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Hypothectical Illiana Ghemor/Dukat thought...

Joel_Kirk

Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
Of course, it's at the whim of the writers and editors, but I was thinking: With all that Illiana Ghemor went through with Dukat--in 'Fearful Symmetry'--during the occupation, after the occupation, and during the Federation move-in...wouldn't there be a well...child involved?

Dukat obviously had a little fetish for Bajoran women, and Ghemor looked like a Bajoran woman during the time she was held by Dukat...

A thought that occurred was maybe Tora Ziyal could have been conceived during that time, especially since we don't know much of her mother...:vulcan:
 
Wouldn't have Ziyal's mother had to have been an actual Bajoran? Ziyal has the nose ridges from her Bajoran mother.
Ghemor was genetically a Cardassian, so any child she had with Dukat would have to be 100% Cardassian. Right?
 
Her mum was a Bajoran. she appeared in Indiscretion, didn't she? certainly that was the point of the episode, dukat and kira looking for ziyal's mom
 
Heh, heh, heh...

You can tell I have too much on my mind, and doing several things at once...:lol:

Wouldn't have Ziyal's mother had to have been an actual Bajoran? Ziyal has the nose ridges from her Bajoran mother.
Ghemor was genetically a Cardassian, so any child she had with Dukat would have to be 100% Cardassian. Right?

You are correct...

Her mum was a Bajoran. she appeared in Indiscretion, didn't she? certainly that was the point of the episode, dukat and kira looking for ziyal's mom

You are also correct...

Let me amend my initial post:

With all that went on with Ghemor and Dukat, is it possible that there is 'Cardassian' offspring 'out there' somewhere?

Aside from that, I do recall Dukat had another Bajoran/Cardassian kid later on in DS9 that was not Ziyal...but with a married Bajoran woman.

*sigh* Dukat...Dukat...Dukat...
 
Of course, it's at the whim of the writers and editors, but I was thinking: With all that Illiana Ghemor went through with Dukat--in 'Fearful Symmetry'--during the occupation, after the occupation, and during the Federation move-in...wouldn't there be a well...child involved?

Dukat obviously had a little fetish for Bajoran women, and Ghemor looked like a Bajoran woman during the time she was held by Dukat...

A thought that occurred was maybe Tora Ziyal could have been conceived during that time, especially since we don't know much of her mother...:vulcan:
Tora does actually appear in the second or third Terok Nor books, and since they are consistant with FS and the rest of the DS9R that means she was a real person.
 
Didn't Illiana's surgical alterations include having her ovaries removed (and put on ice to be "reinstalled"), or am I thinking of some other book?
 
^I believe that is correct, yes. It was to make sure there weren't any "accidents" that would get people wondering why "Kira" gave birth to a half-Cardassian child. So there's no chance of Iliana conceiving.
 
^^

Ah, yeah...

I do remember reading that...

Reminds me, I need to get up-to-date with The Soul Key book!
 
(not to mention the fact that Ziyal was 19 in Indiscretion... Iliana couldn't have been undercover for that long, considering Kira's age...)

:sigh: What has the world come to? Now people even want lame and stupid storylines from novels to be used to retcon canon (and good) backstories from the actual show. :cardie:
 
(not to mention the fact that Ziyal was 19 in Indiscretion... Iliana couldn't have been undercover for that long, considering Kira's age...)

:sigh: What has the world come to? Now people even want lame and stupid storylines from novels to be used to retcon canon (and good) backstories from the actual show. :cardie:

Wait, you thought Fearfull Symmetry was lame...? :vulcan:

*gasp*

My initial post wasn't actually thought out: I forgot that Illiana was originally Cardassian, had her ovaries removed before she was sent on assignment...which would have prevented any offspring from being born; and even if there were any offspring, there would have been a full-blooded Cardassian child.

Nothing is being retconned, rebooted...re-imagined...remade...put into an alternate universe...or injected with red matter.
 
(not to mention the fact that Ziyal was 19 in Indiscretion... Iliana couldn't have been undercover for that long, considering Kira's age...)

:sigh: What has the world come to? Now people even want lame and stupid storylines from novels to be used to retcon canon (and good) backstories from the actual show. :cardie:

Wait, you thought Fearfull Symmetry was lame...? :vulcan:
I think that this particular storyline is lame, stupid and far-fetched, being very out of character for Dukat. But I guess that doesn't matter much, since apparently these days the only characterization you need for him is "he is eeeeevil so he does eeeeevil things". :shifty:
 
(not to mention the fact that Ziyal was 19 in Indiscretion... Iliana couldn't have been undercover for that long, considering Kira's age...)

:sigh: What has the world come to? Now people even want lame and stupid storylines from novels to be used to retcon canon (and good) backstories from the actual show. :cardie:

Wait, you thought Fearfull Symmetry was lame...? :vulcan:
I think that this particular storyline is lame, stupid and far-fetched, being very out of character for Dukat. But I guess that doesn't matter much, since apparently these days the only characterization you need for him is "he is eeeeevil so he does eeeeevil things". :shifty:

;) I understand...
 
But I guess that doesn't matter much, since apparently these days the only characterization you need for him is "he is eeeeevil so he does eeeeevil things". :shifty:

Well, having watched DS9 in its original run and having watched a lot of it again on DVD not long ago, here's what I learned about Dukat: he's occasionally charming, he's smart, he can be funny... and he's evil, and he does evil things.
 
But I guess that doesn't matter much, since apparently these days the only characterization you need for him is "he is eeeeevil so he does eeeeevil things". :shifty:

Well, having watched DS9 in its original run and having watched a lot of it again on DVD not long ago, here's what I learned about Dukat: he's occasionally charming, he's smart, he can be funny... and he's evil, and he does evil things.
Ah, here we go again. :rolleyes:

He does things that make sense for the character, because he has motivations and traits that are consistent, like well-written characters do. Not because the writers have decided "let's have Dukat do evil things". (Well, not until season 7, anyway. :shifty:)

A well written and consistent character doesn't change his motives and mentality completely for no apparent reason. A character who is portrayed as being largely motivated by a need to play the hero is his own little scenarios and to make people adore him, and who goes to great lengths to emotionally manipulate and seduce women that he could very easily force himself onto - because he wants them to love him and be grateful to him and think that he's a great guy; that guy is not a person who would be interested in keeping a woman as a drugged up prisoner and repeatedly rape her to get his kicks. Not because he's a nice guy, but because that's not how he gets his kicks. There's nothing there for him, he just wouldn't be the least bit interested in doing that.

By your logic, since Tony Soprano was a bad man who did evil things, The Sopranos writers should have made him into a child abuser in the finale. Why not, I mean that's evil. He's an evil guy, he does evil things. Right? Right? Because that's all that matters. Doesn't matter which evil things. Doesn't matter if they actually make sense for his character, whether he has motivations to do them, whether he was ever portrayed as having the mentality to be interested to do those particular 'evil things'. Nope. Eeevil people do eeevil things. That's good writing for you... NOT. :vulcan:
 
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Well, I choose to see it as Iliana being his safety valve - she was the extreme outlet that allowed him to be witty and urbane and civilized the rest of the time.
 
A character who is portrayed as being largely motivated by a need to play the hero is his own little scenarios and to make people adore him, and who goes to great lengths to emotionally manipulate and seduce women that he could very easily force himself onto - because he wants them to love him and be grateful to him and think that he's a great guy; that guy is not a person who would be interested in keeping a woman as a drugged up prisoner and repeatedly rape her to get his kicks.

But that's just it. Iliana wasn't a person to him. Her own personality had been elided and replaced with a duplicate of Kira's personality. He was obligated to protect the real Kira and stay away from her, so he was unable to pursue and satisfy his cravings for her. So that created an exceptional situation, one for which the duplicate Kira was a release.

And I think you're making too great a distinction between Dukat's seductions and rape. He wasn't on an equal footing with these women. They were essentially his slaves. He played it as romancing them and winning them over, but that was how he lied to himself, rationalized his actions as benevolent. But the truth was that he was using, dominating, and exploiting them to satisfy his own lusts. He had all the power, all the unfair advantages. I mean, come on, he stole Kira Meru from her family and gave her the very limited "choice" of either prostituting herself to him or living a short, unpleasant life as a slave laborer. To say that's fundamentally different from rape is profoundly naive. Just as a gilded cage is still a prison, so a gentle seduction of a woman who has no choice is still an act of coercion. Dukat was a victimizer and user of women many times over. He just cloaked it in a veneer of civility and kindness for the sake of his hypocritical self-image. But since Iliana "didn't exist," since nobody knew about her and nothing he did to her mattered, he was able to be more honest about what he truly was at the core.
 
A character who is portrayed as being largely motivated by a need to play the hero is his own little scenarios and to make people adore him, and who goes to great lengths to emotionally manipulate and seduce women that he could very easily force himself onto - because he wants them to love him and be grateful to him and think that he's a great guy; that guy is not a person who would be interested in keeping a woman as a drugged up prisoner and repeatedly rape her to get his kicks.

But that's just it. Iliana wasn't a person to him. Her own personality had been elided and replaced with a duplicate of Kira's personality. He was obligated to protect the real Kira and stay away from her, so he was unable to pursue and satisfy his cravings for her. So that created an exceptional situation, one for which the duplicate Kira was a release.

And I think you're making too great a distinction between Dukat's seductions and rape. He wasn't on an equal footing with these women. They were essentially his slaves. He played it as romancing them and winning them over, but that was how he lied to himself, rationalized his actions as benevolent. But the truth was that he was using, dominating, and exploiting them to satisfy his own lusts. He had all the power, all the unfair advantages. I mean, come on, he stole Kira Meru from her family and gave her the very limited "choice" of either prostituting herself to him or living a short, unpleasant life as a slave laborer. To say that's fundamentally different from rape is profoundly naive. Just as a gilded cage is still a prison, so a gentle seduction of a woman who has no choice is still an act of coercion. Dukat was a victimizer and user of women many times over. He just cloaked it in a veneer of civility and kindness for the sake of his hypocritical self-image.
We've been through this already on the DS9 subforum- here.

This is exactly what I'm talking about - IMO, your argument really boils down to "he is evil so he'll do evil things". "He uses and victimizes women, so that means he'll do keep a woman as a drugged up prisoner and rape her all the time."

No it doesn't, because people don't function like that - they do things that they are motivated to do. I'm sure that real life profilers would frown if someone told them that a drug dealer/murderer who's suspected of killing other dealers is their likely suspect for serial killings of random old ladies, because "it's all murder, so it's as bad as each other". I think they'd also dismiss the idea that an abuser who targets girls in their early teens is a likely suspect for the abuse of 4-year old boys.

And I think you're making too great a distinction between Dukat's seductions and rape. He wasn't on an equal footing with these women. They were essentially his slaves. He played it as romancing them and winning them over, but that was how he lied to himself, rationalized his actions as benevolent. But the truth was that he was using, dominating, and exploiting them to satisfy his own lusts. He had all the power, all the unfair advantages. I mean, come on, he stole Kira Meru from her family and gave her the very limited "choice" of either prostituting herself to him or living a short, unpleasant life as a slave laborer.
And what makes you think that I have not been aware of that all the time? This is just preaching to the converted.

But there is a very simple distinction between Dukat's seductions and literal rape: he wants to win hearts and minds rather than just to physically enslave people, because this guy needs to believe that he is loved and admired, that people think of him as a great guy and feel grateful to him... and what's more, he needs to believe in that self-image. Whether you think that makes him better or worse is a matter of anyone's opinion. (One might even see him as more dangerous, as his abuse and exploitation of women like Meru and his control over them was more insidious and went deeper.) In any case, that's really one of his most essential character traits that's been shown onDS9 (and that really made him a more interesting character). How is it a good idea to completely contradict that in a novel?


But since Iliana "didn't exist," since nobody knew about her and nothing he did to her mattered, he was able to be more honest about what he truly was at the core.
Oh come on. As if he couldn't have treated Kira Meru and every other 'comfort woman' the same way if he wanted to? Now that is profoundly naive. You said it yourself, he was in a position of absolute power over these women. Meru did not "exist" anymore either since becoming a comfort woman, her children thought she was dead and to most Bajorans she was a 'collaborator' so they didn't care about her, and as for Cardassians, as if any of them cared what happened to her and how she was treated?! Who, apart from Meru herself, was he going to win over? Bajorans in general? Cardassians? None of these women had anyone to protect them and few cared what became of them. Dukat could have treated them any way he wanted, so why didn't he? If he ever needed "safety valves" to treat as cruelly as possible without caring how they felt, any of them could have served the purpose. Dukat's hypocritical self-image is not just about public image or opinions of others. It's his own psychological need. He needed to believe that he loved those women and that they loved them, that he was a great guy helping those poor people who were like "children".
 
This is exactly what I'm talking about - IMO, your argument really boils down to "he is evil so he'll do evil things".

No, that's not what I'm saying, and I resent you dismissing my position with a straw-man substitute like that. I'm a professional writer. I don't reduce characterizations to stupid simplifications like "evil." What I'm saying is that Dukat has always been a victimizer and abuser, that it's disguised by a thin veneer for the sake of appearances, and that Iliana is a unique case which allows him to feel free to cast aside the veneer. Dukat's pattern is to manipulate and coerce women into submission through a pattern of seduction and intimidation that makes him feel that he's offering them a benevolent alternative to hardship, even though he's just as responsible for the hardship. Ultimately, he's still dominating them. He's still getting off on his power over them. That's what fundamentally drives him. He wants to be worshipped. He wants his subordinates to love him. But if he can't get their love, he'll settle for their fear. Because ultimately it's all about domination.

Look at how Dukat treated the Bajorans as a people. He tried to make their subjugation more pleasant, believing that it would win their love. When they continued to strike back in anger, he felt betrayed and punished them with harsh reprisals. If you think he wouldn't be equally cruel to a woman who rejected his sexual advances, you're being naive.

Now look at Kira. He tried to win her respect and devotion, but couldn't. Normally, his response would be to lash out and punish her for her "rejection" of him. But he can't touch the real Kira, and that leaves his narcissistic need to dominate unsatisfied. Hence it's a unique situation, creating unique tensions in him.

And Iliana is a unique outlet. You said:

"He uses and victimizes women, so that means he'll do keep a woman as a drugged up prisoner and rape her all the time."

But that's just it. To him, Iliana is not a woman. She's not a person. She doesn't even exist. Her own personality is erased and has no perception of what's being done to her. The personality in its place is merely a copy of the real Kira, so its reactions, its feelings, don't "count." So he's able to define her in his own mind as a non-person, and that leaves him free to do whatever he wants to her.

If you find that hard to believe, study history. Study the Nazi concentration camp guards who were able to execute their prisoners by the thousands without blinking an eye but who then went home and lavished genuine love on their wives and children. It doesn't matter how decent you are to people you define as people; if you're able to define someone as a non-person, then all bets are off.

So no, I'm not talking about what Dukat would do to women. Insisting that he sees Iliana as a woman at all is misunderstanding the whole situation. To him, she's not a real person, not a real anything. She's a fantasy object in flesh and blood. She's a release valve for the exceptional frustrations created by his "hands-off" policy toward the real Kira.

If there's anything about the premise that I find unbelievable, it's that Dukat would honor that promise to leave the real Kira alone. I think it's more likely that he'd place his own desires above his promise to a mere Bajoran and would've forced himself on the real Kira one way or another. But obviously that would conflict with canon. Stipulating to the premise that he would keep his word to leave the real Kira alone, everything else about the situation makes sense to me given what we know about Dukat -- the real Dukat when you strip away his self-serving lies.


No it doesn't, because people don't function like that - they do things that they are motivated to do.

And I've explained above what Dukat's motives are in this specific case. It's not about some vague, free-floating concept of "evil," because that would be stupid. It's about understanding the deep-seated, vindictive narcissism that ultimately drives Dukat, and how it would manifest in the unique situation where he has both a Bajoran woman he can't allow himself to dominate and a copy of that woman whom nobody else knows about and whom he's able to define as a non-person.



But there is a very simple distinction between Dukat's seductions and literal rape: he wants to win hearts and minds rather than just to physically enslave people, because this guy needs to believe that he is loved and admired, that people think of him as a great guy and feel grateful to him... and what's more, he needs to believe in that self-image.

But that's only half the equation. Yes, he wants to win hearts and minds, but as I said, when he fails to win someone's devotion, he gets angry and punishes them for "betraying" him.


Oh come on. As if he couldn't have treated Kira Meru and every other 'comfort woman' the same way if he wanted to? Now that is profoundly naive. You said it yourself, he was in a position of absolute power over these women. Meru did not "exist" anymore either since becoming a comfort woman, her children thought she was dead and to most Bajorans she was a 'collaborator' so they didn't care about her, and as for Cardassians, as if any of them cared what happened to her and how she was treated?!

You're not only being needlessly rude and hostile, but you're contradicting your own argument. You said it yourself, Dukat wants to win the hearts and minds of the people he dominates. And more importantly, since he's a monumental narcissist and ultimately it's all about himself, he wants to convince himself that he's being benevolent to them. But Iliana wasn't a person to him, just a simulation of Kira. In his mind, she had no more reality than a holosuite character. So winning her approval, or feeling good about his treatment of her, didn't matter.


If he ever needed "safety valves" to treat as cruelly as possible without caring how they felt, any of them could have served the purpose.

Again, you're missing the point by confusing the specific with the general. It's not about women, it's about Kira Nerys. Because of his promise to Meru to leave her alone, Kira was a special challenge to him, and thus she became a special fixation. The more he had to watch her from afar, the more intensely he craved her, because being unable to slake his thirsts was an exceptional situation for him. How does a pathological narcissist, someone whose whole reality is defined by the belief that he deserves the gratification of all his desires and whose position gives him the power to get that gratification in almost every case, respond to the unique situation where he can't get what he wants? It's entirely believable that it would become a special obsession and frustration to him. So it wasn't about any woman; it was about Nerys. So finding a duplicate Nerys that nobody knew about, that he could define as a non-person, was an exceptional opportunity to release those exceptional urges.

You say it's out of character for Dukat, and yes, it does contradict his usual behavior patterns in some ways. But no character is absolutely uniform. We're all capable of behaving in uncharacteristic ways in unprecedented circumstances. We all have exceptions to the rules of our normal behavior. Iliana was the exception to the rule for Dukat.


Dukat's hypocritical self-image is not just about public image or opinions of others. It's his own psychological need. He needed to believe that he loved those women and that they loved them, that he was a great guy helping those poor people who were like "children".

Exactly. And he satisfied that urge in Kira Nerys's case by leaving the real Kira alone, by ensuring that she was protected. That let him feel he was doing a good thing. Taking out his resultant frustrations on the "unreal" Kira in the cell on Letau was his reward for that benevolence. Again, the key is that he didn't think of Iliana as a person, merely as a copy of the actual Kira Nerys.
 
Dukat was fucking bug nuts crazy even before he went near a Bajoran pagh-wraith, so i have no trouble believing him doing anything.
 
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