How do Niners feel about Voyager?

[Bertie]

Back in the day, I watched Voyager with a semi-committed group: we pretty much had seen the great majority of Trek episodes/movies made to that point and had dabbled in some of the novels/manuals, but we weren't then going on Usenet and AOL and whatever discussing the show.

Things we generally didn't like:
Neelix
Seska and the Kazon — it is all the rage to praise this on TrekBBS these days (Ooo look! Arcs! Piracy! Character conflict!), but we didn't care as much about "serial television theory"; the actual episodes were kind of mediocre.
Flying in circles (ala Season 1-2)
Holodeck episodes
Harry Kim

Things we did like:
Species 8472
Hirogen
Borg — Yes, really. Might have been some eyerolling around the "Unimatrix Zero" timeframe but nothing drastic.
Seven of Nine
All the Pathfinder/Alpha Quadrant stuff

Generally, my group was kind of mixed on Voyager for Seasons 1, 2, and part of 3, but liked it from that point on.

 

[TheGodBen]

The Indefatigable GodBen vs. The Unrelenting Anwar, Round 17!

Excellent, I've got the cooler name!

Actually, I'm finding the back-and-forth tiresome. It's obvious neither will convince the other. I'm amazed by their stamina.

I'd make a dirty comment, but I'm too much of a gentleman.

No, it was one person who made that comment, not "fellows", not "Niners". Why should GodBen or anyone else take some responsibility for a comment somebody else made? You've been warned and even actioned for trolling DS9 fans, and you are still doing it.

Warned by the DS9 mod, the Voyager mods and one of them orange dudes. I'm all for free speech but this is a privately owned website and we have to abide by the rules of the owners, to blatantly ignore the rules is just rude. I mean, there's a certain piece of software that I find very useful when browsing the intertubes, but the rules here say that I'm not allowed to talk about it and thus I don't.

If only everyone else on this board was as respectful as I.

You apparently do not visit TNZ very often. One time we had an entire debate on the merits of the definition of defining any state of probability in regard to religion and it's authenticity, and it went on for a hundred pages and not one person had budged from their initial opinions.

Now THAT's stamina! 7 pages? Fuggedaboutit!

While the length of that thread is impressive, TNZ is far too easy because you're allowed to insult and belittle your opponent if you wish, it takes real stamina to argue against a wall while keeping up the appearance of civility.

That's very flattering. Incidentally, and I must admit I never got around to saying this on your review threads and I ought: they're very excellent reads. Insightful, funny, and superbly written. I probably should have said that in your ENT thread, so that's an admittedly churlish omission of mine.

It's probably best if people don't tell me things like that, it causes me to get big-headed and the quality declines as a result of my inflated ego. I thought my efforts in the Enterprise thread had been better recently because I tried to up my game due to all the people criticising my style, but now you gave me that nice compliment and as a result my latest review contains a cheap joke about fingering.

Why did you have to say nice things about me?



Round 18!

I don't know why you decided to start insulting my capacity for sentient thought...

I don't know why you've been insulting me and dozens of other Niners for as long as I've known you, but you have.

While I'm sure it makes you happy to think that you know exactly what everyone alive in 1995 was thinking, you actually don't.

I remember quite clearly, and yes the general consensus on what they thought was clear.

That statement is so egotistical that even I wouldn't say it. Numerous people in this thread have said what they remember what people were criticising Voyager for when it was on air, but you ignore them and keep on claiming that you remember better.

Nope, it's not. The technobabble in VOY is not significantly more than any of the other shows, that people went into episodes just waiting to tear the show apart just made it easier for them to spot the babble than in the other shows where they weren't waiting to tear into it.

Then why aren't I noticing it in Enterprise? I'm a Niner, right, so I must hate Enterprise too, right? So why am I not noticing anywhere near as much technobabble in Enterprise?

Double Standard.

I wish I had a catchphrase.

Doesn't mean there wouldn't be a racism outcry if they got rid of him.

When only two people even bring it up, it kind of does. For there to be an outcry there needs to be at least 100 or 200 people.

Club members would have more beliefs in common to stay a club, thus explaining the mutual dislike of Neelix. Doesn't mean it was a fandom-wide thing until after the show ended.

Except numerous people are saying otherwise. If 99% of people say that there was widespread hatred of Neelix while Voyager was on the air, does you saying otherwise make them a minority?

Since when?

2006 or 2007. See, you're not stating opinions about a TV show, you're claiming facts about a group of people. If somebody says that they don't like DS9 I have no problem with that, there's plenty of television out there for people to enjoy, but if somebody claims it is a certifiable fact that Niners are a bunch of fuckards... that's something I have a problem with.

It's just double standard again...

Is "blowed up real good" a catchphrase or am I not allowed to claim that since it was around before me?

The Trek Fandom hates Voyager. There are defenders like me, but in comparison to the Haters...less than a drop in the bucket.

Look at the number above. The majority of the Trek fandom does not hate Voyager.

 

[mattyhugh]

The Trek Fandom hates Voyager. There are defenders like me, but in comparison to the Haters...less than a drop in the bucket.

The Charge of the Light Brigade?

 

[Amaris]

While the length of that thread is impressive, TNZ is far too easy because you're allowed to insult and belittle your opponent if you wish, it takes real stamina to argue against a wall while keeping up the appearance of civility.

Ah, yes. Well, the insults do start flying around, oh say, page 2, and that's if we're serious.


J.

 

[Anwar]

I don't know why you've been insulting me and dozens of other Niners for as long as I've known you, but you have.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

That statement is so egotistical that even I wouldn't say it.

You and I both know that's not true .

Numerous people in this thread have said what they remember what people were criticising Voyager for when it was on air, but you ignore them and keep on claiming that you remember better.

Because honestly I WAS there, I DID watch the show, and I can HONESTLY say that hardly anyone I watched the show with complained about any of the stuff you say they should have complained about. Most of your complaints are revisionist stuff that didn't start up until a few years ago anyways.

Then why aren't I noticing it in Enterprise? I'm a Niner, right, so I must hate Enterprise too, right? So why am I not noticing anywhere near as much technobabble in Enterprise?

Double standard.

When only two people even bring it up, it kind of does.

On the net, two are enough because it inspires the silent others who otherwise wouldn't have spoken up.

Except numerous people are saying otherwise.

Only a few, really.

If 99% of people say that there was widespread hatred of Neelix while Voyager was on the air, does you saying otherwise make them a minority?

Not a minority, but I am saying that the Neelix hatred didn't ignite into what it is now until after the show was over for a bit and it became more okay to openly hate VOY in the general Trek fandom.

Look at the number above. The majority of the Trek fandom does not hate Voyager.

Oh yes, it just hates all the characters and all the aliens and all the episodes. That's not hating a show at all!

 

[Anwar]

Ugh, look we've gone nuts again and driven this totally off-topic. So let's just call it quits for this topic.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Like VOY, prefer DS9. That's about it.

 

[TheGodBen]

Then you haven't been paying attention.

I have been paying attention very closely and your reasoning is beyond absurd. One Niner is very harsh towards Voyager so you blame all of us based on his words, that is not acceptable. A tiny group of Muslims destroyed the twin towers in New York, but that doesn't justify anti-Muslim racism. And that's something which actually happened and which cased the deaths of thousands of people, it wasn't a nerd being critical of a television show on message board.

Because honestly I WAS there, I DID watch the show, and I can HONESTLY say that hardly anyone I watched the show with complained about any of the stuff you say they should have complained about. Most of your complaints are revisionist stuff that didn't start up until a few years ago anyways.

Some of them possibly are, yes, but the Neelix one most definitely was not.

On the net, two are enough because it inspires the silent others who otherwise wouldn't have spoken up.

No, on the net two people is still a fringe, like the handful of hardcore TOSers who used to visit the BSG forum while it was still on the air.

Only a few, really.

You're an even smaller few. If fact, you're what we call a "one".

Oh yes, it just hates all the characters and all the aliens and all the episodes. That's not hating a show at all!

Except they don't, most Niners either like Voyager or think it was okay.

Ugh, look we've gone nuts again and driven this totally off-topic. So let's just call it quits for this topic.

I won! Fuck yeah!

 

[RyuRoots]

I won! Fuck yeah!

TheGodBen, this totally just made my day.

 

[apenpaap]

I won! Fuck yeah!

So... Are you confirming you will run for American presidency in 2012?

 

[TheGodBen]

At this time I am fully focused upon my current role as a small-time Star Trek reviewer, but who knows that the future will hold? America thirsts for change, and we in the Duck and Liberty Party will deliver it, even if I am not the party's candidate in three years time.

 

[PSGarak]

^^^

Awesome.

 

[Anwar]

I have been paying attention very closely and your reasoning is beyond absurd.

Because you are a Niner and can't take the criticism?

One Niner is very harsh towards Voyager so you blame all of us based on his words, that is not acceptable.

Seeing how you're general attitude is, you'd have agreed with them anyways which makes it perfectly acceptable.

A tiny group of Muslims destroyed the twin towers in New York, but that doesn't justify anti-Muslim racism. And that's something which actually happened and which cased the deaths of thousands of people, it wasn't a nerd being critical of a television show on message board.

Don't bring real people and real deaths into this, it makes you look desperate.

Some of them possibly are, yes, but the Neelix one most definitely was not.

Yeah it was, the folks I watched VOY with didn't hate him. It only got that way after the show was nearing the end and after it ended.

You're an even smaller few. If fact, you're what we call a "one".

Because I'm the one that had the guts to speak up. Ah well whenever anyone here speaks up against the majority this IS how they often get treated.

Except they don't, most Niners either like Voyager or think it was okay.

Based on what, a poll hardly anyone took seriously to begin with?

I won! Fuck yeah!

Alright, I WAS just going to leave this. But your Niner arrogance (which I pointed out earlier) pulled me back in.

 

[Cygnus]

Hmm, to be honest, personally, Voyager is my least favourite of all Trek. There are good moments, but it appeals least.

 

[Kegg]

Because I'm the one that had the guts to speak up.

So those of us who either observed an animosity towards Neelix during the show's run (and/or entertained such a hatred) are incorrect?

This isn't a case of whether or not those who hated them were the majority, it's a case of whether or not what I witnessed actually existed on the scale I witnessed it exist. My basis for saying Trekkies hated Neelix in the late 1990s/early 2000s is exactly the same for me to make the claim they hated Wesley, a more widely observed fandom hatred.

More pertinently: I've never heard anyone ever say that in the circles they moved in this didn't exist. You're trying to say you've observed and are close enough to the entirety of Trek fandom that this quite literally, spectacularly silent majority exist and have always outnumbered those who hated Neelix, and you are for some reason their sole spokesperson, the only person in the majority of the fandom willing to take this stand - not the stand that you like Neelix (I've seen people say that and I don't abjectly hate him myself, I have a Talaxian avatar for a reason even if it is a tremendously self-deprecating one) - but the stand that the people who dislike him were in the minority when the show was on the air.

What I'm saying is: You're asking me to swallow a whole lot, not least of which is you have a far more holistic knowledge of the Trek fanbase then anyone else posting here. I'm not claiming to be right or an expert, but hell, I just know what I know and I'd like a more convincing explanation if such a thing is available. How does what I observed - the widespread scorn Neelix had on this BBS and a couple of other Trek sites I lurked at - jive with what you observed, in such a way what you observed constituted a majority of Trekkies and what I did, didn't?

Based on what, a poll hardly anyone took seriously to begin with?

This is what I'm talking about. TheGodBen can point to a poll as his evidence for this claim. You literally can just point to your word. You may even be right, but he's sure as hell got the better evidence, and that's how the cookie crumbles.

 

[Amaris]

I won! Fuck yeah!

Alright, I WAS just going to leave this. But your Niner arrogance (which I pointed out earlier) pulled me back in.

Just drop it. The man was making a joke. Either that or take it to PM and quit cluttering up this thread with back and forth sniping. For every post there's something like 10 posts of bickering. It's silly. You know what pulled you back in? YOU pulled you back in. Walk away and leave it alone.

J.

 

[Anwar]

You know what pulled you back in?

GhoulBen, because I tried walking away but he decided to be a jerk about it instead of doing the same.

 

[Amaris]

You know what pulled you back in?

GhoulBen, because I tried walking away but he decided to be a jerk about it instead of doing the same.

He made a joke, which should be obvious to just about anyone, and no, YOU pulled you back in. He didn't force you to post, he didn't force you to read his posts, you can put him on ignore if he bothers you so much, but just knock this crap off. Take responsibility for your own actions and words, and walk away if it bothers you so much.

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

 

[RyuRoots]

You know what pulled you back in?

GhoulBen, because I tried walking away but he decided to be a jerk about it instead of doing the same.

He made a joke, which should be obvious to just about anyone, and no, YOU pulled you back in. He didn't force you to post, he didn't force you to read his posts, you can put him on ignore if he bothers you so much, but just knock this crap off. Take responsibility for your own actions and words, and walk away if it bothers you so much.

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

Bah, don't bother. He's on a holy crusade to show the truth of the Niner-haters or some such nonsense. Do what I do and pull up a chair and grab some popcorn. I've learned the futility of trying to speak rationally on this topic.

 

[Anwar]

YOU pulled you back in.

I tried to walk away, he wouldn't let me.

you can put him on ignore if he bothers you so much

That's the cowards' way out, the way for someone who gave up on their argument and their beliefs.

be an adult and walk away

Tried, he wouldn't let me.