How do Niners feel about Voyager?

[Amaris]

I like DS9 better than Voyager, but I followed both with dedication. I never understood the fan war. I worry for people who have such strong opinions about fiction as to take someone else's differing opinion personally.

My feelings exactly.

Kind of fun reading through the threads in both forums (forae?) on this topic, but it also reminds me of why I usually stick to watching (or reading) from the sidelines.

Agreed.

I've never understood the level of glee some people take in tearing down something someone else likes. Look, I'm not a big fan of VOY, but I have a number of good friends who adore the show and don't get my enjoyment of DS9. Aside from some friendly ribbing, no one cares what anyone else likes, we all have different tastes in our Trek. Some people like all of Star Trek, some stopped at TOS. Others only care for the new Star Trek universe, and that's great! Seriously, why would someone's dislike of something I enjoy invalidate my enjoyment of it? There's just no need for insults and anger. None.

J.

 

[Kegg]

they would have explained the magically appearing torpedoes

No one cared while the show was on.

Anwar, were you even online when Star Trek: Voyager was on? Because I was, and stuff like them running out of photon torpedoes and having an endless supply of shuttles and a minimum of internal continuity was endlessly pointed out and (in the case of shuttles) heavily ridiculed, right here, in these fora.

As was Neelix a heavily loathed figure with a hate-dom worthy of Wesley Crusher when the series was still on the air. And so on.

 

[Anwar]

Yes, I was. And most of the people I talked to not online didn't have any real problems with how many torpedoes they used and they didn't hate Neelix. I went online and did notice some Neelix hate but it wasn't until after the show ended it really exploded into insanity.

 

[TheGodBen]

Every fandom has its bizarre fringe groups.

Yes, like the 5 people who demanded that the Voyager writers de-fang their villains.

And was DS9 a TNG level success?

No, but lets stick to what you actually said rather than changing the subject. You said it would have been too confusing for a show to have recurring characters in 1995 even though it had already been done in many, many shows before, and even in a show within the same franchise. Anwar, people in the 1990s weren't simpletons, in fact most of them are still alive today and watching television.

They were asking for an impossibility for a show made in 1995.

Not an impossibility, they would just would have had to cut the special effects and pointless action sequences in order to afford new establishing shots for each season. Voyager moved over to CGI in season 3, and Year of Hell showed what could be done at the time.

Bottom line, they all had it and VOY's reputation for loads of it was undeserved.

I just finished watching Voyager and started watching Enterprise, the shear drop in technobabble I'm hearing is like whiplash. Voyager's technobabble reputation is not undeserved.

Get rid of the ethnic minority, or get rid of the blonde white woman. Hm, I wonder who goes?

The Asian guy, until that magazine article. The producers didn't give a crap that Garrett Wang was Asian, all they cared about was the fact that he was supposedly hot.

Nope. The hatred didn't explode into what it is now until the show ended.

Nope, people hated him for a long time, the fact that you couldn't see that proves that you are the one who didn't pay attention to that hating going on while Voyager was on the air. Listen to Kegg, he's ancient.

Yes-sense.

That's not even a word.

They didn't have problems with Tuvok while the show was on.

I have no problem with Tuvok, I very much liked him, people were complaining that he was underused.

Yeah, the audience were really unpleasable when it came to VOY, they wanted the ship to be Hell...

Then why didn't the writers do it? If the audience dictated to the writers what they had to do then how come the writers didn't do it? You've contradicted yourself here and you have completely failed to talk yourself out of it.

...but they hated all the new stuff the writers introduced outside of the ship and forced the writers to get rid of it all. Including the things that would have made life tougher for the crew.

Ever heard of internal conflict? BSG has all that "hell" stuff you claimed the audience wanted and most of the conflict in that show was internal, the Cylons weren't even properly developed until season 3. Some of the greatest moments in that show had humans fighting against humans; the coup against Roslin, the Pegasus arc, the mutiny in season 4.5.

Heh, I knew Niners were going to try and twist that around.

You're getting very close to crossing the line again Anwar, I suggest you back off from attacking Niners as a group lest somebody notify the moderators on you.


I'm going to agree with you that there is something like a double standard, but it is not by Niners against Voyager, it is by everybody against everything. When you love something you are more willing to accept what you perceive to be flaws in other things. Yes, Niners do gloss over the flaws in DS9, and you can choose to be cynical about that and call it a double standard, or you can take a more optimistic viewpoint and call it a love someone has for a TV show.

I once saw someone in the Voyager forum call Chakotay their favourite character and later saw them criticising DS9 for having dull characters. I could have called them out for having a double standard, but what right would I have to do that? That person loved Voyager, and why should I give a toss?

 

[Anwar]

Yes, like the 5 people who demanded that the Voyager writers de-fang their villains.

More like the loads of folk who just plain hated every last original alien VOY created because they didn't want new aliens and only liked the old ones. Good or bad writing had nothing to do with it, it was just plain inherent dislike.

You said it would have been too confusing for a show to have recurring characters in 1995 even though it had already been done in many, many shows before, and even in a show within the same franchise.

Those other shows had the advantage of not being sci-fi and thus had larger audiences anyways, DS9's use of them hadn't kicked in by 1995 and Paramount saw it wasn't making tons of cash like they'd hoped and thus they wanted something different for VOY.

Anwar, people in the 1990s weren't simpletons, in fact most of them are still alive today and watching television.

They changed their minds as time went on, which doesn't change what they thought back in 1995.

Not an impossibility, they would just would have had to cut the special effects and pointless action sequences in order to afford new establishing shots for each season. Voyager moved over to CGI in season 3, and Year of Hell showed what could be done at the time.

For the first two years they'd had to have made new physical models of the ship that were constantly changing and keep altering the sets. Too much money. YoH was just a two-episode thing and thus didn't cost as much as if they kept doing it for the rest of the series.

I just finished watching Voyager and started watching Enterprise, the shear drop in technobabble I'm hearing is like whiplash. Voyager's technobabble reputation is not undeserved.

Double standard, it's no more than the other shows. It just sticks out more in VOY because of the inherent dislike for the show.

The Asian guy, until that magazine article. The producers didn't give a crap that Garrett Wang was Asian, all they cared about was the fact that he was supposedly hot.

It was half the TIME article, half that he was Asian. It would certainyl be seen as a borderline racist case today if they had let him go.

Nope, people hated him for a long time, the fact that you couldn't see that proves that you are the one who didn't pay attention to that hating going on while Voyager was on the air. Listen to Kegg, he's ancient.

I was there, and I saw for myself there wasn't that much dislike for him.

I have no problem with Tuvok, I very much liked him, people were complaining that he was underused.

He was hated because the fans thought it was dumb that a Vulcan could resemble an African-American. They thought he should've been green or red skinned or something.

Then why didn't the writers do it? If the audience dictated to the writers what they had to do then how come the writers didn't do it? You've contradicted yourself here and you have completely failed to talk yourself out of it.

Because they complained MORE about the aliens than anything else, plus, UPN had directly ordered them against the "turn the ship into hell" thing.

Ever heard of internal conflict? BSG has all that "hell" stuff you claimed the audience wanted and most of the conflict in that show was internal, the Cylons weren't even properly developed until season 3. Some of the greatest moments in that show had humans fighting against humans; the coup against Roslin, the Pegasus arc, the mutiny in season 4.5.

Most of which wouldn't make any sense for VOY in the first place. If they had a ragtag fleet of thousands upon thousands, maybe. But not for a small ship of 130. So now the fans wanted NONSENSICAL conflict between the characters? Ah well, I guess that's on par since they also wanted them to all be bloodthirsty rampaging monsters, without exception.

You're getting very close to crossing the line again Anwar, I suggest you back off from attacking Niners as a group lest somebody notify the moderators on you.

Hey, it was you fellows who tried to twist it around in the first place. Take some responsibility.

Yes, Niners do gloss over the flaws in DS9, and you can choose to be cynical about that and call it a double standard[/quote]

Replace "cynical" with "realistic".

 

[Jono]

You said it would have been too confusing for a show to have recurring characters in 1995 even though it had already been done in many, many shows before, and even in a show within the same franchise.

Those other shows had the advantage of not being sci-fi and thus had larger audiences anyways, DS9's use of them hadn't kicked in by 1995 and Paramount saw it wasn't making tons of cash like they'd hoped and thus they wanted something different for VOY.

That seems a bit conflicting. If DS9 wasn't using recurring characters by 1995 then Paramount should have had VOY having recurring characters if they wanted something different from the malfunctioning DS9.

That said I'm pretty sure Dukat, Garak, Winn and others did appear before 1996 on the show.

 

[DevilEyes]

I do have a "double standard" - I am far more bothered about and tend to complain a lot more about (what I see as) flaws in my favorite shows, than in those I am indifferent to or that I find just OK. As seen in my hatred and contempt for episodes like "Fascination" or the particularly sucky Ferengi episodes, and in my endless ranting about the Pah-wraiths, red eye Dukat and possessed Sarah Sisko.

 

[TheGodBen]

More like the loads of folk who just plain hated every last original alien VOY created because they didn't want new aliens and only liked the old ones. Good or bad writing had nothing to do with it, it was just plain inherent dislike.

Or, you know, some people are capable of independent thought and what they consider to be good or bad writing differs from your opinion. Remember that blonde chick on Voyager with the big bazumbas? Remember how she had this big thing about learning to be an individual? You should probably watch Voyager again and learn the lesson that was repeatedly beaten into the audiences head but which you still seem to have trouble understanding.

They changed their minds as time went on, which doesn't change what they thought back in 1995.

While I'm sure it makes you happy to think that you know exactly what everyone alive in 1995 was thinking, you actually don't.

Double standard, it's no more than the other shows. It just sticks out more in VOY because of the inherent dislike for the show.

No, it is more, I know this because I've just finished watching all of it.

It was half the TIME article, half that he was Asian. It would certainyl be seen as a borderline racist case today if they had let him go.

No, it wouldn't. Lost killed or wrote off all their black characters and nobody batted an eye-lid. The same is true with BSG. The only people I have ever heard make the claim that killing Kim would have been seen as racist is you and exodus (I think), most other people realise that Kim wasn't going anywhere as a character and Garrett Wang wasn't that strong an actor.

I was there, and I saw for myself there wasn't that much dislike for him.

Kegg says otherwise. I admire Kegg because he is capable of sensible and persuasive arguments in a wide array of subjects. I'm going to trust Kegg over you on this one, okay?

I wasn't online during the early days of Voyager, but I was in a Star Trek fanclub with 20 or so other people and I remember we all hated or disliked Neelix. Neelix was particularly detestable in the early seasons before they tuned him down.

He was hated because the fans thought it was dumb that a Vulcan could resemble an African-American. They thought he should've been green or red skinned or something.

While it is true that some people questioned whether a Vulcan could have dark skin like ours, I have never seen a complaint that Tim Russ was in the show too much. Stay on point Anwar.

Replace "cynical" with "realistic".

I am a cynical person, but I also know when to be optimistic and not let other people's opinions get to me.

 

[flemm]

I like DS9 better than Voyager, but I followed both with dedication. I never understood the fan war. I worry for people who have such strong opinions about fiction as to take someone else's differing opinion personally.

I'm not sure I understand either, but it can make for a good spectator sport.

The Indefatigable GodBen vs. The Unrelenting Anwar, Round 17!

*pulls up a chair*

 

[Sakrysta]

Actually, I'm finding the back-and-forth tiresome. It's obvious neither will convince the other. I'm amazed by their stamina.

 

[flemm]

Actually, I'm finding the back-and-forth tiresome. It's obvious neither will convince the other. I'm amazed by their stamina.

That's how I feel about football, so I know what you mean

 

[PSGarak]

You're getting very close to crossing the line again Anwar, I suggest you back off from attacking Niners as a group lest somebody notify the moderators on you.

Hey, it was you fellows who tried to twist it around in the first place. Take some responsibility.

No, it was one person who made that comment, not "fellows", not "Niners". Why should GodBen or anyone else take some responsibility for a comment somebody else made? You've been warned and even actioned for trolling DS9 fans, and you are still doing it.

 

[Amaris]

Actually, I'm finding the back-and-forth tiresome. It's obvious neither will convince the other. I'm amazed by their stamina.

You apparently do not visit TNZ very often. One time we had an entire debate on the merits of the definition of defining any state of probability in regard to religion and it's authenticity, and it went on for a hundred pages and not one person had budged from their initial opinions.

Now THAT's stamina! 7 pages? Fuggedaboutit!


J.

 

[Kegg]

Kegg says otherwise. I admire Kegg because he is capable of sensible and persuasive arguments in a wide array of subjects. I'm going to trust Kegg over you on this one, okay?

That's very flattering. Incidentally, and I must admit I never got around to saying this on your review threads and I ought: they're very excellent reads. Insightful, funny, and superbly written. I probably should have said that in your ENT thread, so that's an admittedly churlish omission of mine.

I wasn't online during the early days of Voyager,

And truthfully, neither was I. Just from the latter half of the fifth season on, and on this forum from late 2000. But the Neelix hatred was thick and fast by that point, to the point I felt uncomfortable liking the ending to "Homecoming" (how am I going to justify liking the sendoff sort of uncomfortable).

So I obviously have no idea what the initial reaction to the character was and how quickly a widespread hatred towards Neelix became ensconced, but I can definitely confirm that he was widely vilified when VOY was still on the air.

I'm honestly not sure why Anwar would need to maintain that Neelix was only hated after VOY went off the air. Now, if that was his experience, alright, but I think there's enough of us to have seen otherwise for it to be reasonable for him to assume there was alot of vilification he wasn't familiar with. And people hating Neelix can be easily inserted into his general narrative of DS9 fans bashing VOY (as many of them were Niners, naturally), so I'm not sure why he'd have to say hatred of Neelix is something that first flowered after the show was finished.

If anything, I'd say it's less of an issue now. All of VOY is less of an issue now. People just no longer care all that much. When VOY was the only Star Trek series airing and thus our sole source of regular new Trek, well, we cared a lot more. And the DS9/VOY rivalry I think really just stems from the fact the two shows were airing simultaneously with each other for most of their respective runs, in addition to being two very different approaches to Star Trek.

Addendum: While obviously I wasn't around for Anwar's stated '8472 are too powerful they must be defanged' period to happen, it was definitely the case that how they were handled in that episode was one of the things that quite frequently came up for criticism. They were generally pretty popular (that a diehard Niner went by 8-4-7-2 should say something, perhaps), and personally I always liked the race.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

About Tuvok--there are SOME of us who actually thought seeing different ethnicities in aliens, like the Vulcans and Bajorans, was a GOOD move. While it's interesting that said ethnicities would fall along similar lines as humanity, you can always explain it with the "common ancestor" bit.

(Heck, I even work in my fanfic with the idea of the Cardassians having different ethnicities, though those fall along different lines than the human ones.)

Just because I didn't like Voyager overall doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the good bits where I see them. And that's in the same way that just because I love DS9 doesn't mean I can't acknowledge its mistakes.

ETA: Kegg--what about Usenet posts? Anything else archived?

 

[Kegg]

About Tuvok--there are SOME of us who actually thought seeing different ethnicities in aliens, like the Vulcans and Bajorans, was a GOOD move.

I'd like to second that. More to the point: Tim Russ was just damn good as a Vulcan. Vulcans are hard to pull off - having a degree of depth while remaining stoic and logical just isn't easy (truthfully, I didn't think Blalock was half as good as Russ). My main beef about Tuvok is he wasn't used enough. That's it.

ETA: Kegg--what about Usenet posts? Anything else archived?

Nope, but I've seen an archive version of the TrekBBS which had some posts authored by me.

 

[Anwar]

Or, you know, some people are capable of independent thought and what they consider to be good or bad writing differs from your opinion.

I don't know why you decided to start insulting my capacity for sentient thought, but in this case the whole thing on "good" and "bad" writing is objective and not subjective. And it was inherent dislike for the aliens that writing couldn't solve.

While I'm sure it makes you happy to think that you know exactly what everyone alive in 1995 was thinking, you actually don't.

I remember quite clearly, and yes the general consensus on what they thought was clear.

No, it is more, I know this because I've just finished watching all of it.

Nope, it's not. The technobabble in VOY is not significantly more than any of the other shows, that people went into episodes just waiting to tear the show apart just made it easier for them to spot the babble than in the other shows where they weren't waiting to tear into it.

No, it wouldn't. Lost killed or wrote off all their black characters and nobody batted an eye-lid. The same is true with BSG.

Double Standard.

The only people I have ever heard make the claim that killing Kim would have been seen as racist is you and exodus (I think), most other people realise that Kim wasn't going anywhere as a character and Garrett Wang wasn't that strong an actor.

Doesn't mean there wouldn't be a racism outcry if they got rid of him.

I wasn't online during the early days of Voyager, but I was in a Star Trek fanclub with 20 or so other people and I remember we all hated or disliked Neelix. Neelix was particularly detestable in the early seasons before they tuned him down.

Club members would have more beliefs in common to stay a club, thus explaining the mutual dislike of Neelix. Doesn't mean it was a fandom-wide thing until after the show ended.

I am a cynical person, but I also know when to be optimistic and not let other people's opinions get to me.

Since when?

 

[Anwar]

Addendum: While obviously I wasn't around for Anwar's stated '8472 are too powerful they must be defanged' period to happen, it was definitely the case that how they were handled in that episode was one of the things that quite frequently came up for criticism. They were generally pretty popular (that a diehard Niner went by 8-4-7-2 should say something, perhaps), and personally I always liked the race.

It's just double standard again, the fans hated the 8472 and thought they were too powerful and looked too silly, but when the writers DID depower them and get rid of them the audience just hated that they did. The fans were just so wrapped up in their hatred they didn't know what they wanted.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

/\ So... Voyager fans hate Voyager?

 

[Anwar]

The Trek Fandom hates Voyager. There are defenders like me, but in comparison to the Haters...less than a drop in the bucket.