It's from the Chappelle Show. Thank you Google!

 

[TheGodBen]

VOY Haters have complained about sillier things.

Prove it. Provide me with the link.

Because their criticisms AREN'T reasonable.

Except when they are, which is the vast majority of the time.

Replace "some" with "most", though its' mainly just the ones on these forums. Though I've found even harsher ones on other sites, if you can believe that.

No, I wont replace "some" with "most" because if I did I would be lying. Most of the criticisms levelled against Voyager are reasonable and are based upon individual preference. I've seen some unreasonable criticisms, but they are well in the minority.

I've only ever had one infraction here, ever. And they can't do it to me again for taking part in this banality.

Linky:

Anwar, you need to knock it the fuck off with your persecution complex and your trolling of the Niners, and you need to do so immediately. Continue it in any thread, anywhere on this board, and the heavy, mailed fist of T'Bonz will come down hard upon you. As it stands now, you get an infraction for trolling; you were warned long ago what would come of your continued attacks on the people here.

Linky link:

Here is ANOTHER one of these sorts of remarks, Anwar.

Since I'm catching it on the same sweep, I count is part of the other friendly I just gave you. But if you make another remark like this - taking shots at this fan group (as opposed to the show itself), you WILL be warned...and further, reported to Bonz, who has indicated to me that if you do not stop this poor-pitiful-me-victim-of-Niners routine, you will be looking at a ban from this board.

Now, that is the direction you are headed. Whether you continue to be allowed to participate on TrekBBS is entirely up to you. But I can tell you - not just I, but the entire staff of this board - up to and including Bonz, has had about enough of this.

Take some responsibility for your own actions

What, like you and the other Voy-Haters here?

What responsibility? I've criticised a television show. That's not irresponsible behaviour, that's free expression at its most innocuous.

 

[Disillusioned]

It seems like some of the fans just can't stand the idea of someone else not liking whatever particular movie or series it is that they like. I've been seeing that in pretty much every forum, too. That also doesn't mean there's any need to get person. Take our disagreement about the ENT episode "Cogenitor" for example. Neither one of us got personal with one another, it was simply a disagreement over an episode. I've never understood why so many people feel the need to go from "well I just can't agree with you" to "you're a [insert insulting noun here] for not agreeing with me!" I feel this is the number one reason for the fanbase being as fractured as it is.