Now that's an astute observation, Trull. Forgiveness most powerful of all. How would Zach grasp that? He doesn't love anybody. You have to love someone to have need of forgiveness.
Supernatural 5x4 "The End" discussion thread spoilery
- Thread starter Dorian Thompson
- Start date
Checkmate
Commodore
Which raises an interesting question, what happened to God? Are we sure that a rebellion against God failed? After all Zachariah did seem terrified at the prospect of God restoring Castial...
Zachariah is terrified because he knows what he's been doing is going to get him the Lucifer treatment, if not worse. Not only has he been going against God's decrees (or intentions at least), he and the other high-ups have been POSING as God to the lesser angels. I'd say that's several magnitudes worse than simply refusing to bow to humanity.
Which raises an interesting question, what happened to God? Are we sure that a rebellion against God failed? After all Zachariah did seem terrified at the prospect of God restoring Castial
Zachariah is terrified because he knows what he's been doing is going to get him the Lucifer treatment, if not worse. Not only has he been going against God's decrees (or intentions at least), he and the other high-ups have been POSING as God to the lesser angels. I'd say that's several magnitudes worse than simply refusing to bow to humanity.
That seems to be the case (judging from future episode titles) in fact I would go so far as to say that the Arch Angels seem to fit the 'villain' role far more naturally than Lucifer himself.
After all he only wants to save the planet (albeit by wiping out humanity) and unlike Zach and co he appears to be completely honest about his intentions so far.
(In fact I've found this incarnation of the Devil so sympathetic that I actually thought that his comments regarding his current host were too cruel and unnecessary)
As for Azazel being a former angel, it was confirmed that Lilith was the first human to be corrupted into a demon and since she was the big boss it would only be logical to assume that Azazel and Alistair were ex humans also.
You know what I would love to see? Lucifer kicking Zachariah's arse
God, I loved the story nowDean! told futureDean! to convince him that it was really him.
"And you know? We kind of liked it."
Old Nick. Not Old St. Nick.
Saint Nick is someone else entirely.
I do have to say that although I'm enjoying the show immensely, I continue to be greatly annoyed by the constant depiction of angels as *bad* guys, and Dean's determined attempt to get Castiel to, essentially, commit a rather big sin for an angel.
Tony
I know. I was being facetious, dude. 
Is Dean trying to get Castiel to commit a sin? Or is he putting him back on God's path to peace? In a deistic depiction God's universe, maybe the angels are more "neutral" than anything else. Most of them think they're just following orders. It's Zachariah who's the really bad one. When the angels start thinking for themselves, like Castiel and Anna (and presumably the ones who refused to help Uriel whom he killed for refusing) is when they seem to get back on the right path. Thinking for yourself seems to be the ultimate lesson. Don't be an automaton. Why hasn't Michael come to Dean if Dean being his meatsuit is the right thing to do?
Is Dean trying to get Castiel to commit a sin? Or is he putting him back on God's path to peace? In a deistic depiction God's universe, maybe the angels are more "neutral" than anything else. Most of them think they're just following orders. It's Zachariah who's the really bad one. When the angels start thinking for themselves, like Castiel and Anna (and presumably the ones who refused to help Uriel whom he killed for refusing) is when they seem to get back on the right path. Thinking for yourself seems to be the ultimate lesson. Don't be an automaton. Why hasn't Michael come to Dean if Dean being his meatsuit is the right thing to do?
Michael would need a meat-suit to talk to Dean, since Dean can't hear Angelspeak (as established in the season four opener). Which makes me wonder, how Dean can even be a vessel, since the inhabitant-to-be needs permission to enter and Dean can't even hear the question.
I guess Michael could also find a "just adequate" meatsuit like Lucifer did, and go to Dean.
Definitely the best of the season so far. It's the mirror image of "In the Beginning" from s4, in which Castiel sent Dean backwards to learn a lesson - now Zachariah sends him forward to learn a lesson. The twists were fairly predictable, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It makes it like a Shakespearean tragedy, where you can see the end coming but can't do anything about it.
I made note of the fact that Castiel's attitude of "we're all going to die anyway, might as well have some fun in the meantime," was exactly the same as Dean's attitude in season 3 when he was expecting to go to hell. We'd said last week that Castiel is learning how to be human from Dean - I guess that continued in the alt-future.
Actually I thought the big scene with Dean and "Sam" at the end was more obviously on a set than usual. I might be wrong, but it felt like when Star Trek used to use the same old cave set over and over again just with different plants.
As with all episodes, some scenes were cut for time. Unfortunately, hers were some of them. As for Castiel, it bears repeating that he only "acted human" to cope with disappointment and pain. He was never aspiring to be human. Castiel wants free will, but that's not necessarily tantamount to him desiring all the foibles of being human. Castiel genuinely likes Dean; that's the extent of his humanity. Nice observation that he acted like Dean when he was on countdown for hell. The promiscuity and drugs were a symptom of depression and fear.
Why? How? Would Lucifer have slipped it into Dean's pocket during their conversation after he snapped future Dean's neck before Zach unexpectedly snatched him back? There's no reason Lucifer would have kindly returned the gun to him. Future Dean had the colt.
The colt's presence, besides being a contrivance, would have confirmed this future as real. We're not supposed to know for sure. It could have been something Zach cooked up.
The colt's presence, besides being a contrivance, would have confirmed this future as real. We're not supposed to know for sure. It could have been something Zach cooked up.
Why would future Dean knock him out, then leave the colt in his pocket out there on the street and go face Lucifer without it? 
He went on the mission to go get the colt. Why, after sacrificing all his friends to get to Lucifer, would he go in without it?
He went on the mission to go get the colt. Why, after sacrificing all his friends to get to Lucifer, would he go in without it?
Checkmate
Commodore
Dean's not a very bright man. In the present or the future.
If he were, he would have at least tried to figure out how and where everything went wrong. What happened with Castiel's search for God? Where was his necklace? Where was the Colt found or, at the very least, where was it at key moments between then and now? What of the other Horsemen?
He didn't ask a single useful question. Hell, he didn't even try to find out about any chicks he should avoid banging (or try to bang) along the way. I'd have been happy with that.
That said, do you really think this same Dean who couldn't be bothered to do any kind of real recon during such a rare opportunity would have the foresight to slip the Colt into his own pocket? Hell, Future Dean had no memory of this trip occuring, so how sure are we that he knew that really was himself? And why would he trust him with the Colt if that were the case? Even if he did, would that thick-headed Dean have risked giving up what he thought was a sure-fire opportunity to kill Lucifer for a chance that his past self could do so? Especially since his future didn't seem to change one iota by the visit.
Personally, I want to know how Zachariah was at full power in the future. Castiel said he lost all of his powers because the angels apparently left (a guess). And if Zachariah was there and one of the Energizer battery cells for angelhood (since he was using all his powers), wouldn't Castiel have regainined some of his power as a result, too?
If he were, he would have at least tried to figure out how and where everything went wrong. What happened with Castiel's search for God? Where was his necklace? Where was the Colt found or, at the very least, where was it at key moments between then and now? What of the other Horsemen?
He didn't ask a single useful question. Hell, he didn't even try to find out about any chicks he should avoid banging (or try to bang) along the way. I'd have been happy with that.
That said, do you really think this same Dean who couldn't be bothered to do any kind of real recon during such a rare opportunity would have the foresight to slip the Colt into his own pocket? Hell, Future Dean had no memory of this trip occuring, so how sure are we that he knew that really was himself? And why would he trust him with the Colt if that were the case? Even if he did, would that thick-headed Dean have risked giving up what he thought was a sure-fire opportunity to kill Lucifer for a chance that his past self could do so? Especially since his future didn't seem to change one iota by the visit.
Personally, I want to know how Zachariah was at full power in the future. Castiel said he lost all of his powers because the angels apparently left (a guess). And if Zachariah was there and one of the Energizer battery cells for angelhood (since he was using all his powers), wouldn't Castiel have regainined some of his power as a result, too?
Ummmm.....okay. C'est la vie.
Castiel didn't find God. Obviously. The colt had been moved around from place to place by the demons. They said that. Future Dean tortured a captured demon for the info. He didn't know where it had been until that time.
Zachariah only popped into the future for a few secs. That's not going to "power up" future Castiel. Future Dean told present Dean to do the one thing he thought was really going to work--say yes to Michael. I don't think he had much faith the colt would work--but if he gave it to past Dean and past Dean failed to shoot the devil (or the colt didn't work) then Future Dean has no weapon against the devil in his own time. That's why he wouldn't give up the colt. Getting present Dean to say yes to Michael was the better choice from his perspective, the choice with the best chance of success in the past. Present Dean wasn't even sure whether this future was real or a Zach created hallucination; that complicated the situation. Dean asked questions--I'm not what else he could have asked from a strategic stand point. They told him when the epidemic started. They didn't know why or how. Dean hadn't spoken to Sam in years. He didn't know why Sam had said "yes." Future Dean didn't know where the colt was in 2009. It had been moved from unspecified place to place. He didn't know of a way to prevent the epidemic. Obviously Castiel hadn't found God. I'm sure Dean had more important things on his mind than who he shouldn't sleep with.
Just my two cents.
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Samantha Ferris
Yea! Ellen's coming back again for another episode. I'd say she's definitely the most successful recurring female on this show.
Yea! Ellen's coming back again for another episode. I'd say she's definitely the most successful recurring female on this show.
I have to say, though, what a waste of Lexa Doig. She was there for like two minutes.
Very disappointing.
What was her character again?
The chick who was mad at future Dean because he'd spent the night in another woman's tent. She had a bigger part initially, but it was cut for time.