What's the interdimensional calling code for fluidic space?
I bet Jenny would know...
Please Explain The V'Ger-Borg Theory
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I bet Jenny would know...
Ya, I believe this was the first "link" between the two, and I have to say I was never really into the idea. There just didn't need to be a link drawn between the two.
I don't think there's any connection between V'Ger and the Borg.
Nor Trelane and Q.
Nor Sargon's people, the Preservers, and the ancient humanoids from The Chase.
The Trek universe is a big place, folks. There's plenty of room for multiple races with a few similarities to show up.
Nor Trelane and Q.
Nor Sargon's people, the Preservers, and the ancient humanoids from The Chase.
The Trek universe is a big place, folks. There's plenty of room for multiple races with a few similarities to show up.
Espacially when you account for all the alien races who are exactly like humans. If they can exist, why can't there be more than one cybernetic race?
I bet Jenny would know...
"We are the Borg. We've got your number. We're gonna make you ours."
Proof! 1980s pop was created by the Borg--probably as an inverse transtemporal multiphasic side effect of the time travel in First Contact. Think about it--it explains all the synthesizers.
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Aren't the Borg after perfection? Seems to me their 'singularity' would be assimilating and using the Omega particle.
The Borg's idea of perfection is about fusing the organic and the technological -- "the best of both worlds." V'Ger is pure technology, without a trace of anything organic, without any interest in anything organic. So V'Ger is nothing like the Borg's idea of perfection.
If that were the case, wouldn't the Borg occupy much more of the Delta Quadrant than they seem to? Considering VOY and looking at Star Charts, the volume of space they control isn't terribly large which is strange as few DQ species have the tech levels to effectively combat their expansion. They're space zombies, spreading like a virus that in a thousand years should have swept through not just the DQ, but the entire galaxy. To me, it's more plausible they have been around only a few hundred years at best.
Recall Q's comment on them:
That's the initial take on the Borg, when they had no interest in assimilating other species. By that light, the Machine Planet, arguably the ultimate expression of technology, would be irresistible to the Borg. Even considering the change in the premise driving them to the blending of biology and technology, the Machine Planet could represent their Holy Grail, the key to achieving the perfection they seek. In either case, assimilating it would be a vital goal for the Borg, assuming they know about it. Of course, cubes trying to assimilate the Machine Planet would be swatted like flies so perhaps that futile quest is what's keeping the Borg population down.
1000 was a mistake on my part, but not much of one. The actual number was 900. The Voyager episode Dragon's Teeth features aliens who were frozen in stasis for 900 years, and they speak of encounters with the Borg they had back in their day.
Q also said that the Borg had been "evolving with their machinery for thousands of centuries." Unless one intends to take the David Croenenberg view--that all technology, from stone knives to iPods, represent a kind of cyborgization, in which case we've been evolving with our machinery for at least a thousand centuries ourselves--the Borg seem rather stagnant. Indeed, I'd say such a species would more resemble Giger's Alien than the steam punkish beings we saw on TNG (though the Borg do look more Gigerish from FC on).
I do like the idea of a swarm of Borg cubes futilely trying to assimilate the Machine Planet, especially since I imagine the machines lack even Borg-level emotions. They wouldn't even be annoyed. But considering how "generous"* the machines were to poor ol' Voyager 6, what's to stop them from assisting a Borg cube in a similar fashion. Maybe that's what created the Q?
(I kid! I kid!)
*The word is in quotes because it only appears to be generosity to our selfish, pleasure-seeking, pain-averse meat mainframes. I imagine the machines have a value system that I can't imagine.
You're underestimating just how immense the galaxy is. Look at the galaxy map on pp. 12-13 of Star Charts. The Federation is so tiny that it only appears as a dot. That little sphere labelled "Local Space" encompasses the UFP and all its neighbors with room to spare; it corresponds to the inset map on the second foldout in back. In several centuries, the Federation and its neighbors haven't incorporated enough territory even to be visible on the scale of the full-galaxy map. Borg territory is immense in comparison. I estimate that the Borg territory shown in Star Charts is anywhere from 500 to 1000 times bigger in volume than the territory held by the Federation and all its neighbors combined. And that's not even a comprehensive representation of Borg territory; it only covers the major concentrations of Borg presence in the Delta and Beta Quadrants. The transwarp network map in "Endgame" suggested that the Borg had at least enclaves in all four quadrants.
The galaxy contains several hundred billion star systems. It's far vaster than the human mind can begin to comprehend. Even if the Borg have only conquered 5% of the galactic disk, that's still a mind-bogglingly gigantic empire, orders of magnitude bigger than any other astropolitical entity we've ever seen in Trek.
Beside the point. It's not about species, it's about organic vs. technological. Even the "Q Who" Borg were a fusion of the technological and the biological. V'Ger didn't even know what biological organisms were, nor did it particularly care.
Maybe, hypothetically, if they knew about it. However, that does not even remotely demonstrate that either the Borg created V'Ger or that V'Ger created the Borg. Either way, a "family" relationship between the two is a ludicrous proposition, and unsupported hypotheticals about what interest the Borg might have in the Machine Planet don't change that.
Isn't a relationship suggested in the latest Nero comic book? The Narada equipped with Borg technology is called by V'Ger in the Delta Quadrant.
Regarding Q's initial characterization of the Borg, it would be easy to view it as the Borg being interested in the technology of the E-D specifically and disinterested in Picard specifically. No reason to expand that to a general disinterest in humans, or in biological life in general...
Regarding the extent of Borg spread in "Dragon's Teeth", what would the Waadwaur know? The Borg are secretive if anything, from their very first "appearance" in TNG "The Neutral Zone" through all of their VOY stories, and especially "Dark Frontier" where they are compared to Bigfoot. Q's claim of hundreds of millennia of Borg existence isn't in necessary contradiction with the Waadwaur misconception.
As for "Borg territory", we don't really know its extent. If the Borg themselves drew the map, it would probably encompass Earth. A small part of Borg territory was cursorily mapped by our heroes for the purpose of finding the "Northwest Passage", then quickly left behind thanks to Kes. Most of the Beta, Alpha and Gamma quadrants might consist of such spiderwebbing of Borg territory as well, with every tenth nebula hiding a dark secret...
The idea of spatial expansion might well be moot for the Borg anyway. They could already control the entire galaxy, much like ants already control the entire Earth. Their control just wouldn't manifest in the same sort of primitive territorial claims that characterize UFP-style empires.
If we accept that the Borg are ancient and that they have been witnessed basically everywhere already, or certainly with full access to every part of the galaxy, then it's not that far-fetched to interpret every single loose piece of the puzzle as another aspect of the Borg. It's their game, so all the pieces might just as well be theirs.
Also, the Borg seek perfection. But what they find may not be what they intended to find. Quite possibly, one approach to finding perfection resulted in the creation of a machine planet that wants to assimilate cute little space probes and turn them into emissaries, while another resulted in noncorporeal existence, even when the bulk of Borgdom stayed at the unenlightened cyborg state. That's the very nature of singularities as postulated in Vernor Vinge's fiction and nonfiction: you never know what lurks behind the corner, because all assumptions break down on the threshold to divinity.
Timo Saloniemi
Regarding the extent of Borg spread in "Dragon's Teeth", what would the Waadwaur know? The Borg are secretive if anything, from their very first "appearance" in TNG "The Neutral Zone" through all of their VOY stories, and especially "Dark Frontier" where they are compared to Bigfoot. Q's claim of hundreds of millennia of Borg existence isn't in necessary contradiction with the Waadwaur misconception.
As for "Borg territory", we don't really know its extent. If the Borg themselves drew the map, it would probably encompass Earth. A small part of Borg territory was cursorily mapped by our heroes for the purpose of finding the "Northwest Passage", then quickly left behind thanks to Kes. Most of the Beta, Alpha and Gamma quadrants might consist of such spiderwebbing of Borg territory as well, with every tenth nebula hiding a dark secret...
The idea of spatial expansion might well be moot for the Borg anyway. They could already control the entire galaxy, much like ants already control the entire Earth. Their control just wouldn't manifest in the same sort of primitive territorial claims that characterize UFP-style empires.
If we accept that the Borg are ancient and that they have been witnessed basically everywhere already, or certainly with full access to every part of the galaxy, then it's not that far-fetched to interpret every single loose piece of the puzzle as another aspect of the Borg. It's their game, so all the pieces might just as well be theirs.
Also, the Borg seek perfection. But what they find may not be what they intended to find. Quite possibly, one approach to finding perfection resulted in the creation of a machine planet that wants to assimilate cute little space probes and turn them into emissaries, while another resulted in noncorporeal existence, even when the bulk of Borgdom stayed at the unenlightened cyborg state. That's the very nature of singularities as postulated in Vernor Vinge's fiction and nonfiction: you never know what lurks behind the corner, because all assumptions break down on the threshold to divinity.
Timo Saloniemi
No, I'm well aware of how vast the galaxy is. I'm also aware that even with sublight colony ships, humanity could completely colonize the entire galaxy within a few million years. For example, from this MIT article:
The Borg had warp then transwarp drive meaning if they have been around for hundreds of thousands of years or longer, they should spread through the galaxy in a tiny fraction of the five million year figure cited above thoroughly enough to eliminate any civilizations inferior to them. Without question, they control the largest area of space in the galaxy; my point is it should be bigger. True, the Borg do have a presence throughout the galaxy it is possible they have left many less-developed civilizations alone in order to allow them to evolve until deemed ready for assimilation though we've never seen the patience required displayed by the Borg.
I did not suggest at any point the Machine Planet had a hand in creating the Borg nor have I ever supported that theory. The vast difference in their technological capabilities is obvious and difficult, if not impossible, to plausibly reconcile. And I dislike the notion that everything is connected to everything else in the Trek universe. On that point we agree. What I disputed, perhaps not clearly enough, was your dismissal of any Borg interest in the Machine Planet's purely technological civilization--
-- hence my citation of Q above supporting their potential interest in the Machine Planet.
Which raises the possibility that the Borg have encountered the Machine Planet and seeing it as a perfect example of an ordered society of living machines, left it in peace, something to aspire to, not assimilate.
That's what inspired me to start this thread, actually.
The Borg-V'Ger Relationship?
Well, it started as one or two dates, but it didn't work out, so they agreed to just be friends. However, V'Ger got very serious about this "creator" guy, and the Borg got really jealous, so they started to whore themselves out to the entire galaxy.
Well, it started as one or two dates, but it didn't work out, so they agreed to just be friends. However, V'Ger got very serious about this "creator" guy, and the Borg got really jealous, so they started to whore themselves out to the entire galaxy.
"Stagnant" is a culturally biased value judgment. Our society has been undergoing rapid technological and social change for a few centuries now, and that leads us to assume that such swift progress is the natural order of things and that there must be something wrong with any society that isn't advancing at a comparable pace. But that's not true. If you look at the whole sweep of history worldwide, our current rate of progress is an exception to the norm.
Evolution, whether biological, social, or technological, is not a process of constant change, but one of punctuated equilibrium. A species or society spends most of its time in a stable configuration that is adapted to its needs and its environment. When its conditions change, it undergoes rapid change to adapt, and when a new equilibrium is reached, the rate of change slows greatly. That's not stagnation, just stability.
Of course, the Borg don't really evolve at all. They claim they're all about assimilating new things and improving themselves, but as a rule, they suppress or discard anything that doesn't fit their preconceived notions of what's "relevant." However, we have seen punctuated equilibrium applying to the Borg as well. They changed considerably between TNG and VGR -- most likely as a consequence of their war with Species 8472, which forced them to change the way they did a number of things (like the way the totally decentralized Borg cubes of TNG gave way to a more centralized technology with distinct transwarp coils and vinculums and so on -- perhaps as a way of isolating systems to prevent the spread of 8472 biomatter infection).
The only evidence we have that they've been around that long is one reference from Q, who is hardly a trustworthy source. Metatextually speaking, the concept of the Borg has been refined and modified continuously since their debut episode; many of "Q Who"'s assumptions about the Borg have been retconned away, and this is one of them. Later references suggest the Borg are far younger; for instance, "Dragon's Teeth" indicated that as of 1484 CE, the Borg controlled only a handful of systems.
The Destiny novel trilogy pegs the date of the Borg's origin as 4527 BCE, about 6000 years before the date referenced in "Dragon's Teeth" and about 6900 years before the TNG era. If you accept that, it suggests that either the Borg needed a very long time to achieve warp travel or that they were beaten back several times over the course of history.
Huh? I only said that the Machine Planet did not represent their idea of perfection. That is not at all the same thing as saying that they would have no interest in it. I mean, they have plenty of interest in humans despite considering them highly imperfect. In fact, I'm fairly certain I did say at some other point that I agreed they would find the Machine Planet interesting, if they ever encountered it. I have no problem with that hypothetical; I simply don't wish it to be mistaken for endorsement of the inane idea that there's some familial or procreative connection between the Borg and V'Ger.
But our technological explosion--unlike anything the universe has seen as far as we know--is all we know (and it's so much of a mind-blower even to us that we have to ascribe irrational origins for it, whether it's Prometheus giving fire to the ancient Greeks or reverse engineered alien tech at Area 51 giving us cell phones). Thus, I think that the term "biased"--while technically correct--carries unfairly loaded connotations in this instance. Indeed, if anything, Star Trek's fetish for ostensibly humanoid species that have been in space for millennia or hundreds of millennia longer than we have--the Bajorans, the Vulcans, the Klingons--yet have technology so slow to advance that we can catch up and surpass them within fifty or a hundred years of heading into space shows a much more plain bias, a human chauvinism that would be offensive if a) humanoid aliens were real and b) the idea weren't so silly to begin with.
Alternately, to invoke a point we've already agreed upon, a Borg that had been evolving with its tech for thousands of centuries should be at least as powerful and advanced as Vejur. The term singularity is getting thrown around a lot in this thread. Let me give it a toss: If a reputable futurist thinks we can go from Univac to the singularity in under a hundred and fifty years, I don't think I'm being too biased if I say that the Borg are a rather unimaginative* representation of a species that's been tech dominated for longer than we've been a species. I know VOY ret-conned a lot of that away but that was my original point.
*And, of course, the introduction of a Borg Queen represented an utter bankruptcy of imagination but at least a fine actress played her.
Maybe, maybe not. Lore's lost Borg embraced Lore's plan to remake the Borg as the Droid--that is, to make them wholly artificial. Maybe Lore gave them that aspiration, maybe it was there all along
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Actually, it's not TOO much beyond explanation. Let's assume that the people who found it after its black hole slingshot did take its programming literally. Now, let's assume they did NOT make the VGer that appears in TMP.
No. They upgraded some routines, added a sophsticated learning AI and a repair and upgrading system and sent it along its merry way. Things that we may now even consider minor for our tech, but could spiral 'out of control' after the many years in the interim. All the while that VGer was recording, it TOO was improving and assimilating.
What reaches Earth in TMP was neither Voyager 6, nor was it the damaged time-lost probe. It was simply a simple probe, augmented with some self-improvement tech, sent along its merry way for far too long.
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