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State-run health care

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Which Americans are against 2-1.
You mean like this?

pubopt.png


Source. The article goes on to analyze each poll (a couple of which are biased), but overall is good evidence that most Americans support a public option.

See, I can do numbers too, except I don't pull them out of thin air.


Has anyone told you lately that you are awesome? :D :techman:
:)

I like to stay informed. Did you see Keith Olberman's Special Comment on health care? It was very moving.
 
Actually the term "liberal" has changed its meaning many times in history, and I'm not sure the way Americans understand "liberal" is the same as elsewhere in the world (where I'm from it's more similar to what Americans think of as "libertarian" for example).

It isn't liberalism that's changed, but the circumstances. Libertarianism/European liberalism is an example of the kind of left-wing conservatism RJDiogenes referred to--rooted in the past, pursuing a strategy designed for the preindustrial age and long since obsolete.

What they've lost sight of is that the small government advocated by 17th and 18th century liberalism was a means to an end, not an end unto itself. The end goal, to quote Locke, was always to protect the "life, liberty, and property of the individual" from "political, economic, and religious tyranny". In Locke's day--and Thomas Jefferson's--a small, weak government was an effective means to that end, because governments themselves were the principle source of all three.

But that isn't true any more. Democracy has hobbled government's ability to tyrannize, while at the same time empowering individuals enough that they can, in organized groups, tyrannize their fellow citizens all on their own. For more than 100 years now, since the Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad non-decision at the very least, corporations have been the source of economic tyranny in the US. For religious tyranny you have the religious right, and for the political there are the KKK, the Know Nothings and their modern descendants, the militia movement. Among others.

American liberals and European social democrats have recognized that things have changed and have successfully enlisted democratic government as a weapon against the real threats. Europe today, along with the New Deal and the Civil Rights eras in the US, show how well it works.

All of this is something of a simplification. Libertarianism is a broader umbrella than this implies, for one thing. But as a raison d'être for modern liberalism, I think it's a good start. And to bring it back to the main topic of the thread, the current US health care system is exactly the kind of economic tyranny that good (liberal) government can and should prevent.

I'm sorry to say, though, that it looks like the current bill has been too watered down to make a real difference. It still has some good parts--like no more "pre-existing condition" crap--but it won't actually reduce costs. 1, 2.


Marian
 
You mean like this?

pubopt.png


Source. The article goes on to analyze each poll (a couple of which are biased), but overall is good evidence that most Americans support a public option.

See, I can do numbers too, except I don't pull them out of thin air.


Has anyone told you lately that you are awesome? :D :techman:
:)

I like to stay informed. Did you see Keith Olberman's Special Comment on health care? It was very moving.

Yes, I did. Normally I find his Special Comments a bit self-indulgent, but this one was excellent.
 
You mean like this?

pubopt.png


Source. The article goes on to analyze each poll (a couple of which are biased), but overall is good evidence that most Americans support a public option.

See, I can do numbers too, except I don't pull them out of thin air.


Has anyone told you lately that you are awesome? :D :techman:
:)

I like to stay informed. Did you see Keith Olberman's Special Comment on health care? It was very moving.

TSQ has always been awesome. Just in different ways.
 
i'm reminded of two things here:

polls are only an indicator of how people respond to a particular question. you can claim 90% of people want Texan independence if you ask the question in a particular way.

the other is that great quote: Lies, damned lies and statistics.
 
^Very true. Also why I linked that particular article. It provides all the questions as they were worded and analyzes different aspects of the polling technique, giving the reader an informed understanding of the level of (or absence of) bias in each poll.

I like to stay informed. Did you see Keith Olberman's Special Comment on health care? It was very moving.

Thanks for the link- I rarely watch Olberman or Maddow because they usually bring up issues that make me angry. This is wonderful, especially since he has a personal story to talk about.

I put Michael Moore's Sick on pause to listen to this.
I'm happy to share it. :)
 
We are reminded of another way to reduce health care costs by the story of the cheerleader horribly affected by the Swine Flu shot. Alternative methods such as Rife, Colloidal Silver, MMS, etc should be given more attention instead of being shot down by the gov't and pharmaceutical companies Obama climbed into bed with.


Natural Medicine Produces Stunning Recovery from Vaccine-Induced Debility for Cheerleader Desiree Jennings

Dr. Buttar applied natural intravenous solutions including chelating agents, anti-oxidants, nutritional support, and NATURE-BASED anti-viral compounds (colloidal silver) over a period of 36 hours which resulted in a stunning and amazing turnaround for Desiree from the seizures she was experiencing.
There's a short video at the end of the story where she makes a statement. You can see a world of difference from the first video.

But as costly as the best health care on the planet is it still pales in comparison how how expensive this plan is. And since when does the government do anything on time, on budget and with quality. Obviously rhetorical.
 
Since they poll registered, likely voters and not simply Joe Blow off the street their polls do reflect the conservative nature of the country.

They're selective about who they listen to... so it reflects the nature of the country as a whole?
There's a non sequitur argument for you. 'Joe Blow off the street' doesn't represent 'the country' then? TLS said 'Americans', not 'registered, likely voters'.
 
Since they poll registered, likely voters and not simply Joe Blow off the street their polls do reflect the conservative nature of the country.
Oh?

It isn't liberalism that's changed, but the circumstances. Libertarianism/European liberalism is an example of the kind of left-wing conservatism RJDiogenes referred to--rooted in the past, pursuing a strategy designed for the preindustrial age and long since obsolete.

What they've lost sight of is that the small government advocated by 17th and 18th century liberalism was a means to an end, not an end unto itself. The end goal, to quote Locke, was always to protect the "life, liberty, and property of the individual" from "political, economic, and religious tyranny". In Locke's day--and Thomas Jefferson's--a small, weak government was an effective means to that end, because governments themselves were the principle source of all three.

But that isn't true any more. Democracy has hobbled government's ability to tyrannize, while at the same time empowering individuals enough that they can, in organized groups, tyrannize their fellow citizens all on their own. For more than 100 years now, since the Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad non-decision at the very least, corporations have been the source of economic tyranny in the US. For religious tyranny you have the religious right, and for the political there are the KKK, the Know Nothings and their modern descendants, the militia movement. Among others.

American liberals and European social democrats have recognized that things have changed and have successfully enlisted democratic government as a weapon against the real threats. Europe today, along with the New Deal and the Civil Rights eras in the US, show how well it works.

All of this is something of a simplification. Libertarianism is a broader umbrella than this implies, for one thing. But as a raison d'être for modern liberalism, I think it's a good start. And to bring it back to the main topic of the thread, the current US health care system is exactly the kind of economic tyranny that good (liberal) government can and should prevent.
Well said, although I disagree that the Left Wing is as liberal as you give it credit for.

I'm sorry to say, though, that it looks like the current bill has been too watered down to make a real difference. It still has some good parts--like no more "pre-existing condition" crap--but it won't actually reduce costs. 1, 2.
And there's the crux of the matter. I couldn't possibly care less if there's a public option or not; the problem is the cost of the actual health care, and no reimbursement reform will ultimately be more than a band-aid if that's not addressed.
 
Well said,

Thanks. Whenever I post something like this, I'm always afraid I've overlooked something blindingly obvious and will look like an idiot. The quotes in my sig are as much a reminder to myself as a message to anyone else.


although I disagree that the Left Wing is as liberal as you give it credit for.
You understand that by liberals I don't mean Democrats, right? :)


Marian
 
We are reminded of another way to reduce health care costs by the story of the cheerleader horribly affected by the Swine Flu shot. Alternative methods such as Rife, Colloidal Silver, MMS, etc should be given more attention instead of being shot down by the gov't and pharmaceutical companies Obama climbed into bed with.

Alternatively, if fans of alternative medicine want it to be taken seriously they should try to scientifically demonstrate its effectiveness. Things like "colloidal silver" are not recognized by the medical community because there is no evidence that they work. Aside from the fact that it's dangerous to trust "medicines" that have no proven value, ingesting silver can be dangerous in it's own right. You'd be better off recommending homeopathy... completely and utterly useless, but at least you can't get any side effects from water.

This has nothing to do with big pharm or politics. It has to do with this little thing called science.
 
Colloidal silver works great... ...if you want to become blue...

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq8C0GknwAM[/yt]
 
I'm all for ingesting silver. In fact, huge amout on it. Short of decapitation, is the only thing that can stop vampires and werewolves.
 
We are reminded of another way to reduce health care costs by the story of the cheerleader horribly affected by the Swine Flu shot. Alternative methods such as Rife, Colloidal Silver, MMS, etc should be given more attention instead of being shot down by the gov't and pharmaceutical companies Obama climbed into bed with.


Natural Medicine Produces Stunning Recovery from Vaccine-Induced Debility for Cheerleader Desiree Jennings

Dr. Buttar applied natural intravenous solutions including chelating agents, anti-oxidants, nutritional support, and NATURE-BASED anti-viral compounds (colloidal silver) over a period of 36 hours which resulted in a stunning and amazing turnaround for Desiree from the seizures she was experiencing.

You have some fairly interesting ideas about what constitutes 'natural' versus 'unnatural' medicine if chelating agents and colloidal silver are 'natural'. The latter, for example, is produced using electrolysis which is apparently now NATURE BASED. The former, and from your list I'd put my money on this being the therapeutic ingredient in her 'all natural' cocktail, is the standard treatment for heavy metal toxicity produced by those pharmaceutical monsters Obama has climbed in bed with, and is as 'natural' or 'unnatural' as pretty much anything else they make.
 
You mean like this?

pubopt.png


Source. The article goes on to analyze each poll (a couple of which are biased), but overall is good evidence that most Americans support a public option.

See, I can do numbers too, except I don't pull them out of thin air.


Has anyone told you lately that you are awesome? :D :techman:
:)

I like to stay informed. Did you see Keith Olberman's Special Comment on health care? It was very moving.

Keith Olbermann? Yeah, he'll tell it to you in an unbiased fashion! :lol:


ETA - Um, he fails to admit that the true intent here is to move to a single payer option, as Obama said he supports. It's quite disingenuous on his part not to admit that. Then again, he's speaking to his own audience for the most part who hang on his every word.
 
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Has anyone told you lately that you are awesome? :D :techman:
:)

I like to stay informed. Did you see Keith Olberman's Special Comment on health care? It was very moving.

Keith Olbermann? Yeah, he'll tell it to you in an unbiased fashion! :lol:


ETA - Um, he fails to admit that the true intent here is to move to a single payer option, as Obama said he supports. It's quite disingenuous on his part not to admit that. Then again, he's speaking to his own audience for the most part who hang on his every word.

Are private insurers going to be outlawed?
NO!
 
Has anyone told you lately that you are awesome? :D :techman:
:)

I like to stay informed. Did you see Keith Olberman's Special Comment on health care? It was very moving.

Keith Olbermann? Yeah, he'll tell it to you in an unbiased fashion! :lol:
I never said he would. He's clearly very liberal. He also never makes the claim that he's anything but a liberal, unlike some "news" folk who say they're "fair and balanced".
You failed to address the data I provided which shows that your statement about Americans being against a public option "2 to 1" is complete and utter bollocks. Most Americans are for it.
 
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