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Gul Dukat Rules - Favorite Moment

It really doesn't matter what kind of killing there was... Dukat did his job for Cardassia ... he is a good soldier and leader.
That was the excuse most of the Nazi war criminals used at Neurenberg. "Just following orders" wasn't good enough then, and it shouldn't be.
You have to forget about all that stuff and forgive man.
If Dukat actually felt sorry for the things he did, then maybe he could be forgiven, but he didn't. Why should he be forgiven if he doesn't even feel he did anything wrong?
What if they got stuck on a planet and it was just the two of them growing old together .. you mean she has to HATE him for life? She has to live for eternity with the burden of hate?
Exactly. I doubt she would stay with him though in such a case. Planets are big places, and she could easily put 10000 km between them.
Let me ask you this: if you and Adolf Hitler were stuck on a planet, would you forgive him for the things he's done?
 
It really doesn't matter what kind of killing there was... Dukat did his job for Cardassia ... he is a good soldier and leader.
You have to forget about all that stuff and forgive man. What if they got stuck on a planet and it was just the two of them growing old together .. you mean she has to HATE him for life? She has to live for eternity with the burden of hate?

Actually, when it comes to the question of loving somebody, it doesn't matter what kind of killing there was. What matters is what Kira and Bajor thinks happened. And I ask you, what do Kira and Bajor think Dukat did to Cardassia? And given that, what are the chances that she could ever, ever care about him at all?

Zero.

As for your last point...who can say? They didn't end up on a planet together alone, just as a Nazi commandant and a hero of the French Resistance didn't end up on an island alone. So who knows what would have happened? Who knows what Kira and Dukat would have become under those circumstances? Presumably they would be different people, so it really doesn't apply to the characters we know, does it?
 
I would also add that one can work on not being consumed by hatred for someone who's done you wrong in the past WITHOUT having to enter into some sort of romantic relationship, or diminish the wrongness of what that person has done. Sometimes, when you move on and the other person does not (as Dukat did not), the only healthy thing to do is to LEAVE THEM BEHIND because they are totally incapable of ever keeping up.
 
It really doesn't matter what kind of killing there was... Dukat did his job for Cardassia ... he is a good soldier and leader.
You have to forget about all that stuff and forgive man. What if they got stuck on a planet and it was just the two of them growing old together .. you mean she has to HATE him for life? She has to live for eternity with the burden of hate?

Actually, when it comes to the question of loving somebody, it doesn't matter what kind of killing there was. What matters is what Kira and Bajor thinks happened. And I ask you, what do Kira and Bajor think Dukat did to Cardassia? And given that, what are the chances that she could ever, ever care about him at all?

So you at least agree with me on the matter of past atrocities committed by either side?? Wooohooo... I shall slowly dissect this debate and begin winning line by line :cool:
 
It really doesn't matter what kind of killing there was... Dukat did his job for Cardassia ... he is a good soldier and leader.
You have to forget about all that stuff and forgive man. What if they got stuck on a planet and it was just the two of them growing old together .. you mean she has to HATE him for life? She has to live for eternity with the burden of hate?

Actually, when it comes to the question of loving somebody, it doesn't matter what kind of killing there was. What matters is what Kira and Bajor thinks happened. And I ask you, what do Kira and Bajor think Dukat did to Cardassia? And given that, what are the chances that she could ever, ever care about him at all?

So you at least agree with me on the matter of past atrocities committed by either side?? Wooohooo... I shall slowly dissect this debate and begin winning line by line :cool:

How did you get the interpretation of agreement on past atrocities by both sides with anything in that statement? I don't see that interpretation at all, and no, I don't think you will ever convince anyone who already believes differently that those two should ever have gotten together.
 
^ I have to agree with Enabrain Tainted/PSGarak - what in the world are you talking about, Mystic? Yeah, of course there were atrocities committed by both sides. So what? There were atrocities committed by American Indians during the conquest of the Americas (and by innumerable conquered peoples throughout the ages in this world of ours) but that doesn't excuse what was done to them.

According to my moral and ethical code, while atrocities are never excusable, atrocities committed by the powerful are more unforgivable than atrocities committed by the oppressed. With greater power comes greater responsibility. Cardassia abused its power, and by the way, it had no moral right to that authority in the first place, so yes, what it did to Bajor was worse than anything Bajor did to Cardassia. You cannot say, "Oh, but what Bajorans did cancels out what Cardassias did" any more than you can say "The massacre of those white settlers cancels out the Trail of Tears." Well, OK, you can say it, but it won't be true. Two wrongs don't make a right.

But that's not my main point. What I was trying to do, Mystic, in my ealier post was to get past the whole issue of whether Dukat was a hero or a monster. I think one thing, you think another. Whatever. In the end, when it comes to a relationship between him and Kira, it doesn't really matter.

Because when you are talking about the motivations of a specific individual, such as Kira Nerys, the "truth" no longer matters. What matters is how that person interprets the truth. To Kira (and to me and to the DS9 writers, but that's a side issue), the truth is that Dukat is a monster - a fascinating, compelling, complicated monster, but a monster nonetheless. To Bajor, the truth is that Dukat is a monster. Even if Dukat has facts to back up his claim that he was a hero - which he does not, but again, that's not pertinent in this particular post - that doesn't matter. Bajor has judged him. Kira has judged him. And there is nothing Dukat can say that will change that, despite your fevent (and to me inexplicable) wish that something had. She would never, ever have considered him even as a friend, much less a lover.

Here's another thing that just occurred to me last night. Setting aside what you want to do to the character of Kira, dismaying as I find that to be, what I really just cannot get over what you want to do to Dukat.

Here we have this fabulous villain - easily the most interesting villain in the history of Trek and one of the great villains in all fiction, IMO. He's complicated, he's ambiguous, he's compelling, he's charismatic, he's alluring, he's subtle, and he's a genuinely yet realistically bad person.

And you want to turn him into a romantic hero, the kind of guy who just needs the love of a good woman to turn a new page. You want to turn him into somebody who'd fit on the cover of a scifi romance novel. And you want to take this fantastic, complicated relationship that he and Kira had and turn it into "Guy meets girl. Girl misunderstands guy. Girl hates guy. Girl finds out that she really loves guy." You want to turn it into a plot that would fit perfectly in sappy romantic melodrama. Jeez, it would even fit a romantic comedy. Euw! Euuuuuuuuuuuuuwwwwwww! Why?
 
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^What she said. I don't have anything pertinent to add, except the idea of changing a perfectly good villain into a bodice-ripper cover-boy is just twenty kinds of wrong.

*shudder*
 
@DiaboliKate:

Why would you want to get past the point if Dukat is a hero or not? That is one of the main things that determine if you love someone or not. His character is important. He is portrayed as a "monster" if you look at it simply... but like you said.. he is a complicated character. That is what should turn Kira on to him. That is why it would be a wonderful step for Bajor seeing them together and bringing in a new life... that is half and half... both worlds would relish in their newborn... that came out of love for both of their peoples. You guys have to get of the so called "atrocities".
 
"So-called atrocities?!"

My God, you sound JUST like one of the Occupation-deniers I wrote into my own fanfic! :cardie: Are you seriously going to deny that there is sufficient evidence, seen in the series, of Cardassian atrocities?! We've seen the conditions on Terok Nor--the slavery, the beatings, the arbitrary "justice," the kidnapping of "comfort women" to perform sexual "services" for Cardassian soldiers, seen how the planet looked right after the withdrawal, seen the refugee camps...I think we've seen more than enough.
 
@DiaboliKate:

Why would you want to get past the point if Dukat is a hero or not? That is one of the main things that determine if you love someone or not. His character is important. He is portrayed as a "monster" if you look at it simply... but like you said.. he is a complicated character. That is what should turn Kira on to him. That is why it would be a wonderful step for Bajor seeing them together and bringing in a new life... that is half and half... both worlds would relish in their newborn... that came out of love for both of their peoples. You guys have to get of the so called "atrocities".

Let's cut to the chase here. Scenario:

A sexually attractive and quite charming man sexually enslaves some of your friends and your mother and murders a few others who are close to you. Not random people you don't know, friends and family members. Not only that, he is responsible for telling others to do the same to other people you also know and love. Not once, not one single time does this man ever admit that what he did is wrong. In fact he tells you point blank that he improved your family and friends by forcing them to get "tougher" because of what they went through. By implication, he is also claiming that in his acts of violence and atrocities, he has improved you, even though what he did robbed you of knowing and having your mother around while you were growing up.

Now, if you try to come back and tell me that there is any way in Hell you would ever be able to get past this, forgive this, and form a meaningful relationship with this man, who has never once apologized or admitted wrongdoing to you, your family, your friends, and others, I'm going to have to call you on this and say you're full of it.

Why would you expect the same of someone else?
 
There were atrocities on both sides indeed... never denied that ... but you're missing the point of my debate about how Kira and Dukat being together and in love would be beneficial to both worlds. Love trancends everything and goes far beyond the occupation "atrocities".
 
There were atrocities on both sides indeed... never denied that ... but you're missing the point of my debate about how Kira and Dukat being together and in love would be beneficial to both worlds. Love trancends everything and goes far beyond the occupation "atrocities".

No, it doesn't, nor should it. The only place that happens is in really crappy romance novels, which DS9 was not, thank God.
 
I agree... if it were a romance novel I certainly wouldn't be a fan... but in my hypothetical argument ... cooler heads would prevail and it would make sense for Dukat and Kira to be together for multiple reasons.
 
I agree... if it were a romance novel I certainly wouldn't be a fan... but in my hypothetical argument ... cooler heads would prevail and it would make sense for Dukat and Kira to be together for multiple reasons.

Here's the thing. You haven't given multiple reasons. Every single time your argument boils down to, "ZOMG, guys, it would be so romantic!" :adore: You have ignored every single reasoned argument presented to you as to why it would be a terrible idea, and you haven't addressed a single one of them. You've come up with a rather half-baked premise that, "Well, the Bajorans did bad things, too, so that makes Kira and Dukat even." Except that it doesn't. It doesn't even come close.

Frankly, you're coming across as either very young, very sheltered, very naive, or very callous, possibly a combination of any or all of the above. "Love conquers all" is a romantic notion that looks good on paper (to some) but that does not work in practical principle and has no place in certain situations, such as this one.

Please, at least attempt to address the points several people have raised in a way other than "so romantic", if you're going to keep making this argument. Otherwise, it's impossible to take you seriously on any level.

1.) Dukat showed no remorse for the atrocities he, himself, committed and had committed in his name during the occupation. Worse than that, he remained firm in his belief that what he did was actually good for Bajor.

While, yes, he is a fictional character in a fictional world, there are several real world analogues to Dukat and the atrocities he was responsible for. Not "atrocities" and not so-called atrocitites. Atrocities. Rape. Murder. Slavery, both of the labor and sexual kind. Mass starvation. Torture. Theft of resources. A salted earth policy when they left to cripple the recovery efforts. Occupation of a world that was not theirs and that they had no right to. Fictionally written, yes, but not fictional to Kira or the Bajorans. In the context of the story, these things are absolutely real to these characters.

I get the impression that the fact that this is fiction is what is allowing you to gloss over all of that. (At least I hope that's the case. I would hate to think that you had a smiliar attitude toward WWII Germany, what happened to the Kurds in Iraq, the tribal warfare in Rwanda, or the most recent events in Darfur. The thing is, there are people who do have your attitude toward all of the real world examples of genocide, which is one reason your stubborn insistence about this isn't just coming across as somewhat shallow and naive but as offensive.)

2.) Kira spent her entire life under the boot heel of the occupation. She lost her mother to Dukat. She lost family and friends as a direct result of his policies. She never had enough to eat. Yes, she violently resisted the people who occupied her homeworld, raped her friends, killed her family, and made her life a living hell. You honestly can't see the difference between what she did and what Dukat did? If so, that is disturbing. Very disturbing.

As I said in another post, put yourself in her shoes. Really try. Think of witnessing all of these things as a child, growing up without a mother, being twisted into something you can't accept (coming up very quickly on the third point), being raped, being starved, and then jumping into bed with the one person you see as most responsible for your suffering, the one person all of your friends, family, and country members also see as most responsible. There is no world and there are no circumstances under which that would make even a little sense. Don't forget point one. He feels bad about nothing. He thinks he's right.

3.) Kira has genuine remorse about everything violent she did during the Occupation. She is torn up inside and has a hard time looking in the mirror over it some days. Kira did not invade Cardassia, steal their resources, rape, pillage, and plunder. Kira was trying to prevent that from happening to her people and make the oppressors go away, and she still feels bad about it. Kira is light years from Dukat when it comes to emotional maturity and integrity, and throughout the series she increases that distance in leaps and bounds while Dukat remains stuck in his stubborn insistence that everything bad he did is actually good and that she's just an ungrateful little bitch for not seeing it the way he does.

It is not Kira's responsibility or obligation to improve Dukat's morality by giving in to his twisted desire to have her approve of him. There are millions of women around this world who get into relationships with bad men because of the oh so (supposedly) romantic notion that all a bad man needs is the love of a good woman to "fix" him. About every 15 seconds or so a woman is murdered by the man who supposedly loves her, a man she believed she could fix, a man who is abusive and without remorse. And you want Kira in this type of relationship. Say what?!

4.) Kira is admired and respected by her people as a symbol of the Resistance and of Bajor's moving forward. The same people who admire Kira despise Dukat with completely justified reasons. For Kira to turn around and jump into bed with Dukat and proclaim to Bajor that she loves him would not heal Bajor or any Bajoran who witnessed that. It would open more wounds, cause more pain, and hinder healing, not help it.

Again, try to think of it in real world terms. A terrible serial killer who has terrorized and preyed on a community for decades is finally apprehended and brought to justice. While he's in jail, the sister of the most high profile victim declares her love for him and her intention to marry him. You honestly think other people who lost loved ones to this killer or her own family are going to have the reaction, "Aww, that's so romantic! I guess love really does conquer all, and we should forgive him for what he has done to our loved ones"?

(Don't forget. Our serial killer has expressed no remorse for his heinous crimes of torture, rape, and murder. He has told the community that he feels he improved them, made them stronger. He has told the sister this, too.)

No, realistically, their reaction is going to be disgust, horror, and a sense of deep betrayal at this woman who is basically sending the message that her dead family member and all the other dead family members don't matter, because the serial killer is "hawt" and charismatic. No healing will come of that situation, and frankly, it would make me question the sanity of the sister.

As I said, please at least attempt to address these points rationally. "ZOMG, guys, it's sooooo romantic!" is not a rational response to any of this. It's a non-argument.
 
What? I have to write a novel and throw together a bunch of words for my point to be considered? Not gonna happen. I am like a computer ... straight to the point and accurate.

BTW ... I watched last night. When Dukat gave her a beautiful dress, at first she wall thrilled, full of excitement, and vulnerable to her true feelings for him. This proves she is much more fallible than the strong and hateful leader (against Cardassians) you guys want her to be.
Only when her logic started playing tricks with her did she come to reason that she should still put up the facade of hate toward Dukat. Then she did her little goofy rant against him by giving back the dress. Poor Dukat ... he was just trying to be nice and share his true feelings for her. Kira, Ziyal, and Dukat were being a happy bonded family... looking at her artwork... sharing stories and laughs with each other. Dukat was just trying to grow that loving relationship the three of them had. Unfortunately she failed and let her anger and guilt about her true feelings for Dukat take control. She is confused about her love for the man because Bajor and the Federation tell her she HAS to hate him. Because of her conflicting emotions and sense of "loyalty" to the Federation ... Dukat and Ziyal suffered. For that night anyway ... haha at least Ziyal got a nice dress out of the deal though.
 
^ It isn't Bajor telling her she should hate him. It's her very own conscience. Her heart. And her conscience and heart are right.

You don't have to write a novel, but it would be nice if you Actually. Read. Some. Of. Our. Various. Objections. And. Then. Responded. To. Them.

Just a few of them - the ones that seem most important to you - that's all we're asking. But you haven't. You just keep going back to these scenes that for whatever reason appeal to your imagination - unlike those that demonstrate Dukat is a manipulative bastard and that he is complicit in and a participant in crimes against Bajor, which apparently do not appeal to you. And you ignore everything else.

Which is very odd, since there are far more scenes of the manipulative bastard type then there are the romantic ones that you seem to favor. But to each his own.

Edit: And I still say that the Dukat that several of us - me, Nerys, Cat_in_a_blender, DevilEyes, Enabran/PSGarak, Sovereign one, etc., etc., etc. - saw on DS9 is roughly 1000 times more interesting than the one you're seeing. Probably because he's also 1000 times more realistic. He's not nearly as dreamy and romantic, though, I'll concede.
 
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BTW ... I watched last night. When Dukat gave her a beautiful dress, at first she wall thrilled, full of excitement, and vulnerable to her true feelings for him. This proves she is much more fallible than the strong and hateful leader (against Cardassians) you guys want her to be.
Only when her logic started playing tricks with her did she come to reason that she should still put up the facade of hate toward Dukat.

Huh?!

What I saw was Kira smiling, knowing how happy Ziyal would be to see her, then her brain saying "you do know who that came from, don't you?" Dukat didn't enter into her thinking until that last moment.

And hateful? Heck yeah, against any Cardassian who have wiped out every Bajoran if they had the time and resources. Any idea who might be included in that group?
 
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