Technological Development Between 22nd and 24th Centuries

[lilzal]

Hi all,

Have finished watching all of the TNG series, of course based in the 24th century (primarily..), and am now watching Enterprise (based primarily in the 22nd century), halfway through the first season.

Seeing humans cope with lesser technology in Enterprise is an interesting contrast, but a thought occurred: is there really two centuries worth of technological difference between Enterprise and TNG?

Compare 1800 to now. Compare now to Enterprise (not quite even two centuries). But compare Enterprise to TNG - it doesn't seem THAT different.

The main technological inferiorities compared to TNG that Enterprise has, as far as I can see, are a less robust transporter system, slower Warp capabilities, and a lack of matter replication facilities.

What other differences have I missed, and do you think that it does make sense from a technological standpoint to have a 2 century gap between Enterprise and TNG?

 

[SilentP]

Holographic technology, artificial intelligences (though few true AIs, ship board computers are far smarter than their ENT equivalents), better long range communications, miniaturization of existing technologies, better warp technology (such as being able to 'recycle' dilithium crystals) to name a few things.

It may be a case that technology between 22nd and 24th Centuries is needing that series of breakthroughs to really leap ahead of what they have.

 

[Timo]

Let's remember that we aren't exactly watching the technological rat race between superpowers when we follow humanity through those two centuries. Rather, in the 22nd, we witness the rise of humanity from ignorant savage status to average player status, probably largely because humanity came to contact with the average players and obtained tech and skills from them. Little different from what would have happened to the average African nation in the 1800s: proliferation of guns and vehicles, but not of manufacturing or R&D capabilities. In the 2000s, said African countries are no closer to having those mfg or R&D abilities, and still persist on scraps from the average players.

Mankind may not have had an original thought on starflight or rayguns or forcefields between the 2100s and the 2300s, just like it didn't between the 1800s and 2000s. There would be no mechanism for technological advancement, because humans would still be the stupidest and most backward of the lot, even if they had managed to purchase a few gadgets and tricks with which to drag themselves to rough parity.

As for the rest of the Federation... Well, there'd be a massive influx of ideas when the UFP first came together. All the former military secrets of the Vulcans would finally be combined with the military secrets of the Andorians to produce even better secrets. But after that, there'd probably be stagnation, since Vulcans and Andorians are already old players who have reached parity and aren't in much of a rat race. Hell, thanks to the initial synergy, they may be way ahead in the rat race when it comes to the new competitors, the Klingons. Thus, no tech development until the Klingons make their countermove and become a respectable threat again. And the Klingons aren't rapid developers, that much is obvious.

The same sort of happened to Great Britain after the Napoleonic wars. Their Royal Navy was so good that it invented nothing new for half a century, and only introduced imported "parity tech" such as bigger rifled guns with exploding shells that didn't work. Their Army was so complacent that it still fought in Napoleonic style, with Napoleonic officers in command, in the Crimean War. Indeed, since the competitors were all industrial powers now, the British decided they dare not field any new technologies, because the French or the Germans or the Americans would simply copy them immediately. Better persist with the old stuff where the British at least had numerical superiority.

Perhaps the Feds keep their best innovations hidden, too? Against the Borg, that is the only survival strategy, really...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[RapidNadion]

Timo, I always love your posts, but that one is a stand-out. A very plausible and eloquent possible in-universe explanation for why Enterprise is essentially TNG-Lite. I'm still annoyed at the total lack of imagination and boldness on the part of the producers that led to Enterprise becoming what it was, but it's a little easier to swallow when looked at in terms of your conjecture. Thanks.

 

[Alientraveller]

Between 2379 and 2387, Scotty worked out transwarp beaming, that would be pretty significant.

 

[Unicron]

The same sort of happened to Great Britain after the Napoleonic wars. Their Royal Navy was so good that it invented nothing new for half a century, and only introduced imported "parity tech" such as bigger rifled guns with exploding shells that didn't work. Their Army was so complacent that it still fought in Napoleonic style, with Napoleonic officers in command, in the Crimean War. Indeed, since the competitors were all industrial powers now, the British decided they dare not field any new technologies, because the French or the Germans or the Americans would simply copy them immediately. Better persist with the old stuff where the British at least had numerical superiority.

Indeed, and when the first practical steam engines were demonstrated in the early 1800s, the Royal Navy resisted the idea of employing them in new ship designs for quite some time, because the bulk of their navy was built around sail, and the conservative elements feared that a rapid attempt to transition into building designs incorporating steam would leave the British Navy vulnerable, and possibly destroy their existing supremacy. So while those fears were perhaps a bit exaggerated in hindsight given the numerous advantages the steam engine offered, they were based on practical and logical concerns.

 

[Showdown]

Hi all,

Have finished watching all of the TNG series, of course based in the 24th century (primarily..), and am now watching Enterprise (based primarily in the 22nd century), halfway through the first season.

Seeing humans cope with lesser technology in Enterprise is an interesting contrast, but a thought occurred: is there really two centuries worth of technological difference between Enterprise and TNG?

Compare 1800 to now. Compare now to Enterprise (not quite even two centuries). But compare Enterprise to TNG - it doesn't seem THAT different.

The main technological inferiorities compared to TNG that Enterprise has, as far as I can see, are a less robust transporter system, slower Warp capabilities, and a lack of matter replication facilities.

What other differences have I missed, and do you think that it does make sense from a technological standpoint to have a 2 century gap between Enterprise and TNG?

Sometimes there wasn't a lot of changes in a long periods of time in human history.

 

[Deks]

But with the Federation and 150 member planets ...
I mean come on ... the stagnation aspect is highly unlikely.
Look at the amount of ideas we have today.
In the Federation, realization of ideas is far easier and simpler because money doesn't exist and resources aren't the porblem.

Stagnation doesn't really make any sense.
The Klingons are a respectable threat really, and the Romulans kept hiding for 100 years ... what, they'd be sitting on their rear ends?
Unlikely.

And then of course there are the Borg.
SF messed up greatly in that retrospect when they gave up on the Defiant initially and not trying to push much harder for new technologies.

 

[timothy1701]

what You have to keep in mind though, is that we just see the star fleet side of the federation. We don't much of life at home, or federation media, pop culture or current popular tech. What's the iPod of trek? We never see it. And there are advances, just not very recognizable ones. From the time Voyager became lost in the delta quadrant to the time the Doctor visited the Prometheus, medical technology advanced so mush, the Doctor didn't recognize basic tools. We're always led to believe that phasers and shields keep getting stronger and stronger.

and think about it, one of the biggest advances made by mankind in the last few centuries has been transportation. We went from horses, carriages, cars, planes, then space shuttles! By the time of TNG, people magically transport from place to place, anywhere on the globe, within seconds. Can you really advance more than that? Now they have transwarp beaming? Imagine a transport network, that transwarps you from relay to relay. You could beam from Earth all the way to Vulcan...in seconds! They advanced, we just don't notice it. All we see is star fleet.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Some areas of notable change.

Computer Intelligence. In Enterprise, computers were basically functional, but never really did anything interesting. In TNG, they could create life simply by being given the command to make something that could outsmart Data.

Warp Drive. Warp 5 in Enterprise, Warp 8 in TOS (9 in the movies, I think), a brand new scale that's even faster in TNG.

Weapons. Difficult to tell with this one, but they go from basic kill/burn and stun to at least several settings including vaporizing people (Enterprise hand held weapons are explicitly described as not being able to vaporize people). In TNG, dialog suggests that the maximum setting can destroy mountainsides more or less.

There are also changes in replicator technology, shield and forcefield technology, and transporter technology (to make it more reliable). Oh, and at some point they rediscover automatic doors.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Transporters go from being speedy to being slow.

Ships go from being whooshy fighter jets to being lumbering galleons.

The number of blinking blue LEDs on the average starship bridge goes down dramatically.

Tricorders become much much bigger.

Communicators become bigger.

It's called progress, people.

 

[Anwar]

I thought the TNG+ ships were all FASTER than the TOS ships. They sure seemed more maneuverable in DS9 and Voyager.

 

[Kai Winn]

i believe the advances in star trek are breathtaking. first battle with the borg at wolf 359, a total disaster for the federation, a whole fleet lost against a single cube. endgame a mere 30 or so years later, the lone ship voyager demolishes a planet sized borg installation, and their subway network across the galaxy.
galaxy class odyssey meets a couple of small dominion fighters, and gets promptly destroyed. two years later, car-sized danube class runabouts shoot the same dominion vessels down for the fun of it.
voayger, first contact with the hirogen. one of them hurls tuvok, as a vulcan three times stronger than a human man across the room. one season later, humans have grown so much that human females beat hirogen on a regular basis up.

 

[I am not Spock]

I don't think there is really much difference between 22nd and 24th century tech. They have stuff, just with different names to make it sound more primitive. Hull plating rather than shields. Phase pistols. Photonic torpedoes. It's quite lazy writing, really.

 

[Anwar]

It's better than us somehow going from what we have now to using "atomic" weapons in over 100 years.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I don't think there is really much difference between 22nd and 24th century tech. They have stuff, just with different names to make it sound more primitive. Hull plating rather than shields. Phase pistols. Photonic torpedoes. It's quite lazy writing, really.

For the plot, it's lazy writing because they didn't really force the show to be dramatically different with different technology. But, as far as something like hull plating goes, for an in-universe view, it's very different and not something you can say is the same thing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't think there is really much difference between 22nd and 24th century tech. They have stuff, just with different names to make it sound more primitive. Hull plating rather than shields. Phase pistols. Photonic torpedoes. It's quite lazy writing, really.

Its smart writing because it gives the viewer the idea that these are primitive versions of the technology they are familier with.

Did anyone complain that TNG used the "same" technology for weapons and shields? After all if a show set 100 years in the past must have "different" technology shouldn't a show set 100 years in the future?

 

[Wil has a posse]

Wasn't there a novel that attempted to explain this apparent jump backward? (By "jump backward, I mean TOS Enterprise using basically transisters and computers that speak with awkward, stunted pronunciation and make loud sounds when "thinking", etc.)

 

[Unicron]

The difference there is that those systems could easily be inferred to be more advanced than in TOS, because TNG was set at a later date. Whereas ENT was supposed to be set before some of the technology existed, and yet the PTB wanted it included anyway. I agree it's always good to keep consistency with the technology, but that doesn't mean there needs to be a "primitive" version of a system.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The difference there is that those systems could easily be inferred to be more advanced than in TOS, because TNG was set at a later date. Whereas ENT was supposed to be set before some of the technology existed, and yet the PTB wanted it included anyway. I agree it's always good to keep consistency with the technology, but that doesn't mean there needs to be a "primitive" version of a system.

But shouldn't they have different technologies by then? If they must have different technologies in the 100 years in the past, they must have different technologies 100 years in the future too.

Where is it established that these technologies do not exist in more primitive forms? Is there a reason why they couldn't extist in the experimetal stage?

Look at the real world. We've been using gunpowder based projectile weapons for centuries. A phase is pistol is like a 19th Century revolver and a phaser is like a 20th Century automatic. Both are hand guns that fire bullets but one has greater capacity and is easier to load.