Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS*

[Paris]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

After crushing every known inhabited planet and Starbase, the Borg would no doubt have simply continued until they found every colony, hideout, and refugee fleet.

That sounds a little too cylon-y .

 

[Sci]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

So... What was the exact situation here, as regards regrouping?

It was already stated that transphasic torps were not working. Was there possibly some hope of utilizing another weapon in their stead? If so, one could easily argue that it would be much better to sacrifice a few billion useless civilians and withdraw to a location where the new weapons could be handed out, then attack again to save trillions.

See, the problem with that logic is that Starfleet is mostly comprised of good people who actually deserve to live, not cold-blooded traitors who are willing to commit genocide against their own people, in utter violation of their oath to protect those people, in the name of tactical parity. They actually care about civilians and view their duty as protecting them, not calling them "useless" and deciding to sacrifice them.

If things were really going down the drain, extinction level, then one might also have to start considering unconventional courses of action. Perhaps Starfleet should, say, have started sterilizing its own planets, to deny further Drones from the Borg?

Timo Saloniemi

1. Starfleet would never commit genocide like that, especially not against its own people. That would be a fundamental betrayal of the Federation people.

2. The Borg weren't assimilating anyone; they were exterminating planets just as you suggest Starfleet do.

3. You should probably actually read the books yourself.

 

[Deks]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

The Thalaron weapon was supposed to be used when the Borg armada was circled around the 'hero' ships and pulled away from the core systems.

Perhaps the weapon in question was 'morally questionable', but given their circumstances ... it was coming down to a matter of survival.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

The thalaron weapon would never have worked anyway. It wouldn't have been able to take out all the Borg before they adapted to it, and that means that in the long run, it would've just been giving the Borg an even deadlier weapon to use against the Federation.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

The Thalaron weapon was supposed to be used when the Borg armada was circled around the 'hero' ships and pulled away from the core systems.

Perhaps the weapon in question was 'morally questionable', but given their circumstances ... it was coming down to a matter of survival.

The thalaron weapon would never have worked anyway. It wouldn't have been able to take out all the Borg before they adapted to it, and that means that in the long run, it would've just been giving the Borg an even deadlier weapon to use against the Federation.

The Thalaron weapon would not have taken out all the borg cubes before they adapted?
Well, it would have taken out a large percentage of the cubes, buying time for the alpha/beta powers to come up with something to take care of the rest of the significantly reduced borg armada. And borg reinforcements, as established in "Destiny", were 70-100 years away - a very long time.
All that makes the Thalaron weapon potentially very effective.

Using the Thalaron weapon could have given the borg an even deadlier weapon?
The borg, as established, could already "cook" a planet to the mantle in minutes! What could the Thalaron weapon give to the borg - the ability to shave off a minute from the time needed to sterilize a planet? That's almost without importance.

And there's nothing morally questionable about using the Thalaron weapon against enemy soldiers intent on killing TRILLIONS. Quite the contrary, in fact - it's self-defense.

 

[Sci]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

The Thalaron weapon was supposed to be used when the Borg armada was circled around the 'hero' ships and pulled away from the core systems.

Perhaps the weapon in question was 'morally questionable', but given their circumstances ... it was coming down to a matter of survival.

The thalaron weapon would never have worked anyway. It wouldn't have been able to take out all the Borg before they adapted to it, and that means that in the long run, it would've just been giving the Borg an even deadlier weapon to use against the Federation.

The Thalaron weapon would not have taken out all the borg cubes before they adapted?

There were seven thousand cubes. How on Earth could any weapon have taken out all of them? The very notion is absurd.

Well, it would have taken out a large percentage of the cubes, buying time for the alpha/beta powers to come up with something to take care of the rest of the significantly reduced borg armada.

Even if it had taken out 90% of all the cubes, that would have left 746 cubes -- and those 746 cubes would have been invulnerable to all the weapons that had already been tried, including the thalaron weapon. It would have just protracted the Borg's extermination campaign, not stopped it.

And further, the idea that it would have taken out any cube is unrealistically optimistic. Thalaron weapons would only destroy the organic components of the drones -- and the novel Before Dishonor established that a Borg cube is capable of functioning, and of attacking, other ships remotely, without the need for drones to be present.

It would probably have just led to there being 7,000 remote-controlled cubes wiping out the Federation instead of 7,000 drone-crewed cubes wiping out the Federation.

Using the Thalaron weapon could have given the borg an even deadlier weapon?
The borg, as established, could already "cook" a planet to the mantle in minutes! What could the Thalaron weapon give to the borg - the ability to shave off a minute from the time needed to sterilize a planet?

No, but it would have given the Borg the ability to kill all crew members aboard Federation starships in a wide spread without needing to use any other weapons.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

There were seven thousand cubes. How on Earth could any weapon have taken out all of them? The very notion is absurd.

There were 7000 cubes AT THE BEGINNING, Sci. In the end, between Dax's plan (which, at the very least, halved the borg forces) and the transphasic kills, there were 2500 cubes, at most.

Even if it had taken out 90% of all the cubes, that would have left 746 cubes -- and those 746 cubes would have been invulnerable to all the weapons that had already been tried, including the thalaron weapon. It would have just protracted the Borg's extermination campaign, not stopped it.

That would be 250 cubes. And these 250 cubes would eradicate all life in the alpha/beta quandrants a LOT slower than 2500 cubes.
It would have saved lives. It would have bought precious time for the alpha/beta species to come up with a plan (much like Dax's or the thalaron one) to destroy the rest of the borg armada.

And further, the idea that it would have taken out any cube is unrealistically optimistic. Thalaron weapons would only destroy the organic components of the drones -- and the novel Before Dishonor established that a Borg cube is capable of functioning, and of attacking, other ships remotely, without the need for drones to be present.

Take it up with 7 of 9. She said (in "Destiny") that the thalaron weapon will work and she knows more about the borg than any other non-assimilated being (several times in Voyager, she was said to possess the entire knowledge of the collective).

Using the Thalaron weapon could have given the borg an even deadlier weapon?
The borg, as established, could already "cook" a planet to the mantle in minutes! What could the Thalaron weapon give to the borg - the ability to shave off a minute from the time needed to sterilize a planet?

No, but it would have given the Borg the ability to kill all crew members aboard Federation starships in a wide spread without needing to use any other weapons.

So, the thalaron weapon would give the borg the ability to destroy federation vessels, after minutes of charging (see Shinzon's ship - huge and constructed specifically to be a thalaron weapon) - and if the federates forget they have impulse drive (never mind warp).
And, of course, after Erica Hernandez would show Starfleet how to modify their shields to resist thalaron radiation, the thalaron weapon would be useless against starfleet ships.
They borg can already do much better than that.

 

[Lindley]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

After crushing every known inhabited planet and Starbase, the Borg would no doubt have simply continued until they found every colony, hideout, and refugee fleet.

That sounds a little too cylon-y .

You're not the first one to think of that....

 

[Sci]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

There were seven thousand cubes. How on Earth could any weapon have taken out all of them? The very notion is absurd.

There were 7000 cubes AT THE BEGINNING, Sci. In the end, between Dax's plan (which, at the very least, halved the borg forces) and the transphasic kills, there were 2500 cubes, at most.

Fair enough on my forgetting about the plan to have Hernandez imitate the Queen and half the Borg forces. But where on Earth do you get that 2,500 number? Half of 7,461 is about 3,730; there's no evidence that the transphasic torpedoes would have destroyed enough ships to bring the number down another 1,230.

Even if we assume that's true, though, the 90% figure for the thalaron weapons would leave hundreds of invulnerable cubes -- and that's assuming that the thalaron weapon would kill 90% of the cubes, which I think is unrealistically optimistic.

Even if it had taken out 90% of all the cubes, that would have left 746 cubes -- and those 746 cubes would have been invulnerable to all the weapons that had already been tried, including the thalaron weapon. It would have just protracted the Borg's extermination campaign, not stopped it.

That would be 250 cubes. And these 250 cubes would eradicate all life in the alpha/beta quandrants a LOT slower than 2500 cubes.

Maybe, but they'd still be able to destroy the fabric of Federation, Klingon, and Romulan societies just as quickly -- destroy the key central planets, create enough chaos, and society and communications would break down. From there, they'd be able to proceed with exterminating everyone with relative ease.

It would have saved lives. It would have bought precious time for the alpha/beta species to come up with a plan (much like Dax's or the thalaron one) to destroy the rest of the borg armada.

That's still relying on a lot of unrealistically optimistic assumptions -- that the thalaron weapon would work, that it would destroy the vast majority of cubes it was used on, and that the affected cubes would not continue functioning without their drones.

Take it up with 7 of 9. She said (in "Destiny") that the thalaron weapon will work and she knows more about the borg than any other non-assimilated being (several times in Voyager, she was said to possess the entire knowledge of the collective).

By the time of Destiny, Seven of Nine has been separated from the Collective for seven years. Her knowledge is woefully out of date by that point; she's more reliable than most, and certainly a valuable advisor, but this does not mean her knowledge is infallible.

And even Seven never gave any guarantees that the thalaron weapon would work.

Using the Thalaron weapon could have given the borg an even deadlier weapon?

The borg, as established, could already "cook" a planet to the mantle in minutes! What could the Thalaron weapon give to the borg - the ability to shave off a minute from the time needed to sterilize a planet?

No, but it would have given the Borg the ability to kill all crew members aboard Federation starships in a wide spread without needing to use any other weapons.

So, the thalaron weapon would give the borg the ability to destroy federation vessels, after minutes of charging (see Shinzon's ship - huge and constructed specifically to be a thalaron weapon) - and if the federates forget they have impulse drive (never mind warp).

More like, they'd hand the Borg a weapon that would deny Federation starships even the ability to distract the Borg from their target planets for a few minutes. It would actually decrease the amount of time refugees would have to escape.

And, of course, after Erica Hernandez would show Starfleet how to modify their shields to resist thalaron radiation, the thalaron weapon would be useless against starfleet ships.

I have no memory of there being any indication whatsoever that Hernandez would have information on how to modify Starfleet shields to protect against thalaron weapons.

And you've already not explained what you'd do about cubes that continue functioning and continue exterminating worlds even with their drones killed. Remember, Before Dishonor established quite firmly that a cube can function without its crew.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

clearly the best strategy would've been to put teams aboard the cubes armed with TR-116s and destroy each Cube's Vinculum and plant an anti-matter bomb on board and destroy it from within.

 

[MNM]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

^Maybe Starfleet would have decided to break the temporal prime directive and travel back in time to destroy the Borg, if all else failed and they were facing extinction...

Riker did actually bring up that notion, though was shot down by Dax.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

clearly the best strategy would've been to put teams aboard the cubes armed with TR-116s and destroy each Cube's Vinculum and plant an anti-matter bomb on board and destroy it from within.

I think that was attempted (once in simulation, where it was found the ship would even attack troops) and again, where Zelik Leybenzon led a suicide mission...and failed...

In addition to the ship being active in attacks, the Borg drones themselves were more agile and quick....

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

By the time of Destiny, Seven of Nine has been separated from the Collective for seven years. Her knowledge is woefully out of date by that point; she's more reliable than most, and certainly a valuable advisor, but this does not mean her knowledge is infallible.

And even Seven never gave any guarantees that the thalaron weapon would work.

7 of 9 determining that the thalaron weapon will work does not mean, of course, that there is absolute certainty about the weapon effectiveness.
It does mean, however, that the weapon will most likely be effective.

That means that the first usages of the thalaron weapon will most likely destroy all drones on the cubes caught in the blasts.
It also means that the cubes won't continue fuctioning without their drones - if the cubes would still be operational, then 7 of 9 wouldn't describe the weapon as being efficient.

It's worth noting that 7 of 9 was almost certainly part of the team of scientists that performed the forensic analysis of the borg attack from "Before Dishonor" - she obviously concluded that the supercube was highly atypical, that the chance of normal borg ships acting in the same way is negligible.

And, of course, after Erica Hernandez would show Starfleet how to modify their shields to resist thalaron radiation, the thalaron weapon would be useless against starfleet ships.

I have no memory of there being any indication whatsoever that Hernandez would have information on how to modify Starfleet shields to protect against thalaron weapons.

Erica Hernandez modified the Titan's shields to make them resistant to metaphasic radiation before the ship took the subspace shortcut to the Azure Nebula.
Metaphasic radiation turns organic matter into dust - thalaron radiation is metaphasic radiation.

 

[Judge King]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

Erica Hernandez modified the Titan's shields to make them resistant to metaphasic radiation before the ship took the subspace shortcut to the Azure Nebula.
Metaphasic radiation turns organic matter into dust - thalaron radiation is metaphasic radiation.

Um no, Hernandez modified the shields to protect the USS Titan crew from hyperphasic radiation.

 

[Sci]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

By the time of Destiny, Seven of Nine has been separated from the Collective for seven years. Her knowledge is woefully out of date by that point; she's more reliable than most, and certainly a valuable advisor, but this does not mean her knowledge is infallible.

And even Seven never gave any guarantees that the thalaron weapon would work.

7 of 9 determining that the thalaron weapon will work does not mean, of course, that there is absolute certainty about the weapon effectiveness.
It does mean, however, that the weapon will most likely be effective.

No, it means that Seven of Nine regards it as the Federation's best chance. That's not a guarantee or a statement of probability, just an acknowledgement that all other options are without any hope whatsoever.

It's worth noting that 7 of 9 was almost certainly part of the team of scientists that performed the forensic analysis of the borg attack from "Before Dishonor" - she obviously concluded that the supercube was highly atypical, that the chance of normal borg ships acting in the same way is negligible.

There's no evidence of that whatsoever, and there's certainly evidence against the idea that a Borg vessel cannot be operated remotely without drones aboard. We saw the Borg probe being operated remotely by the Queen in Destiny, even with no drones aboard.

I'm afraid that it's incontrovertible: Any Borg vessel lacking drones is still operable by the Collective and could still be used, quite easily, to participate in the annihilation of the Federation. Thalaron weaponry would not be useful.

And, of course, after Erica Hernandez would show Starfleet how to modify their shields to resist thalaron radiation, the thalaron weapon would be useless against starfleet ships.

I have no memory of there being any indication whatsoever that Hernandez would have information on how to modify Starfleet shields to protect against thalaron weapons.

Erica Hernandez modified the Titan's shields to make them resistant to metaphasic radiation before the ship took the subspace shortcut to the Azure Nebula.
Metaphasic radiation turns organic matter into dust - thalaron radiation is metaphasic radiation.

We have no idea if thalaron radiation is the same thing as metaphasic radiation. Bullets and knives can both stop your heart if they hit it, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all. Thalaron radiation was never referred to as a form of metaphasic radiation, and considering that its properties were never enumerated and that it's essentially a technobabble name for "magic kill-you energy," I think it's silly to presume they're the same thing.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

I thought metaphasic radiation was making you younger, not turning you into dust. Everybody reacted quite shocked when they heard "thaleron radiation" in Nemesis, but not so much with "metaphasic radition" in Insurrection. I know deleted scenes don't count, but when Rua'fo originally died from a metaphasic radiation overdose, he went younger and younger, turned into a baby, an embroy, a small puddle of cells, and vanished. Pretty different from what was seen in Nemesis (which was just borrowed from the death scene of the master vampire in Blade 2 anyway).

 

[Christopher]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

"Metaphasic" is a very generic word, and not even a real one. It just means "beyond phase," whatever that's supposed to mean. It's a word that could apply to many different types of thing, and indeed already has; it was one of the more common bits of gibberish in later Trek (metaphasic radiation, metaphasic shields, metaphasic sweep, neural metaphasic shock). So it doesn't have a specific narrow meaning, or really any meaning at all. (Aside from "pertaining to the stage of cell division between prophase and anaphase," but that certainly isn't applicable here.)

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

It's worth noting that 7 of 9 was almost certainly part of the team of scientists that performed the forensic analysis of the borg attack from "Before Dishonor" - she obviously concluded that the supercube was highly atypical, that the chance of normal borg ships acting in the same way is negligible.

There's no evidence of that whatsoever

7 of 9 is the Federation's best expert when it comes to the borg. Furthermore, she participated directly in the incident from "Before Dishonor".
Of course she was part of the team that analysed the incident - the largest borg attack to date. Only someone with a brain the size of a peanut would not make use of her unique abilities in this situation.

By the time of "Destiny" she was more than familiar with the results of this forensic investigation. This is also required by her position as adviser and implied by her searching for evidence of "absortion" by the cubes.

7 of 9 determining that the thalaron weapon will work does not mean, of course, that there is absolute certainty about the weapon effectiveness.
It does mean, however, that the weapon will most likely be effective.

That means that the first usages of the thalaron weapon will most likely destroy all drones on the cubes caught in the blasts.
It also means that the cubes won't continue fuctioning without their drones - if the cubes would still be operational, then 7 of 9 wouldn't describe the weapon as being efficient.

No, it means that Seven of Nine regards it as the Federation's best chance. That's not a guarantee or a statement of probability, just an acknowledgement that all other options are without any hope whatsoever.

<<“When you find the Borg’s staging area, you will have only one chance to destroy it,” Seven said. “The only weapon you possess that is powerful enough to do so in a single shot, and to which the Borg have not yet adapted, is the thalaron array.”>>

AKA if the borg have not adapted to the thalaron weapon, it will "destroy" them (according to 7 of 9) - meaning the cubes won't fly by themselves.

We saw the Borg probe being operated remotely by the Queen in Destiny, even with no drones aboard.

Yes, by the Queen - as in, not by itself.

And 7 of 9 is familiar with the borg queen and her capabilities - that's why it's doubtfull she can use by remote control a large number of borg vessels.
Even more, the borg queen might have been able to remote control the borg vessel only because its vinculum vas intensively used by Erica Hernandez - not a standard situation.

I have no memory of there being any indication whatsoever that Hernandez would have information on how to modify Starfleet shields to protect against thalaron weapons.

Erica Hernandez modified the Titan's shields to make them resistant to metaphasic radiation before the ship took the subspace shortcut to the Azure Nebula.
Metaphasic radiation turns organic matter into dust - thalaron radiation is metaphasic radiation.

We have no idea if thalaron radiation is the same thing as metaphasic radiation. Bullets and knives can both stop your heart if they hit it, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing at all. Thalaron radiation was never referred to as a form of metaphasic radiation, and considering that its properties were never enumerated and that it's essentially a technobabble name for "magic kill-you energy," I think it's silly to presume they're the same thing.

The thalaron radiation and the metaphasic radiation have the same exotic propeties - thalaron radiation is a form of metaphasic radiation.
Saying that two forms of radiation with the same properties are not, at the very least, related, is just silly Voyager-style technobabble. If this remains your interpretation - we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Furthermore - The Caeliar technology was far superior to the borg tech - as established and proved in "Destiny".
Saying that Erica Hernandez couldn't modify shields to make them resistant to thalaron radiation is akin to saying that the borg, in a few minutes of adapting, could surpass caeliar tech - again, NOT an interpretation I agree on.

 

[mackula]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

Man,at one point during the Destiny crisis an allied flotilla sits outside a spaceborne phenomenon when suddenly a mass of Borg cubes emerge and smash the entire lot to pieces.
It reminded me of Wile E Coyote looking down the barrel of a misfiring cannon but on a galactic scale.

If anyone could ever come up with some artwork for that scene, that would be outstanding. Just an observation.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

Man,at one point during the Destiny crisis an allied flotilla sits outside a spaceborne phenomenon when suddenly a mass of Borg cubes emerge and smash the entire lot to pieces.
It reminded me of Wile E Coyote looking down the barrel of a misfiring cannon but on a galactic scale.

If anyone could ever come up with some artwork for that scene, that would be outstanding. Just an observation.

...And also very chilling, I might add....

I think it would be titled 'The Slaughter.'