Fan Film Ideas Used in Pro Productions

[Barbreader]

OK, we keep taking individual threads about specific fan film productions and turning them into threads about how Paramount used Fan Film ideas in Trek Wars (A name for JJA Trek which I stole, from Marco at ST:Intrepid, albeit with permission, ...) The purpose of this thread is to allow those of us who think a lot was 'borrowed' from fan Trek (legally or not) to voice our beliefs, as well as how we feel about the whole thing..

Fleetlord set out an entire series of ideas from STOGAM which were in Trek Wars. I still maintain there is a ship or device in Exeter which has a gyroscope like ring which turns around it just like Spock ship in Trek Wars, and that that was 'borrowed.' I invite and encourage others to add their ideas to this thread, even if already posted under other threads.

It is my own feelings, that, whatever the law, the morally right thing for Paramount to do when they take fan Trek ideas would be to allow the Fan Trek producer to sell fan Trek stuff and pay Paramount 25 per cent of the proceeds. That would give fans the cash to produce more, and Paramount would have more pre-tried ideas to 'borrow' from without putting their own money on the line. They would reduce their financial exposure, increase their profits, and look like a good guy to the hard core Trek community. In short, everyone wins.

The fact is that, I am told by my Blue Ray loving friends that they find illegal DVDs of Fan Trek on sale in legit retail outlets right now, but you know that the Fan Trek producers aren't getting that money.

The current situation is one of limbo in which everyone, even Paramount, loses.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I don't believe that Paramount has lifted a single thing from fan films.

Nothing. I've seen the productions in question and the premises and events that are cited are generic, already staples of Trek and sf movies in general before they appeared in Trek fan films.

Fan films set out to imitate Star Trek. They incorporate elements from Trek and other skiffy movies and TV shows. They shouldn't be surprised when Paramount produces a Trek story that uses similar elements or story events. I posted a link to John August's blog over in the other topic that nicely addresses a non-Trek example of the same thing.

Blow up Vulcan? Well, I suppose they could have blown up Earth instead. Or Alderaan. After all, given the backgrounds and expressed enthusiasms of some of the producers, I'd be more suspicious of them borrowing elements from Lucas's Star Wars films than from Trek fan films.

The only "gyroscopic" effects element that I can think of in Exeter - being the guy who's responsible for most of that on the show - is a rotating ring gag at the center of the (SPOILERS if you care) big Tressaurian machine that appears in Act Three - and that's just the use of an old rotating-ring gag that can be seen notably as part of the Kryptonian "restraining field" in the opening sequence of Richard Donner's Superman.

 

[Tom]

Kinda have to side with Dennis who has been a writer in the industry and knows it well. I think the bigger issue is writers coming up with original concepts that will sell to the general population. I still believe that Scifi still some original concepts out there. The question is, are the concepts so 'out there' that they will loose the average viewer? The industy hates to take big chances and risk losing money on untested ideas, that it why we see them constantly trying to recycle or re-imagine old concepts that have work before in the past. And, if they do go with a unique concept, generaly the prodution does not have a high budget. Star Trek actually copies Star Trek itself more than anything. We have had two movies in a row that have had a bald villian from Romulas! There is also the sometimes over use of time travel etc..

 

[DestinyCaptain]

The fact that they have said publically that they used several sources for inspiration for the writing of this movie, including movie and comics, makes it clear to me that they have atleast SEEN the fan films in question. Heck, we know in other media such as music that once you have sampled a product you may unconsciously impart it to the one you are working on at the present. I cite Phil Collins and his song "Sussudio" as an example. Collins repeatedly said he had not intentionally stolen the music from Prince's "1999".

It is quite a different thing to take an idea pitched to you and rework it. You may also recall what happened with the film "Coming to America" and the writer Art Buchwald. There is also the whole deal with DS9 and Babylon 5.

If the writers are such big fans as they claim they are, it is certainly possible that they have seen these various fan films. It's also clear that Paramount was intentionally targeting the TOS version of Trek as a point from which to re-launch the franchise. I think they are VERY aware of the interest in that era by way of the fan films. Paramount could have simply started Trek over in a totally new and non-canon related form. Why didn't they?

It doesn't matter if they were influnced or not by the fan films because they are free and public. There is no copy protection on any fan film that I know of, and I really don't think any of them want to go down that road. Yes, Paramount could jump in and regulate and control this arm of the Franchise. However, if they did this the freedom currently enjoyed by those making them would vanish over night. If Paramont shows up at the party, they'll have direct incluence in what is produced. It is also true that they could just shut all of this down right now if they so desired. I personally don't think that would benefit them and they know it. They benefit from the interest in Trek. Keeping Trek in a boil is good for them and their future film profits.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The fact that they have said publically that they used several sources for inspiration for the writing of this movie, including movie and comics, makes it clear to me that they have at least SEEN the fan films in question.

I wouldn't assume that. Most Trek fans have no idea that these movies exist, and if you read enough fan boards you discover that of those who have seen a couple not all are particularly impressed.

 

[Maurice]

The fact that they have said publically that they used several sources for inspiration for the writing of this movie, including movie and comics, makes it clear to me that they have at least SEEN the fan films in question.

I wouldn't assume that. Most Trek fans have no idea that these movies exist, and if you read enough fan boards you discover that of those who have seen a couple not all are particularly impressed.

I'd agree with that. I showed parts of Tressaurian to a friend of mine and he said the amateur acting totally turned him off, although he appreciated all the technical effort. Most of the Trek fans I know have never heard of or seen the fan films.

 

[DestinyCaptain]

Well, not to beat dead horse, but we're not exactly talking regular movie folks here. We're talking about alledged fans of Trek that happen to be involved with the writing of the film. There is James Cawley's own account of Abram's recognizing him on the Trek lot. There is also his tale about being at a convention where the Shat was also present and some of the folks from ENT yelled, "Hey, Kirk..... Not you. The Kid". I read on Dochterman's blog before he joined Phase II where he commented on Exeter and , at that time, New Voyages. Yes, as you guys pointed out the amateur acting turned them off. Daren specifically cited this as I recall.

Does that mean they definitely have seen these fan productions? No. I do submit that if they are the fans they claim to be, that they have likely seen them. This appears to be the case with many of the professionals in the business that are also fans.

 

[Barbreader]

The fact that they have said publically that they used several sources for inspiration for the writing of this movie, including movie and comics, makes it clear to me that they have at least SEEN the fan films in question.

I wouldn't assume that. Most Trek fans have no idea that these movies exist, and if you read enough fan boards you discover that of those who have seen a couple not all are particularly impressed.

I both agree and disagree. I think that almost all mild Trek fans have no idea that quality fan Trek even exists. I know that, in April (six months ago) I thought of fan Trek as being kids using dad's video camera in their basements. I never even sampled it. This is made worse, not better, by the fact that A LOT of the fan Trek on You Tube is Teen Fan Trek, most of which is just plain bad. I think getting people to the best of Fan Trek is a trick.

Also, the discussion above that all this is recycled ideas is sort of an anti-response. If Fan Trek could have a mild source of funding, it could explore new ideas cheaply, which Paramount could then take for fresher big screen exploitation. Fan Trek could be the Star Trek equivalent of Baseball's Farm Teams, or minor leagues, but for ideas. That would serve everyone. I enjoyed World Enough and Time a lot more than Trek Wars, and it had what... 1/2000 the budget? I'm not objecting to Paramount stealing ideas from Fan Trek, I'm saying they should treat Fan Trek like a seed farm, and pick the best hybrids to grow on their massive scale. How about a TOS episode in which they find a world in which people are pets to the Robots? It's all happy until they find the Humane Society equivalent which is sterilizing and exterminating the excess people.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Well, not to beat dead horse, but we're not exactly talking regular movie folks here. We're talking about alledged fans of Trek that happen to be involved with the writing of the film.

First, I'm saying that the vast majority of Trek fans are unaware of or uninterested in Trek films - so the fact that Orci and Kurtzman are to some degree Trek fans doesn't have any bearing on whether they'd know anything specific about fan films other than, perhaps, that there are some. Abrams was much less of a Trek fan - you can find dozens of statements by him testifying to this.

I've seen nothing to persuade me that Paramount's ever borrowed anything from a Trek fan film. I have been told that Trek novelists have, on a couple of occasions, inserted fan film references into Trek novels as in-jokes and when the references were recognized were told to take them out.

Anyway, I suppose I'm engaged in attempting a negative proof - if people are convinced that something is true, there's no way that I can "prove" that it's not. Since I've no other contribution to make to this particular topic I guess I'm done.

 

[USS Mariner]

I've seen nothing to persuade me that Paramount's ever borrowed anything from a Trek fan film. I have been told that Trek novelists have, on a couple of occasions, inserted fan film references into Trek novels as in-jokes and when the references were recognized were told to take them out.

Damn, that stinks if true. You'd think borrowing something from an unlicensed work couldn't possibly breach copyright, as the originators of the reference material have no official claim to it, but I guess it's more of a CYA reaction of the part of the publishers.

 

[FalTorPan]

^ Copyright issues aren't that simple.

 

[USS Intrepid]

Afraid I have to agree with Dennis as well. I don't think we're anything other than a minor blip on the radar, and certainly not anything anyone's terribly likely to borrow from.

 

[Tom]

I agree that tons of trek fans are unaware of the fan films, I know this by talking to many fans at convention and other type gatherings, and most have not heard of them. New Voyages is by far the best know in with in the industy most due to there use of industy production experts and notable guest actors during the past 4 years. Abrams recognizing Cawley does not surprise me at all. I would love to see Rod get a cameo in some trek production.

 

[Rattrap]

Many writers will not go near fan productions for fear of litigation. If you claim for instance that your script for "In Harm's Way" for instance, predates Orci and Kurtzman's script featuring an armada of Doomsday Machines for STXII (and no, I don't have any advance knowledge- I'm just sayin'), then their only defense in copyright court is to prove they never saw it.

Anne McCaffrey and Mercedes Lackey also have stringent policies about reading fan-fiction for the same reasons.

 

[Captain Robert April]

It'd be cheaper to just buy the rights to the fan fic than deal with the costs of litigation; even if they win, the only ones who'd make out would be the lawyers.

 

[Barbreader]

It'd be cheaper to just buy the rights to the fan fic than deal with the costs of litigation; even if they win, the only ones who'd make out would be the lawyers.

What would be cheapEST is to let the fan filmmakers run their films on the internet and for DVD sales and take a cut and have a right to any ideas in them. The only lawyer would be the one who drafts the form agreement (probably under $2000), and they get money and put out NONE.

 

[Tom]

It'd be cheaper to just buy the rights to the fan fic than deal with the costs of litigation; even if they win, the only ones who'd make out would be the lawyers.

What would be cheapEST is to let the fan filmmakers run their films on the internet and for DVD sales and take a cut and have a right to any ideas in them. The only lawyer would be the one who drafts the form agreement (probably under $2000), and they get money and put out NONE.

It's really a moot point anyways, the film writers have the owners of the tradmark on there side and can shut down any fan film at will. You only retain rights to part of you story that have no Star Trek elements in it. So if your story has Vulcan blowing up and there version does too, there is nothing that can be done about it since you are legaly not suppose to use Vulcan (in that same context, as a star trek planet ) in the first place.

 

[Maurice]

It'd be cheaper to just buy the rights to the fan fic than deal with the costs of litigation; even if they win, the only ones who'd make out would be the lawyers.

What would be cheapEST is to let the fan filmmakers run their films on the internet and for DVD sales and take a cut and have a right to any ideas in them. The only lawyer would be the one who drafts the form agreement (probably under $2000), and they get money and put out NONE.

No it wouldn't. The moment money gets involved the legal costs start becoming a factor. It's not just about drafting the initial agreement, it's the cost of enforcing said agreement and the cost of enforcing them. If the potential cost of writing and enforcing said contracts meets or exceeds the possible revenue from sales, and if there are ANY potential ownership issues, then there's zero reason for the corporation to bother. Even known TV series often don't make significant sales on DVD. It's not unreasonable to assume that amateurishly (and most are) produced fan films would fare even more poorly.

 

[Barbreader]

The fact that they have said publically that they used several sources for inspiration for the writing of this movie, including movie and comics, makes it clear to me that they have at least SEEN the fan films in question.

I wouldn't assume that. Most Trek fans have no idea that these movies exist, and if you read enough fan boards you discover that of those who have seen a couple not all are particularly impressed.

Another thought. Let us assume that these statements are true, and that JJA and his fellow writers barely knew that Fan Films even existed, and, indeed, had never watched any of them, as seems to be the consensus view on this thread. Now, James Cawley was on the Parmount lot while JJA Trek was being filmed. How on earth is it that JJA recognized him, knew who he was, invited him to add input, complemented his work as Captain Kirk, and offered him to be in the film as an extra? Do you think it was Cawley's work as a costumer in TNG? Because I have to tell you, that would be a lot more remarkable than having watched a few fan films. I think it's most remarkable that somebody who didn't pay any attention to fan films would recognize James Cawley, and introduce him as one of the Captain Kirks.

I frankly find the arguments here that the writers at Paramount were ignorant of the fan films curious and bizarre. I do, however, believe that it is unlikely any producer of a fan film would object to the use of their ideas, unacknowledged, since they wouldn't want Paramount to shut them down. There was a time, long long ago (1968-1972, roughly), when I used to submit story ideas to DC comics with no goal of being paid or acknowledged, but just joy when they printed my letter and promised to write a story I suggested. But frankly, a letter is a lot less work than a fan film... like the difference between a virus and an elephant.

 

[Tom]

JJ, Orci and Kurtzman did know about New Voyages, that was mentioned somewhere a while back, I don't remember if they watched an episode or not but i suspect they did, either the Chekov or Sulu episode (or both). As i mentioned previously there is a high number of of people in and around Paramount that know about NV(PII). Cawley and his crew know more people down there than you can imagine. I have hung around with these guys as far back as 2005 when I was in CA and have seen it myself.