Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS*

[Joel_Kirk]

During the Destiny novels, it seemed like various commanders just wanted to 'ram' their vessels into cubes in order to stop Borg that were orbiting whatever Federation world.

After the transphasic torpedoes didn't seem to work, especially since ships were quickly being heavily damaged...why didn't some commanders break off and retreat?

I kind of feel for the Andorian officer who commented that it seemed useless...before he was stunned to never wake up again. Still, I wouldn't have left the system, but made sure there were other options.

No one is useful dead.

It seemed like the only ships that were saved are the ones who were far away that they weren't called...i.e. the ship that Geordi LaForge's father commanded, or those who were able to use 'thinking' rather phasers like the Da Vinci crew who were able to 'cloak' the planet.

I wasn't able to get into A Singular Destiny, but it seemed like George Sanders of the USS Malinche thought he was going to die. (I hope he didn't)....but it's kind of sad that the only alternative was just 'destroy the vessel, rather than come up with options' was the idea at the time....

I think that is somewhat what occurred with Wolf 359, even when the Federation was just being introduced to the Borg: If you have an unknown species destroying your ships left and right, and phaser fire isn't doing anything....why do you feel that continuing to fire and/or going down with the ship is going to change anything?

It's not...logical.

Sidenote: A book or series must be good if it gets me thinking about it afterwards; and, I'm a hard person to impress...

 

[Christopher]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

During the Destiny novels, it seemed like various commanders just wanted to 'ram' their vessels into cubes in order to stop Borg that were orbiting whatever Federation world.

After the transphasic torpedoes didn't seem to work, especially since ships were quickly being heavily damaged...why didn't some commanders break off and retreat?

Because if they had, the cubes would've annihilated the populations of the planets they were attacking. These ships had hours or minutes to try to save billions of lives, and thus they didn't have the luxury of retreating.

 

[flandry84]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

Man,at one point during the Destiny crisis an allied flotilla sits outside a spaceborne phenomenon when suddenly a mass of Borg cubes emerge and smash the entire lot to pieces.
It reminded me of Wile E Coyote looking down the barrel of a misfiring cannon but on a galactic scale.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

Joel_Kirk
You seem to want to have your cookie and eat it too.

In real life wars, such outcomes are seldom/never achieved. No Hollywood ending.

In "Destiny", Starfleet's "retreat" meant the death of the entire population of the defended planet - BILLIONS; that's incalculable. That's why Starfleet didn't retreat, why its officers fought to the death.

That being said, Starfleet in general and Picard/Riker in particular have been strangely uncreative during the borg invasion. All they did was trade transphasic torpedos with the borg, and when these didn't work anymore, they refused (due to a flawed/unconvincing moral argument) to use a potentially effective thararon weapon.

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

why didn't some commanders break off and retreat?

Who's to say some didn't try?

For that matter, who's to say some didn't try and successfully escape destruction? Just because none of the post-DES books have mentioned them doesn't mean they aren't out there.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

During the Destiny novels, it seemed like various commanders just wanted to 'ram' their vessels into cubes in order to stop Borg that were orbiting whatever Federation world.

After the transphasic torpedoes didn't seem to work, especially since ships were quickly being heavily damaged...why didn't some commanders break off and retreat?

Because if they had, the cubes would've annihilated the populations of the planets they were attacking. These ships had hours or minutes to try to save billions of lives, and thus they didn't have the luxury of retreating.

...But even fighting to the death wasn't doing anything.

Man,at one point during the Destiny crisis an allied flotilla sits outside a spaceborne phenomenon when suddenly a mass of Borg cubes emerge and smash the entire lot to pieces.
It reminded me of Wile E Coyote looking down the barrel of a misfiring cannon but on a galactic scale.

I remember that scene...

Kamikaze Borg.

Joel_Kirk
You seem to want to have your cookie and eat it too.

In real life wars, such outcomes are seldom/never achieved. No Hollywood ending.

In "Destiny", Starfleet's "retreat" meant the death of the entire population of the defended planet - BILLIONS; that's incalculable. That's why Starfleet didn't retreat, why its officers fought to the death.

That being said, Starfleet in general and Picard/Riker in particular have been strangely uncreative during the borg invasion. All they did was trade transphasic torpedos with the borg, and when these didn't work anymore, they refused (due to a flawed/unconvincing moral argument) to use a thararon weapon.

...But many of those people on those planets died anyhow because those Federation ships were fighting a losing battle; as aforementioned, the torpedoes didn't work after awhile...and obviously phasers wouldn't be having an affect...

What is their point of continuing if their weapons aren't having an effect?

It reminds me of the cloud in the TOS episode, 'Obsession,' where it was believed a phaser shot would have affected it; it wasn't until years later did Jim T. Kirk realize it didn't have an effect, and no amount of firing phasers would have done damage or kept the cloud from approaching.

I agree with the creation of the Thalaron (sp?) weapon; at that time, such a weapon was probably needed...

The good of the many...outweighed the over-moralizing(?) of the few...?

why didn't some commanders break off and retreat?

Who's to say some didn't try?

For that matter, who's to say some didn't try and successfully escape destruction? Just because none of the post-DES books have mentioned them doesn't mean they aren't out there.

^^

That is true....

 

[Christopher]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

...But even fighting to the death wasn't doing anything.

In some cases, it was. And you have to try something, at least slow the Borg down enough to let more people get away.

I remember that scene...

Kamikaze Borg.

I doubt that the Borg suffered very many casualties in that case, at least proportionally.

What is their point of continuing if their weapons aren't having an effect?

The point is to save every life you can. The point is to do your duty rather than running away. It's no different from a soldier throwing himself atop a grenade to try to protect the people around him. There may be a dozen more grenades landing in the trench a minute later, so the soldier's sacrifice may not save anyone; but you do what you're trained to do, and if you're a soldier that means putting your life on the line to protect others.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

...But even fighting to the death wasn't doing anything.

In some cases, it was. And you have to try something, at least slow the Borg down enough to let more people get away.

Maybe..

That sort of makes sense...

I remember that scene...

Kamikaze Borg.

I doubt that the Borg suffered very many casualties in that case, at least proportionally.

I agree on that...

What is their point of continuing if their weapons aren't having an effect?

The point is to save every life you can. The point is to do your duty rather than running away. It's no different from a soldier throwing himself atop a grenade to try to protect the people around him. There may be a dozen more grenades landing in the trench a minute later, so the soldier's sacrifice may not save anyone; but you do what you're trained to do, and if you're a soldier that means putting your life on the line to protect others.

I can understand what you're saying, but I still think everyone would be benificial alive than dead.

On the other hand:
It does make sense to have a vessel, no matter how futile, hold off the Borg if there were civilian ships attempting to make it to safety...

 

[chelly]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

I don't think the borg ships would have let the ships escape (the ones who flew into them). If I remember one of them (the one that tried to save the Klingon planet) they were almost dead in the water already. So what they did and some of the others was last ditch effort to save the planet and others who were in harms way.

 

[TigerBait]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

poor bastards

 

[Sci]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

I can understand what you're saying, but I still think everyone would be benificial alive than dead.

That's actually irrelevant. The Federation Starfleet is the Federation's military; its job is to defend the Federation, even unto death. It doesn't matter if doing so will be futile; until or unless it receives explicit orders to abandon Federation space and instead defend refugee conveys fleeing the Borg (a la Battlestar Galactica), it doesn't have the option of fleeing.

On the other hand:
It does make sense to have a vessel, no matter how futile, hold off the Borg if there were civilian ships attempting to make it to safety...

Which there were, on every world being hit.

 

[nx1701g]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

^ I predict this thread will diverge into another Starfleet is/is not the Federation's military.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

^ I predict this thread will diverge into another Starfleet is/is not the Federation's military.

I don't think there's any dispute that Starfleet serves the role of a military during wartime, and this was definitely wartime. So I don't see that being an issue here.

 

[Timo]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

So... What was the exact situation here, as regards regrouping?

It was already stated that transphasic torps were not working. Was there possibly some hope of utilizing another weapon in their stead? If so, one could easily argue that it would be much better to sacrifice a few billion useless civilians and withdraw to a location where the new weapons could be handed out, then attack again to save trillions.

If there was no hope of regaining the ability to resist, then withdrawal wouldn't provide comparable advantages.

If things were really going down the drain, extinction level, then one might also have to start considering unconventional courses of action. Perhaps Starfleet should, say, have started sterilizing its own planets, to deny further Drones from the Borg?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[rahullak]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

^
I doubt if any of those actions would ever be carried out no matter how dire the situation.

 

[Timo]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

Why not? If failing to withdraw condemned mankind to extinction, then wouldn't every starship crew mutiny; murder their captains who callously refused to let, say, Earth die; and then sail to the rearming point that allowed them to do their duty and save mankind?

Some weaklings might just "follow orders" like proper unthinking concentration camp guards, but others would see that Earth had to die so that there would be a tomorrow.

Of course, if there was no hope of rearming, then it would be quite the same how a starship decided to die. Ramming the enemy, or scanning the enemy and sending the information to fellow ships, or running away to found a safe colony... It would be pretty much irrelevant which course of action to take.

In "Best of Both Worlds", the Borg were still news. Starfleet went in huffing and puffing with hubris. In that fight, old notions and inflexible orders would no doubt have been followed. But Destiny is supposed to be different: more is at stake, and more is known. It is clear there that this is the end, that the old rules no longer are valid. At least part of Starfleet would realize that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paris]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

^Maybe Starfleet would have decided to break the temporal prime directive and travel back in time to destroy the Borg, if all else failed and they were facing extinction...

 

[William Leisner]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

Why not? If failing to withdraw condemned mankind to extinction, then wouldn't every starship crew mutiny; murder their captains who callously refused to let, say, Earth die; and then sail to the rearming point that allowed them to do their duty and save mankind?

Some weaklings might just "follow orders" like proper unthinking concentration camp guards, but others would see that Earth had to die so that there would be a tomorrow.

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

If things were really going down the drain, extinction level, then one might also have to start considering unconventional courses of action. Perhaps Starfleet should, say, have started sterilizing its own planets, to deny further Drones from the Borg?

Ah, yes, the Haagen-Daas Key. Err, Osterhagen Key, I mean.

(Sorry, Doctor Who ref.)

That strategy wouldn't have worked at the point of Destiny, as the Borg had already switched to an extermination campaign, rather than an assimilation campaign, against the Federation. If the Federation couldn't be assimilated, it was too dangerous to allow to live, hence the genocidal burning of planets. Starfleet ships burning Federation planets would only play into the Borg strategy.

 

[Cybersnark]

Re: Federation duty/Common sense during the Destiny novels...*SPOILERS

It was already stated that transphasic torps were not working. Was there possibly some hope of utilizing another weapon in their stead?

Some ships did come up with other weapons (IIRC the Excalibur came up with a brilliant improvisation that was never really explained). The trouble was they were caught completely flat-footed and each individual ship needed to do its own R&D while under fire.

The Borg invasion (from the Azure Nebula massacre to the Caeliar's resolution [or the potential destruction of Earth]) spanned what, a day or two at most?

Having a working solution that takes eight hours to implement does absolutely no good if the enemy is three hours away. Especially if you know that this weapon will only give you a handful of shots at best before you're right back to square one.

I'm sure even the thalaron weapon wouldn't have done more than slow the Borg down (the weapon would disable one ship, but then they would find a way to shield against thalaron radiation, or perhaps to continue fighting after their organic components were gone [how complex does a "kill everything" protocol have to be? Even without a working interlink, the Cubes could probably have handled it on "autopilot"]).

If so, one could easily argue that it would be much better to sacrifice a few billion useless civilians

That. . . is not a decision most can willingly make when the "useless civilians" are their own parents/lovers/children.

I doubt even Vulcans would be that cold-blooded.

If things were really going down the drain, extinction level, then one might also have to start considering unconventional courses of action. Perhaps Starfleet should, say, have started sterilizing its own planets, to deny further Drones from the Borg?

The Borg weren't assimilating anymore. Extinction was exactly what they had in mind.

After crushing every known inhabited planet and Starbase, the Borg would no doubt have simply continued until they found every colony, hideout, and refugee fleet.