The big trial - Anwar against the Evil Niners

[DevilEyes]

I thought that it was high time we stopped clogging the Jake thread with this stuff.

Well, here's the first time I ever really had a posting discussion with Ghoul: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=79156&page=5

And DevilEyes http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=101568&page=8
As for being TOSers (an in-joke for you Brits), you can be one and a Niner. I even said that in a past post.

So, if I understand this correctly, I am one of the accused, and I am supposed to prove my innocence?

OK, if that's what you like. Read it for yourself and see.
I would love to have pointed out where exactly I have bashed Voyager.

Apparently, my "Voyager hate" consisted in 1) defending DS9 against Anwar's bashing, and 2) criticizing Anwar's habit of ATACKING the Niners and REPEATING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER - the fact that his every post was about the so-called "double standard" of Niners - WHICH IS NOT A LOGICAL ARGUMENT in the first place: according to him, if VOY had the same storylines and characters as DS9, Niners would hate those characters and storylines, just because they're on VOY. And how does he know that? Well, I presume he has a crystal ball or something.

The thread he posted the link to was specifically about VOY fans' (i.e. Anwar's) whining about the Niners, and it was called "DS9 Fans: The Bane of Our Very Existence".

While I am not opposed to a thread based around criticising Anwar's irrational insults of "Niners", I believe that in the last thread his positions were already exposed as being... abnormal. Based on the fact that everyone else criticised him based on what he was saying and were trying to point out just how irrational he was being (to varying degrees of politeness), I think that his own arguments do a better job at defeating him than I would be able to do at the present time.

So instead I'm going to link everybody to my favourite moment in TV history. Enjoy!

"Watch this."

Dude, the hatedom just has it out for VOY than any other Trek show. In everything. And yes, if VOY had done a lot of what DS9 did (say, if "Pale Moonlight" was a VOY episode instead of DS9) they'd still get nothing but hate. That's just how it is.

And for your information, there were people who DID agree with me on how Niners have it out for VOY fans.

I think you don't understand how critical Niners can be of their own show.

Dude, I've run into Niners who think the Breen are among Trek's best aliens simply because they attacked Earth and were part of the Dominion War. Which automatically made them superior to every one of VOY's aliens.

Oh, I doubt it. See, those who adore the Dominion War arc are often somewhat cynical regarding "Trek's ideals," and interested in exploring its grey areas - though not it's batshit evil ones as heroes, that's reserved for the fetishized "enemy." I think seeing Voyager form a Delta Federation would have been fascinating, or even the hints that, rather than spending all their time focused on getting home, they'll spread Federation values by becoming living examples in the DQ.

They'd just complain that it was a violation of the PD and Fed values (because if anyone outside of DS9 violated Trek values, it's bad) and that one ship couldn't form an alliance like that. Or they'd complain it was too much like the Federation and not the militaristic hardline Empire they want the Federation to be.

Heck, maybe even an anti-DS9; instead of seeing how the Federation can be corrupted and grey when challenged with an incredibly difficult war, show how it can also be a really positive force to bring people together and make the galaxy a better place. That was the basis of the very very very good novella Places of Exile in the Myriad Universes books. And it also is a really good story (IMO) for tying in the Voth and 8472, some of my favorite VOY aliens as a Niner.

Like I said, if VOY did that they'd only end up criticizing every last formation decision Janeway made, nevermind they'd agree with Sisko's every choice.

<snip>

Then again, seeing how all of them became Moore's lapdogs and BSG worshipers (the same show that outright condemned Trek as not being real people in the least) I don't think they are really Trek fans.

The double standard that VOY gets, and how if any of its aliens or ideas had been in the other shows like TNG or DS9 and everything about them had been the same no one would complain about them the way they complain in VOY.

When most people say that Voyager should have more secondary characters we're not talking about recurring villains,

Oh, yes you are. What's one of the central complaints over VOY's aliens? Too episodic, too many "of the weeks". Then when they DID have recurring villains like Cullah and Seska it was just another negative reaction. It's just double standard wherein VOY gets hated for not doing something and then hated for doing it.

<snip>

I doubt it, like I've told others if VOY had created a Delta Federation early on and the Dominion was THEIR archfoe for most of the series and EVERYTHING was the same as DS9 in terms of writing the whole thing would be considered Trek's worst stories for daring to challenge Fed ideals and the Dominion would be ridiculed as a VOY creation and therefore unworthy of respect.

Meanwhile on DS9 we'd have Sisko defeating the Borg all the time with Runabouts and everyone would love it.

Like I said, Sisko trashing the Borg all on his own with a runabout is okay. Janeway doing it with a starship is a no-no. Why? Because Sisko is from DS9 and the fandom is a-okay with anything DS9 does.

<snip>

People say that what happened in Sacrifice of Angels worked out great with Sisko's own story with the Prophets, so they'd have no problem with him taking out the Borg like nothing. They'd welcome it because it would be a TNG creation being beaten. Picard defeating Dominion soldiers would have had them howling their guts out over the silliness of it all, though. Double Standard and all that.

Like I said, BSG cut costs by being shot in Canada and CGI was cheaper by then to do stuff. So no, it's not the same as if VOY got recurring characters. Guest characters you pay ONCE, recurring you have to pay over and over along with the regulars.

I'm saying that if Sisko had gone off and defeated the Borg with a runabout no one would complain that it ruined the Borg. Double Standard.

And yeah, I showed you have despite it also being a syndicated show DS9's ratings were way lower than TNG's from the near start. That also means loss of revenue.

Vorik came back due to Nepotism, he's Jeri Taylor's son.

I already gave the proof: That DS9's ratings were SO far below what TNG's had been shows it was losing money. Voyager was on a small network not everyone got, and that DS9's rating weren't even THAT much better than VOY even though it was syndicated means that it was losing money.

Why weren't Chakotay and Kim used more? There's only so much than can be done with a plank of wood.

And yes, if Sisko did everything that Janeway did against the Borg no one would've complained. If Janeway had been the half-Prophet Emissary commander of DS9 everyone would've criticized her every decision and "In the Pale Moonlight" would be regarded the same as "Threshold".

 

[DevilEyes]

My first post in the thread:

Vorik came back due to Nepotism, he's Jeri Taylor's son.

I already gave the proof: That DS9's ratings were SO far below what TNG's had been shows it was losing money. Voyager was on a small network not everyone got, and that DS9's rating weren't even THAT much better than VOY even though it was syndicated means that it was losing money.

Why weren't Chakotay and Kim used more? There's only so much than can be done with a plank of wood.

And yes, if Sisko did everything that Janeway did against the Borg no one would've complained. If Janeway had been the half-Prophet Emissary commander of DS9 everyone would've criticized her every decision and "In the Pale Moonlight" would be regarded the same as "Threshold".

Sorry to barge in into this fascinating discussion that I really don't have the patience of reading all the way through, but Anwar, I really must ask, do you have any arguments based on reality, or does your every "argument" of yours consist of a hypothetical situation you made up?

You are certainly fond of logical fallacies... I hope that you won't, at least, start bringing up circular arguments again, as on the TNG vs DS9 thread...
(for those who have missed it - paraphrased:
Anwar: "DS9 is utterly gloomy and hopeless"
Others: "Prove it"
Anwar: "Nothing good is ever going to happen to any of the characters, Cardassia will never recover, Romulus will start a war with the Federation, the future of every race will suck, there is no hope for anyone..."
Others: "And how do you know that?!"
Anwar: "Because it's DS9, and DS9 is gloomy and hopeless" )

*

(^ Hating Anwar's non-arguments apparently makes you a "Voyager hater" )

I really tried to like DS9. I watched quite a bit of it. Ultimately, I found the characters uninteresting or downright repellent. I will certainly concede that DS9 was more "consistent" than VOY, and had better plotted seasons overall. But that doesnt make it a better show, though in my experience Niners use those good qualities as irrefutable evidence that it does. VOY moves me and engrosses me to this day because I simply love the characters and the actors. And I will passionately make a case for the sheer brilliance of many, many of its episodes.

No other Trek show has ever come closer to capturing the spirit of my beloved TOS than VOY has, which is why they are the Trek shows I love most. Both of them have heart, somehow, in a way the other series simply dont, imo.

To each their own. I loved almost every major character and actor on DS9 - with some it was love at first sight (Kira, Garak, Odo...) but even those I did not appreciate at first grew on me or developed wonderfully in later seasons (Jadzia, Bashir). I was attached to all those characters, main and recurring ones, whether I love them, hated them, or both at the same time. On Voyager, I am only mildly interested in watching the episodes, because the characters are mostly 'meh'. Neelix is annoying, I somewhat like Tuvok and the Doctor, but most of them are neither here nor there. And I don't love any of them.

^ You're not allowed to say that you like DS9 more than VOY, this makes you a VOY HATER!

Character development? Bare bones in most cases of the secondary chars, and that's just because they were so 1-D to begin with the minimal development would have the illusion of "fleshing them out".

You are talking of Voyager characters, right?

You complain about character inconsistency, yet DS9 did that just as much or just had contrived tack-ons for the hell of it like Bashir's augmentation

Contrived or not, it made him more complex (up to that point, he had been the least developed character on DS9... which meant that he was still better developed than most characters on VOY, but nevermind...) and gave him a storyline with the Jack Pack (which I liked), as well as brought up an interesting social issue of genetic augmentation and its status in the Federation. So I don' see how it was "just for the hell of it".

Odo and Kira just bushing around for 7 years

Bushing around? What does that even mean? Does it mean that you think it was obvious from day one they would get together, and they just stalled it for no reason? As far as I, and many other people, were concerned, it was not obvious at all. Kira and Odo were hardly Riker and Troi, or even Picard and Crusher. There were no romantic implications visible onscreen at all in the beginning (and offscreen, it was not even planned by the writers, until Auberjonois started playing it this way). And for more than 5 seasons, it was no obvious at all if Kira would return his feelings. Heck, I got spoiled on it halfway through the show, and it still didn't look obvious onscreen. (Neither was it certain that it would turn out that way, from what I've heard.)

Sisko's "romance",

What's wrong with it? And why the quotation marks?

^ Don't ever DARE defend DS9 against Anwar's bashing! That makes you a HATER!

I was talking about the DS9 ones, actually.

What happened with Bashir is just double standard again. If it had been, say, Kim who turned out to be an augment and they did stories like that on VOY no one would've liked it.

I could tell what was happening with Odo and Kira after a while in the 1st season, it just annoyed me that they wasted time on it for 7 years. The only surprise was that he went back to the Link and even that wasn't too surprising.

Sisko and Kasidy, just boring and bland. So much that they gave her a Maquis contrived connection and dropped it just as fast.

What happened with Bashir is just double standard again. If it had been, say, Kim who turned out to be an augment and they did stories like that on VOY no one would've liked it.

Oh, here we go again. How would you know that?!?!?! You have a crystal ball or something? Otherwise, it is really strange that you still haven't learned that "if this and this happened on Voyager, people would..." DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN ARGUMENT? It is not logical. It has no place in a discussion in which you are trying to prove a point. It means absolutely nothing. Get it?

I could tell what was happening with Odo and Kira after a while in the 1st season, it just annoyed me that they wasted time on it for 7 years.

Well, more power to you. You are so perceptive that you figured it out before even the writers had any idea about it. Awesome.

Not to mention how amazingly exciting it would have been to watch 7 seasons of Odo the happy, content shapeshifter and a relaxed Kira as a resident happy couple. I can see it... Trek's Dharma and Greg? Maybe they could have adopted a few orphans and made it into a big happy family? How I would have loved to watch that...

Oh, here we go again. How would you know that?!?!?! You have a crystal ball or something? Otherwise, it is really strange that you still haven't learned that "if this and this happened on Voyager, people would..." DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN ARGUMENT? It is not logical. It has no place in a discussion in which you are trying to prove a point. It means absolutely nothing. Get it?

I don't know, he's given us 8 pages of discussion/ argument so far.

More power to ya, Anwar.

Yes, 8 pages of repeating the same illogical non-argument is better than posting it once and learning better... sure, whatever.

Yes, 8 pages of repeating the same illogical non-argument is better than posting it once and learning better... sure, whatever.

The site is meant for discussion & debate and he's provided just that. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, he's still provided something to discuss.

Um, it's not a matter of me agreeing with him or not. It's a matter of him using ILLOGICAL arguments... or should I say, non-arguments. I could just as well start posting things like "If Picard or Janeway did X (insert something that Sisko did and they did not and that Anwar criticized him for) you, Anwar, would be praising them for it" or "if Y happened on DS9 (insert something that never happened on DS9, but did on Voyager) you haters would complaing about it all day long, but since it happened on Voyager, you loved it" - and I could go on like that for 8 pages. We all could. But we don't, because it doesn't make any sense. It can't be proven, it is not a proper argument, and therefore does not constitute a good discussion. Is that so hard to understand?

Um, it's not a matter of me agreeing with him or not. It's a matter of him using ILLOGICAL arguments... or should I say, non-arguments. I could just as well start posting things like "If Picard or Janeway did X (insert something that Sisko did and they did not and that Anwar criticized him for) you, Anwar, would be praising them for it" or "if Y happened on DS9 (insert something that never happened on DS9, but did on Voyager) you haters would complaing about it all day long, but since it happened on Voyager, you loved it" - and I could go on like that for 8 pages. We all could. But we don't, because it doesn't make any sense. It can't be proven, it is not a proper argument, and therefore does not constitute a good discussion. Is that so hard to understand?

Give me a freakin' break, it's Star Trek. No debate here, logical or illogical means a hill of beans. This place is supposed to be for entertainment.

Ah, OK then...

Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow.
Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD.

I'm pointing out the double standard Niners have towards their own show compared to the other Modern Trek series. You're explosiveness is just further proof of volatile and defensive Niners get when anyone dares to point out this out and that DS9 was less than perfect.

I'm pointing out the double standard Niners have towards their own show compared to the other Modern Trek series.

*sigh* Read carefully: you're not pointing it out, because you haven't actually pointed out anything that really exists. "My crystal ball tells me that if X happened, then you would say Y..." is not "pointing out" anything, it's just a speculation, based on nothing. Or at least nothing that you've been able to articulate in your posts.

You're explosiveness is just further proof of volatile and defensive Niners get when anyone dares to point out this out and that DS9 was less than perfect.

I am explosiveness? Thank you... whatever that means.

Oh Anwar, Anwar...I couldn't be defensive even if I tried, when there is nothing to defend from. Perhaps there would been, if you were able to actually form a coherent argument that satisfies the basic requirement of logic. Sorry if I frightened you with what you call "volatility", but I was just becoming a little impatient with your insistence on repeatedly displaying the same illogical mode of thinking, even after people have told you several times what exactly you are doing wrong.

But now that I've been enlightened by our friend exodus and realized that this is actually not a serious discussion... I'm perfectly OK with it. I will stop making sense. Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow! Angry green ideas sleep furiously! See? How am I doing?

*sigh* Read carefully: you're not pointing it out, because you haven't actually pointed out anything that really exists. "My crystal ball tells me that if X happened, then you would say Y..." is not "pointing out" anything, it's just a speculation, based on nothing. Or at least nothing that you've been able to articulate in your posts.

VOY haters/Niners wanted recurring villains, yet when VOY did that all they got for it was criticisms over how dumb it was to run into the same villains more than once. Double standard.

Niners/Voy haters say that VOY should've focused more on their original villains rather than overusing the TNG ones like the Borg. Yet every single VOY race, even the cool ones like 8472 or the Vidiians, were despised and had to be desposed of. Double Standard.

VOY haters/Niners complain that lots and lots of people should have died on VOY. Yet in DS9 the only main cast member to die was killed off due to a contract dispute and not because they wanted to show how bad war was. In fact they'd have been angered and offended if any of the DS9 main cast died due to plot reasons. Double Standard.

From these examples it's crystal clear that there's nothing VOY could've done to appease the Niners/Haters, and that they'd just hate everything they did.

Of course, had any of VOY's aliens been DS9 aliens (like the Vidiians been survivors of a plague unleashed by the Dominion) no one would be complaining. Why? Because Niners can't accept anything bad about their own show and like it all.

I am explosiveness? Thank you... whatever that means.

It means you freak out whenever someone points out that Niners aren't Saints.

Oh Anwar, Anwar...I couldn't be defensive even if I tried, when there is nothing to defend from. Perhaps there would been, if you were able to actually form a coherent argument that satisfies the basic requirement of logic.

Not my fault if you can't accept you're a prejudiced hater with endless double standards.

Sorry if I frightened you with what you call "volatility", but I was just becoming a little impatient with your insistence on repeatedly displaying the same illogical mode of thinking, even after people have told you several times what exactly you are doing wrong.

All you say is "no, you're wrong" without backing yourself up.

This is where I realized that talking to him directly gets you nowhere, since he is not capable of a logical discussion.




* more about this later

 

[DevilEyes]

But is it discussion if he just keeps saying the same thing over and over? Later on in this post, I could very easily cut and paste something from upthread.
First, please stop with this, because the two are not the same. You've had several people in this thread who have come in, declared themselves Niners, and said "VOY's not for me, but it's cool if you like it." I am one of them. You've had one Niner come in here with a "hateful" attitude towards VOY. I am a Niner. I am not a VOY hater.
Your'e wrong. I really liked revisiting the Hirogen and 8472. I liked the concept of the Kazon, even if I feel the execution could have been better. I really wish we had revisited the Voth, and one of my favorite things is how Year of Hell followed up on Before and After.

You're wrong. As a Niner, 8472 are one of my favorite adversarial Star Trek aliens, and their appearance at the beginning of Scorpion made me go . You know you've got a good villain when the Borg seem less threatening. The Vidiians were eh, for me, but I appreciate how much others like them. I think the Voth were a really awesome villain and wish they'd shown up more than just once. The Hirogen were solid, if not terribly original, and their appearance in TrekLit's Destiny series was fantastic. Just to name a few.

You're wrong. As a Niner, rampant death would have been a poor idea, even if the loss of one or two major/recurring characters could have been well done.

You're wrong. As a Niner, I would not have been angered or offended if one of the DS9 main cast (or more secondary characters) died due to plot reasons. Besides, some of the characters killed during the war were more popular than some of the main cast.

Of course, had any of VOY's aliens been DS9 aliens (like the Vidiians been survivors of a plague unleashed by the Dominion) no one would be complaining. Why? Because Niners can't accept anything bad about their own show and like it all.

You're most definitely wrong here. Otherwise there wouldn't be the endless bitching about boring Jadzia, stupid Pah-Wraiths, annoying Bajorans, pointless Klingon war plot, creepy Odo/Kira romance... etc...

I'm one of those that bitch about the stupid Pah-wraiths all the time. Substract the other items from your list (Bajorans, Klingon war, Jadzia, Odo/Kira) and add the stupid "Sisko's mom possessed by a Prophet" plot, annoying Ferengi episodes, boring Kira/Shakaar pairing, pointless standalones, Klingon episodes that are not tied to the main plot, and the entire episode "Fascination", and you have my list (although I could have forgotten something).

I can buy that the Voth, Hirogen, and a few other races could plausibly appear on VOY across multiple episodes or seasons. They have the warp technology and/or territory size to make it plausible. Alternately, if there was a throwaway line about how some other villain with appeal but poorer warp drive fell through a wormhole, I would have welcomed that as well.

The problem with the Kazon is more that they are uninteresting space bullies. If the Wadi (the "Allamaraine" game-players) had made multiple appearances on DS9, I would be griping about that. For a double standard to exist, there needs to be an apples-to-apples comparison in which one side gets a pass for the exact same thing for which the other side is getting zinged. I don't see how one exists in this case.

Give him credit, he was repetitive as always, but at least this time he managed to write an entire post without an "if" sentence in it. I expected him to post something like "If Neelix were on DS9, Niners would consider him the greatest character in Trek" or some similar assumption, but he abstained this time. That's already an improvement.

He went on with his "what if - double standard" obsession:

The fans hated the Vidiians because they were "Space Lepers", they looked too ugly and their concept was too disgusting (in other words, they had weak stomachs) so the writers had to get rid of them.

With 8472, they hated them for being able to fight the Borg and win. If they had been a TNG or DS9 creation no one would complain, but for VOY to have made an alien race that can fight the Borg was a cardinal sin.

Those statements about the VOY aliens make a lot more sense (given the VOY hatred that permeates the fandom) than ANY other opinions about those aliens we've ever seen on these forums. I've been here for years and I've never seen anyone compliment a single alien VOY race as anything other than a total failure. The fandom's consensus is clear when it comes to VOY's aliens: they were all terrible without any redeeming or interesting qualities.

Meanwhile, 1-D bozos like the Breen in DS9 are hailed as excellent aliens with oodles of character when they were just crap.

Double.Standard.

Get this through your head, Its not always the aliens that suck its how they are used.

And I'm saying that given the hatred that permeates the fandom that it never mattered how the aliens were used nothing would have been good enough for the haters.

You honestly expect us to believe that there are fans that hate the Viidians because they are UGLY? I mean, have you seen the borg? I'm calling BS on this.

The Borg aren't that ugly, they aren't patchwork creations like the Vidiians.


That's partially the point of this argument: That the haters are SO biased that if you take something despised out of the despised series and put it into a well-liked one (which changing NOTHING about the specific thing) the haters suddenly become lovers. That writing doesn't matter, it's just what show you're on. Inequality enforced by favoritism.

Like I said, it all depends on what show you're on. That ensures the result, not the presentation or writing.

No, and they'd be despised for being a B&B creation and thus unworthy of existence. Even if the writing was on par with "The Jem'Hadar".

And when VOY tried to do the same with its' villains all they got was hash criticisms and the innate stupidity of recurring villains.

Conversely, transplant the Vidians to the Gamma Quadrant, and focus on their plight as a civilization, examine how it collapsed, the impact that its had on the GQ, play up their desperation and do that over several years, and the Vidiians become one of the great races in Star Trek.

Mostly due to being on DS9 and not VOY. That whole paragraph of yours is a two-parter in DS9 after which they are rarely heard from again and the Vidiians ARE one of Trek's best. Because it's DS9.

You need to stop with this absurd notion that people seem to have a genetic predisposition to dislike Voyager. People usually have valid reasons for disliking something.

Not in this case. As a witness who was there from the start, I can honestly say that there was a predisposition against VOY from the first episode onwards (and even before that). I never understood it myself.

It would be good continuity and character development, but the haters would still think it would be dumb to see the Vidiians again and say that Janeway just wasn't tough enough to handle crew death.

^ Is there any way to stop Anwar from using a Conditional Sentence Type II in any of this posts, ever again? There is obviously no hope that he'll ever realize that they don't make a legitimate argument and that, to have an argument, he needs to respond to what people actually say, rather than what he thinks they would say in a hypothetical situation. (A Minority Report-debate?) I think what needs to be done is A Clockwork Orange-type behaviorist therapy that would result in him being physically unable to write the word "would" any time he tried to.

I'd be more interested in stopping him from willfully ignoring things that prove him wrong and blithely continuing to say the same things that were proven wrong less than 10 posts previously.

Yeah, that's what I'd like to see. We know what cured Vidiians look like from seeing the holo-representation of Danara Pel, but what happens after they get cured and how does the "cost" affect them?

TheGodBen, prep the duct tape!

Eh, the haters would complain that we shouldn't have been seeing or hearing from the Vidiians that much later in the series to begin with.

 

[DevilEyes]

And this is the earlier TNG vs DS9 thread I was talking about:
http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=96749&page=8

It's because of this "Dark is good" fad that's going on where it's impossible to enjoy anything wherein hard work pays off and people can live in peace. For a show to be good now there have to be crushing defeats and characters who all have some horrible horrible act of evil in their pasts or somesuch nonsense. DS9 had some of this which automatically makes it superior to everything else, of course the fanboys will label this as "good character development".

It's because of this "Dark is good" fad that's going on where it's impossible to enjoy anything wherein hard work pays off and people can live in peace. For a show to be good now there have to be crushing defeats and characters who all have some horrible horrible act of evil in their pasts or somesuch nonsense. DS9 had some of this which automatically makes it superior to everything else, of course the fanboys will label this as "good character development".

And yet the major payoff from the years of gloom and doom and war is that the three largest TOS/TNG rivals achieved unheard of cooperation amongst themselves, an oppressed nation fought back its usurpers, and a persecuted minority found religious satisfaction. Among the main characters, the most blue-collar of the staff became a professor, the exile became the savior, and the freedom fighter became the station's leader, among other developments that came full circle. If that's not peace as a result of (extremely) hard work, I don't know what is.

But no, I take my generalizations with a lot of sweep.

^ and thank god for that - the last thing I'd want to see a sugary-coated happy ending in which everyone lives happily ever after, their home planets all live in *PEACE* and everything is wonderful... yeah, right, that's very likely to happen after war and genocide and everything that's happened previously. It would've made me throw up.

Look, I don't know why we're still having this discussion? You've already made it clear that you only like shows in which everything is black and white, all the heroes are morally unblemished, there is no moral ambiguity, the good guys triumph without ever getting their hands dirty, and everyone lives happily ever after. Fair enough, to each their own, but do you really think you'll manage to convince anyone here to change their minds and decide that these are the qualities that make a superior fictional story?

So basically you're agreeing that it's impossible to tell a good story wherein a person can be satisfied and happy after putting in hard work and not giving up despite the odds? Thought so. Grimdark is the new medium where anyone who doesn't compromise their morals must be shot dead having accomplished nothing while the corrupt get to live out their dreams in luxury not suffering the least for their actions. That's the only kind of "superior" fictional story that can be accepted anymore.

Yes it is possible to live peacefully and endure in the aftermath of a brutal war and not end up some burnt out worthless piece of flesh who can only angst about how horrible life is.

So basically you're agreeing that it's impossible to tell a good story wherein a person can be satisfied and happy after putting in hard work and not giving up despite the odds?

Actually, what I'm saying that real people have set-backs in their lives and most of the time things don't go exactly according to plan and we have to make compromises. I prefer to see tales told with those kinds of characters and that is just as valid an opinion as your seeming preference for fantastical heroes.

And yet the major payoff from the years of gloom and doom and war is that the three largest TOS/TNG rivals achieved unheard of cooperation amongst themselves,

And it's implied that things will eventually go back to their old antagonistic ways between the Feds and the Romulans while the Dominion will always just be waiting in the GQ.

Who implied that about the Feds and the Romulans? Let's remember the events of Nemesis and the spirit of cooperation there. Meanwhile, during the treaty signing, the female changeling didn't sneak back into the wormhole with a Dr. Claw-esque "I'll get you next time!" threat.

(That and I think you're seriously underestimating Odo's drive, determination, and nature in being an agent of positive change for the Dominion now).

"Still" an utterly trashed place? The last time we saw Cardassia on screen, it was right after the war. Were you expecting the miracle of replicated buildings and a spiffy new Cardassia? Just what were your expectations here?

What about the long-term? Let's look at post-war Italy and Germany. In many ways just as bad if not worse than Cardassia, and yet now they're not only allies of the US and UK but they're considered upper tier powers as well. Frankly, that's a very positive turn for those two nations considering the strife of the 40s. They built themselves back up in a spirit of friendship and peace. It was a process that took decades, but it all started right after the war, too, and starting is often the hardest part of the job.

Proof? I don't recall that ever being said, unless you're just making things up now. He had a bittersweet goodbye, proud of his new position but sad that he had to leave (flashback montage, anyone?). He didn't leave in a huff, cursing at Sisko and Co. while storming into a runabout.

I was talking about Odo and how he pledged to make the Founders more peaceful, an opening that hadn't been there before. But if you want to bring back Garak, he's also gone from selfish, arrogant spy to political leader and hero. In other words, the complete opposite of the shady person he was at the start. That's a negative?

That's the thing about Garak and Odo: you don't engage in that type of reconstruction/rebuilding efforts (especially planetary!) if you despair that it would all be for nothing, otherwise you're just wasting your time. Rather, you engage in that work if you believe in the greater good and are certain that you can help things get better. That is a major motivator in today's activist and goodwill efforts. A bad today can lead to a wonderful tomorrow. How much more hopeful can that message get?

Kira is left with all of her love interests all gone,

And is now helping to usher her planet into a new era of political influence and religious enlightenment, all with a smile on her face and eager to tackle the future. Are we going to tear down Admiral Janeway for losing the love of her life to distance, flirting with her first officer (a former enemy!), and having a romance in Fair Haven, despite getting her crew home?

and the rest of the crew essentially all say "Heck, this place is full of bad war memories let's get out of here".

They didn't say that, though. They said it was time to move on, just like *gasp* Riker & Troi with the Titan, or Sulu on the Excelsior. Dax and Bashir were still onboard, as were people like Jake (the person most likely to leave due to bad memories, decides to stay instead). Nog was promoted and the station is still under Starfleet's jurisdiction.

On top of all that, it's pretty telling that our heroes won largely by sticking to their Federation ideals. When Ross, Sisko, and Martok land on Cardassia, only Martok celebrates the victory. Ross and Sisko refuse to drink to the success of the war. After all that violence and all the death, they refuse to breathe that sigh of relief; Starfleet officers never revel or glorify war.

I don't get where all this nit-picking and selective-memory hate is coming from. Despite all the mayhem one of the major themes of the show was that our heroes never truly gave up hope, and they did indeed win in the end. No one can deny that.

Worf himself is an exile who helped his Klingon persecutors time and again in TNG. Kirk's lost almost all his love interests over the years, many of whom he lost to death and destruction. This kind of drama is hardly exclusive to "darkmedium." You had Richard Kimball despair over his lost wife every week in the Fugitive. The cast of MASH used humor to hide their obvious and unending pain, one going insane in the process and the rest realizing that their work only delayed the inevitable. Maude strongly debated herself when she chose to get an abortion in the 70s. None of these shows were dark (two of them are comedies!), but each of these shows are held among the classics for its portrayal of human struggle and that not everybody wins.

Who implied that about the Feds and the Romulans?

Sloan and Section 31.

Let's remember the events of Nemesis and the spirit of cooperation there.

Yes, but that was a TNG movie and thus it was more optimistic and not in the vein of DS9.



The Dominion's been doing their thing for thousands of years, one guy saying "Wait a minute" isn't going to change anything. He can work as hard as he wants, but his hard work won't pay off. And the Female Changling (before the Treaty and the cure) pretty much was going on about how in the end the Dominion would triumph anyways. I doubt them being cured would change that attitude since they were all dying from a virus introduced to them even before the war started.



I was referring to Bajor actually, not Cardassia.



Cardassia suffer massive genocide and the all but total annihilation of their industrial base and infrastructure, and even if it is rebuilt odds are the rebuilt planet will just be a pacified puppet state for the other powers and never allowed to be it's own place anymore.



All the "O'Brien must suffer" episodes would leave a bad mark on anyone, and considering that it's no wonder he accepted the offer and left no matter what good memories there were.



He secretly hoped that one day through his efforts he'd be able to go back to Cardassia. He works hard to do so, ultimately becoming a different man than he was, only when he gets there it's a ruin and odds are it'll never be the place he loved so much to begin with anymore.



They ARE wasting their time, they just don't realize it and don't understand the odds or greater circumstances they're going against. That's not hopeful, it's delusional.

Like I said, at the end Bajor was still a messed up place full of factions willing to duke it out (which Kira was able to forget about or ignore since she was off in space) and they ended up losing the two biggest hopes they had for unity (Kai Opaka and Sisko the Emissary).

They didn't say that, though. They said it was time to move on, just like *gasp* Riker & Troi with the Titan, or Sulu on the Excelsior. Dax and Bashir were still onboard, as were people like Jake (the person most likely to leave due to bad memories, decides to stay instead). Nog was promoted and the station is still under Starfleet's jurisdiction.

On top of all that, it's pretty telling that our heroes won largely by sticking to their Federation ideals. When Ross, Sisko, and Martok land on Cardassia, only Martok celebrates the victory. Ross and Sisko refuse to drink to the success of the war. After all that violence and all the death, they refuse to breathe that sigh of relief; Starfleet officers never revel or glorify war.

Thing is, they didn't. Sisko destroyed the Federations' ideals and "The Dream" all on his own in "Pale Moonlight" despite his hypocrisy over it in later episodes. And peace was only achieved because a renegade faction introduced a killer virus into the Great Link and the cure was used as a bargaining chip. It wasn't ideals that won out at all.

I don't get where all this nit-picking and selective-memory hate is coming from. Despite all the mayhem one of the major themes of the show was that our heroes never truly gave up hope, and they did indeed win in the end. No one can deny that.

Oh they won, but it wasn't because of hope. That's not for DS9.

^ Anwar, that post shows you as an example of negative thinking, choosing always to see the worst in any situation or person, and absolutely refusing to see hope for the future.

Which is very ironic, since that kind of thinking is allegedly what you keep criticizing.

<snip>

As for "thinking too negatively" I'm just extrapolating from the kind of characters and universe DS9 gave us for the logical conclusion. Not my fault if what I was extrapolating from for the conclusion wasn't very nice or hopeful to begin with. Matter of circumstances.

As for "thinking too negatively" I'm just extrapolating from the kind of characters and universe DS9 gave us for the logical conclusion. Not my fault if what I was extrapolating from for the conclusion wasn't very nice or hopeful to begin with. Matter of circumstances.

And you don't find it strange that other people - who happen to, you know, like DS9 - did not see your conclusion as the only "logical conclusion"?

So, I guess either
1) you are the only one who knows THE TRUTH, and everyone else is deluded, but you are going to open our eyes! We didn't know we loved a show that promoted lack of hope, but you are going to make us SEE!
or
2) you are just being deliberately negative and choosing to interpret things in the darkest possible way, while ignoring everything that contradicts your bleak view.

Take a pick... which one seems more likely?

If you believe in 1), well, I see a logical problem with that. You're trying to convince us that we're oh so "deluded" that we saw hope where you only see negativity. But see, we're talking about FICTION, you know, and not real life, so we don't know for sure what would happen in their future, and the only "truth" is what we get from the show.
Am I wrong or not that you think Star Trek should convey "messages" to viewers?
Which begs the question... If we were messages of hope and positivity in a fictional work in which you don't see any, and you have a problem with that are are trying so hard to convince us that the message is only negative... what are you trying to do here, exactly?

As for "thinking too negatively" I'm just extrapolating from the kind of characters and universe DS9 gave us for the logical conclusion. Not my fault if what I was extrapolating from for the conclusion wasn't very nice or hopeful to begin with. Matter of circumstances.

The trouble is, you extrapolated and blew up only the negative side of it completely ignoring everything else because in your mind the premise for DS9 is "It's all Dark and Dangerous and No good can come of it".

I think the premise is more close to "It's not all hunky dory....it's real and believable, at times with great promise and hope, at times full of despair, and yet with a positive future."

I'd say Behr's premise was "Everything will as lousy in the future as it is today, humanity is essentially never going to grow past what it is now and nothing the characters do or say to the contrary will ever change that so deal with it." in how he basically took anything good and idealistic from TNG and smashed it to little bits.

Which begs the question... If we were messages of hope and positivity in a fictional work in which you don't see any, and you have a problem with that are are trying so hard to convince us that the message is only negative... what are you trying to do here, exactly?

Take all this "hopeful" stuff you see in DS9 and show it for what it really is.

"The problem with society is everyone else.

I sincerely hope the sheer narcissism and potential delusion of that statement isn't lost on you. But don't worry, I'll be there to tie the pretty bow on your straitjacket .

 

[DevilEyes]

.. continued:

Who implied that about the Feds and the Romulans?

Sloan and Section 31.



Yes, but that was a TNG movie and thus it was more optimistic and not in the vein of DS9.



The Dominion's been doing their thing for thousands of years, one guy saying "Wait a minute" isn't going to change anything. He can work as hard as he wants, but his hard work won't pay off. And the Female Changling (before the Treaty and the cure) pretty much was going on about how in the end the Dominion would triumph anyways. I doubt them being cured would change that attitude since they were all dying from a virus introduced to them even before the war started.

Yes, and their planet is still an utterly trashed place full of death and persecution and angry folks whose real satisfaction came not from peaceful coexistence but from their oppressors suffering nearly and equal genocide and devastation. Violence and strife was simply rewarded with an equal amount for the others instead any sort of peaceful future.

I was referring to Bajor actually, not Cardassia.



Cardassia suffer massive genocide and the all but total annihilation of their industrial base and infrastructure, and even if it is rebuilt odds are the rebuilt planet will just be a pacified puppet state for the other powers and never allowed to be it's own place anymore.



All the "O'Brien must suffer" episodes would leave a bad mark on anyone, and considering that it's no wonder he accepted the offer and left no matter what good memories there were.



He secretly hoped that one day through his efforts he'd be able to go back to Cardassia. He works hard to do so, ultimately becoming a different man than he was, only when he gets there it's a ruin and odds are it'll never be the place he loved so much to begin with anymore.



They ARE wasting their time, they just don't realize it and don't understand the odds or greater circumstances they're going against. That's not hopeful, it's delusional.

Here are the most glaring example of Anwar's extreme negativity, cynicism and nihilism, which makes him a huge HYPOCRITE.

1) He subscribes to the views of LUTHER SLOAN of SECTION 31 of all people (!!!), and insists that Luther Sloan's view and Section 31's predictions for the future must be true!

2) He completely denigrates Odo's noble efforts and hope he has to make his people understand others and change their xenophobic views, showing them the love and friendship he felt in relationships with solids. Even though there is NOTHING in the show itself to suggest that Odo's efforts will be in vain - on the contrary, DS9 finale ends on a note of hope - Anwar is just too eager to shoot it down. And based on what? On the argument "They have been like that for thousands of years, they are never going to change". No comment necessary.

3) Furthermore, Anwar takes a character who is a known racist and genocidal mass murderer (the Female Changeling), as representative of an entire race, while ignoring and disparaging (as naive and idealistic?) the opinion of a character who believes he can change his people for the better (Odo).

So, for Anwar, the characters in DS9 whose opinions and predictions abotu the future are worthwhile are Luther Sloan and the Female Changeling. Brilliant. Is Anwar seriously suggesting that a show's message is likely to be conveyed through opinions of two supporting villainous characters who are both genocidal criminals, rather than through opinions of the show's main characters, and far more sympathetic characters, such as Odo?

4) He suggests that Bajorans felt satisfaction from Cardassians suffering genocide and destruction! This is completely Anwar's interpretation, as the show didn't show any Bajorans gloating over the fate of Cardassia or saying "Serves them right" or whatever. Anwar is the one arguing that the majority of people are likely to feel that way. So, either he thinks that Bajorans are in majority vengeful and racist (I would like to see arguments for that one), or that most people in real life generally are vengeful and racist, or that Cardassians "deserve what they get" as some kind of "poetic justice", which in itself would be an incredibly ugly and racist statement.

Less cynical people, like myself, saw what happened to Cardassia not as some kind of "poetic justice" or cosmic punishment, but as an example that the historical roles change all the time and every state, race and group of people can be oppressor or a victim, depending on the circumstances. Just like the Changelings were the oppressed for so long, then turned into the biggest of oppressors, before nearly perishing as victims of genocide.

We didn't really see many Bajorans express what they feel about the Cardassian fate, but the one we did see, Kira, didn't show any satisfaction or pleasure in seeing the devastation and deaths of Cardassians. She did have a moment when she couldn't help reminding Damar of the parallel with what Cardassians had done on Bajor, but it was not presented as a moment of gloating, but rather as a case of asking "Do you understand now?" (and for which she immediately felt bad), and most importantly, this was presented as a moment when a Cardassian military officer like Damar starts to understand for the first time the mistakes of the past and the wrongness of what Cardassians had done on Bajor. The show emphasizes the difference between the people who can't understand the mistakes of the past or decide to let go of old prejudice (Rusot), and those who can (Damar, Garak), which allows them to become heroes and build a new Cardassia.

After the end of war, the show let Martok voice the callous sentiment "Who cares about the dead, they are Cardies" which, realistically, would be some people's reaction, but it is doubtful that it would be the reaction of the majority, and certainly not of everyone who has historically been an enemy terms with Cardassia: and the show has its main character, Federation Captain Sisko, and a Federation Admiral, voice the humane reaction of sorrow over the deaths of millions.

5) As for O'Brien - to argue that he left DS9 because he hated being "tortured" is just ridiculous. None of the torture and unhappiness he suffered had anything to do with people of DS9, they were all caused by outside forces, and he had no reason to feel any resentment towards the station itself, where he also had many more happy moments. There is nothing in the show itself to suggest that O'Brien resented or hated the station or his friends - that is another thing that Anwar is choosing to read into the story.

There is a huge difference between realism and nihilism. But apparently, for some people like Anwar there are just two possibilities: fairytales where everything is 100% happy, sweet and hunky dory and everyone is perfect, and a more realistic world which they tend to see through dark-coloured glasses. The nihilistic and cynical messages are not messages that DS9 is trying to send, these are so obviously messages that Anwar wants to see and the ones that he wants to impose on everyone else, and to do so, he has to use the most cynical and nihilistic arguments. The level of hypocrisy is really astounding.

Here are the most glaring example of Anwar's extreme negativity, cynicism and nihilism, which makes him a huge HYPOCRITE.

I'm reflecting what DS9 presented. If a show had good hopefulness that outweighed the bad in a logical fashion then there wouldn't be any negativity, cynicism or nihilism.

1) He subscribes to the views of LUTHER SLOAN of SECTION 31 of all people (!!!), and insists that Luther Sloan's view and Section 31's predictions for the future must be true!

Given that it's DS9, it's only natural that the writers would've had him and Sec 31 be the ones speaking the most probable truth.



The Dominion's own history and experiences (several millenia of hatred and persecution) without a single one changling being able to change their minds or reconsider and we're supposed to believe that just because one guy who had good experience with some people in his life (but plenty of bad ones too, most of which we didn't see) will be able to make some massive turnaround? Especially after the most peaceful group of Solids in Trek nearly annihilated all of them with a plague they used Odo as a carrier for? It's not my fault if the writers set up such a hopeless scenario in the first place.



See above.



Given that it's DS9, yes. It's sad but that's the way the writers presented the whole thing.



Not racist, but vengeful on the Cardassians sure. And seeing how many Bajorans despise the Cardassians throughout the show and how they were on about how the Cardies ravaged their world and their people, etc them enjoying the Cardassians' destruction would be the logical reaction. You think they all held pity parties for every Cardie they came across and has a "Feel bad for Cardassia" day? That's not how the show set them up.



They even used Garak at the end to openly state that the Cardassians had it coming for their actions throughout history, the writers basically used him in that moment to personify their own views and justifications for it (I disagreed and felt this was a very bad thing, but this is what the show said). You're just trying to soften/ignore what they were doing.



Most of Kira's more "Bajoran" views and the like were dismissed after the first season or so and she was Sisko's right hand woman, plus she likved on DS9 for a long time instead of on the planet which was still full of fresh wounds meaning she wouldn't have reacted to what happened to Cardassia the same way someone who was living on Bajor in the middle of a still-ravaged region would have. Take the common oppressed Bajoran, show them what happened and they'd rub it in Damar's face. The reason the show didn't show us other Bajorans would likely for this reason and there was only so much they could get away with. Then at the end we have Garak at the ruins of Cardassia stating that his home is truly gone and no amount of rebuilding will ever bring it back, that's not a hopeful statement about a "Better Cardassia".



And the scene ends with Martok just standing there with a "what's with those two pricks?" look on his face while he chugs down the wine. Again, negative attitude isn't pointed out, he's just left there enjoying himself and this attitude is thereby presented as being a good one. Plus I already pointed out Sisko's prior hypocrisy in "Pale Moonlight" over Fed ideals and earlier in the finale he essentially told Work to assassinate Gowron.

5) As for O'Brien - to argue that he left DS9 because he hated being "tortured" is just ridiculous. None of the torture and unhappiness he suffered had anything to do with people of DS9, they were all caused by outside forces, and he had no reason to feel any resentment towards the station itself, where he also had many more happy moments. There is nothing in the show itself to suggest that O'Brien resented or hated the station or his friends - that is another thing that Anwar is choosing to read into the story.

So stuff like his wife being possessed by a Pagh Wraith would have happened anywhere else aside from DS9? Any of the Gamma Quadrant bad things that happened?

There is a huge difference between realism and nihilism. But apparently, for some people like Anwar there are just two possibilities: fairytales where everything is 100% happy, sweet and hunky dory and everyone is perfect, and a more realistic world which they tend to see through dark-coloured glasses. The nihilistic and cynical messages are not messages that DS9 is trying to send, these are so obviously messages that Anwar wants to see and the ones that he wants to impose on everyone else, and to do so, he has to use the most cynical and nihilistic arguments. The level of hypocrisy is really astounding.

Maybe they didn't intend to send those nihilistic messages, but given how they portrayed and presented things those ARE what were presented even if they tried to wrap it in an idealistic cloth. They tried to have the good and noble things come off as the stronger, but had things be inherently too cynical for this to show through. I'm just pointing that out. Nothing hypocritical about that, it's just how the show actually was.

Let's see that argument again:

Is Anwar seriously suggesting that a show's message is likely to be conveyed through opinions of two supporting villainous characters who are both genocidal criminals, rather than through opinions of the show's main characters, and far more sympathetic characters, such as Odo?

Given that it's DS9, yes.

*sigh*

Common logical fallacies: Circular argument

 

[apenpaap]

I joined in a few of these discussions too, but I quit for the same reason as you: the guy is stuck in his opinion and loves circular and strawman arguments.

 

[Michael]

It's like the Baltar Trial all over again.

 

[Anwar]

Well, thanks for saving me the time of compiling it all myself.

 

[kes7]

I really think letting the mod who started this finish it is the better plan, Devil Eyes, but that's just me ...

 

[SilentP]

I really think letting the mod who started this finish it is the better plan, Devil Eyes, but that's just me ...

I think part of this was that those that Anwar accused of being Voyager bashing Niners was that those accused were allowed to pull up examples of their posts that counter Anwar's accusations, or ones where they could further explain their sentiments, in case their posts could be misconstrued.

Plus it lessens the clutter in the original thread at least.

DevilEyes is just being proactive?

 

[DevilEyes]

I really think letting the mod who started this finish it is the better plan, Devil Eyes, but that's just me ...

I think part of this was that those that Anwar accused of being Voyager bashing Niners was that those accused were allowed to pull up examples of their posts that counter Anwar's accusations, or ones where they could further explain their sentiments, in case their posts could be misconstrued.

Plus it lessens the clutter in the original thread at least.

DevilEyes is just being proactive?

I was asked by the mod to defend myself and explain how often I post in the VOY subforum, and what are my issues with the show.

Answer: I barely ever post in VOY forum (I mostly got there to read The GodBen/The GhoulBen's review thread, because I'm watching season 4 of VOY on TV, but I didn't post in it much since those reviews and discussions were posted a long time ago), and when I did, none of it was VOY bashing, as seen in the evidence provided. (Unless Anwar has changed his name to "Voyager".) I've already stated my feelings about VOY in the "Niners, how do you feel about VOY" - it's OK, I don't have strong feelings for it either way. Obviously I must like it to an extent if I'm watching it in the first place, but I don't love it and I prefer DS9. There are several episodes I like a lot, the majority of them is just OK, some are bad. The only things I have repeatedly expressed strong dislike for (and none of it was in the VOY subforum) are the character of Neelix (though I must say that he is OK when an episode actually focuses on him - other times, however...) and especially the Neelix/Kes romance; I think I might have also mentioned the pointlessness and lack of any development in the Harry Kim character. That's about it.

And as I said, I thought it was high time we stopped derailing the Jake Sisko thread with this off-topic stuff.

 

[TheGodBen]

Okay, I guess I'll do this here too.

Am I guilty of baselessly insulting Voyager? Yes, back in December 2008. I seem to remember a comment I made in the BSG forum around that time too, but I can't remember the thread title.

Have I ever gone into the Voyager forum to deliberately troll the board? No. Have I ever insulted a Voyager fan based upon their preference of that show? No. Have the mods on that board ever told me off? Yes, to the best of my recollection it happened once, because of a feud I was having with Anwar in a thread about Niners.

Do I criticise Voyager for what I perceive to be its failings? Repeatedly, but never with malice.

Have I ever complimented Voyager?

Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
And I'm spent.

I don't spend as much time in the Voyager forum as I did when reviewing the show, but I'd like to think that when I do post there I am either being light-hearted or making constructive comments (recent example). I made several friends in that forum, and I don't believe that anybody else over there holds a grudge against me. Except possibly Anwar.

Contrary to Anwar's claim that I changed my tune recently, I have never been hostile towards Voyager or its fans, I used to date one for two years, for god's sake. It was my least favourite Trek series, I thought it was below average, and I only called myself a hater because I knew it would get more hits for my review thread. I even made that clear in my second post in the thread, and the mods played along by changing the thread title to "Semi-Hater" when I finished the series. However, Anwar jumped to conclusions as to who I was and what I was like because of the title of that thread. He insisted that I hated TNG and Enterprise even though I am a fan of both shows (because Niners can only like DS9 and TOS), and when I told him he was wrong about that he repeatedly called me a liar and claimed it was all part of some plot I have against Voyager. Even after we agreed to an armistice he still came into the review thread a week later in order to accuse me of some absurd and statistically impossible plot. (And he still hasn't paid me my money from the bet. )

I have seen Anwar take part in other topics and be quite rational and a good debater, so it would be a shame if his actions against Niners somehow saw him banned. However, he has to stop insulting a large section of this community based on the actions of a handful of people, and so far there is little evidence that those people even exist at all!

 

[JustKate]

I agree with that ghoulish Ben fellow that Anwar is a thoughtful guy and is usually a good debater. And I also agree that he does indeed get a bee in his bonnet at times concerning Niners' hatred of VOY, and he also does at times extend that unfairly to all DS9 fans.

I haven't found it to be nearly as prevalent as he has, but then again, I haven't been here nearly as long as he has either.

But I also think that there is sometimes a double standard - that for some DS9 fans, though certainly not all or even most (heck, I'm a DS9 fan) things that would be jeered at on VOY would be considered fine if they happened on DS9 - at least in retrospect. I haven't seen this recently (not since you've joined, DevilEyes, as far as I can remember), but I've definitely seen it here on the BBS. It can be reeeeeeally annoying, too.

I have in the 15 months or so that I've been a member here had people try to make me feel bad about liking VOY. Which sounds ridiculous - heck, it is ridiculous - but I swear it's the truth. It hasn't worked, of course, because why should I care what anybody thinks about my taste in television? But yes, I have definitely had people try, and it's sometimes been concentrated in the DS9 forum. Make of that what you will.

But I haven't experienced it that often. Sometimes, sure, but not that often, and it's been in other forums, too. But when it's happened, it's reeeeeeally annoying.

I don't want to make anybody feel bad here, but I am pretty confused as to the purpose of this thread. If it's to discuss the general topic of "Do the majority of Niners make fun of Voyager?" that's fine. But it seems to me that the point is the debate a particular individual. That seems pretty odd to me.

 

[Myasishchev]

So is this the thread for baselessly insulting Voyager? Cool.

Slipstream drive sucks.

 

[RyuRoots]

I don't want to make anybody feel bad here, but I am pretty confused as to the purpose of this thread. If it's to discuss the general topic of "Do the majority of Niners make fun of Voyager?" that's fine. But it seems to me that the point is the debate a particular individual. That seems pretty odd to me.

Take a look at what happened to the Cirroc Lofton/Jake Sisko thread, and you'll see what this thread is about.

So is this the thread for baselessly insulting Voyager? Cool.

Slipstream drive sucks.

 

[JustKate]

I don't want to make anybody feel bad here, but I am pretty confused as to the purpose of this thread. If it's to discuss the general topic of "Do the majority of Niners make fun of Voyager?" that's fine. But it seems to me that the point is the debate a particular individual. That seems pretty odd to me.

Take a look at what happened to the Cirroc Lofton/Jake Sisko thread, and you'll see what this thread is about.

I know, but...I've seen people commit far greater sins and repeat them over and over and over and do so much more rudely and not get a thread started about them. That someone might be annoyed doesn't surprise me. That this was the method used to complain about it does. Isn't that what the "ignore" button is for?

 

[Kegg]

He insisted that I hated TNG and Enterprise even though I am a fan of both shows (because Niners can only like DS9 and TOS),

Wait wait wait wait.

The series that gave us O'Brien, Worf, Cardassians, Bajorans, Ferengi, most of the Klingon culture as we now understand it, the series which included scripts by Ron D. Moore, Ira Steven Behr, and other future Niner screenwriters... Niners must all hate it?

I realise there's often a kind of TOS/DS9 axis, but that doesn't mean structurally speaking it makes any more sense than a TNG/DS9 one. I personally tend to think of myself as a TNG fan who liked how DS9 built on the universe TNG fleshed out, meself, yet I disgress.

 

[Photon]

So is this the thread for baselessly insulting Voyager? Cool.

Slipstream drive sucks.

What was wrong w/Voyager's outfitters...could we not get a 7 of 9 Cameltoe at least once...crap

 

[Anwar]

He insisted that I hated TNG and Enterprise even though I am a fan of both shows (because Niners can only like DS9 and TOS),

Wait wait wait wait.

The series that gave us O'Brien, Worf, Cardassians, Bajorans, Ferengi, most of the Klingon culture as we now understand it, the series which included scripts by Ron D. Moore, Ira Steven Behr, and other future Niner screenwriters... Niners must all hate it?

Yes, they see it that TNG held back those future writers, diluted their concepts from how perfect they would've been if they were 100% DS9 creations and not been on another show and that working on DS9 possibly damaged their writing abilities beforehand.

 

[DevilEyes]

So is this the thread for baselessly insulting Voyager? Cool.

Slipstream drive sucks.

Sorry, but nope, it is not. Start your own thread for that.

Nobody has baselessly insulted Voyager here anyway... or insulted Voyager in any way, for that matter.

This is a thread for exactly what the mod asked us to do - we, the Accused, are supposed to prove our innocence against Anwar's accusations of being evil Voyager haters who are provoking him into constant trolling.