How did Cirroc Lofton get away with it?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Jake seemed barely in it, and half of the time he was in it, he was used quite well. The other half, well... come on, his "I need to put my life in danger because I'm a WRITER!" got old pretty fast.

I dunno...ever read Anderson Cooper's biography, and some of the reasons that he ended up as a war correspondent? It's actually pretty striking if you read about his early life...just like Jake, he suffered the loss of a parent early in life, and in his case he also lost a brother. If you read the Wikipedia article, you almost find yourself wondering if some of the reason he went to the high-risk areas that he traveled to was to try and find answers to the questions that those incidents raised in his mind, when he was young.

Jake Sisko, too, has seen and experienced a lot. And to me, it actually doesn't seem so unreasonable given this real-life precedent, that he might feel driven to the same kind of risk-taking behavior that Anderson Cooper has.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, it's like Neelix. Everyone says he's annoying but if they just watched the damn show they'd see that he wasn't.

I watch the damn show and I know he is.

That's because you're a Niner, and we all know how THEY feel towards Voyager and everything about it. If he were some grim bitter crazy AWOL soldier type who suffered from perpetual PTSD and never smiled you'd think he was on par with...well whatever it is you think is a good character.

 

[TheGodBen]

That's because you're a Niner, and we all know how THEY feel towards Voyager and everything about it.

Middling?

 

[PSGarak]

That's because you're a Niner, and we all know how THEY feel towards Voyager and everything about it.

Right, because all "Niners" are mental clones of each other. Don't you ever get tired of tooting that tired kazoo?

 

[Akiraprise]

Yeah, it's like Neelix. Everyone says he's annoying but if they just watched the damn show they'd see that he wasn't.

I watch the damn show and I know he is.

That's because you're a Niner, and we all know how THEY feel towards Voyager and everything about it. If he were some grim bitter crazy AWOL soldier type who suffered from perpetual PTSD and never smiled you'd think he was on par with...well whatever it is you think is a good character.

Well, I'm a member of the cult of 7 of 9 and I thought Neelix was annoying most of the time too.
My least favorite character on Voyager.

As for Jake, he wasn't written as a wunderkind like Wes was. So Jake was never really annoying. He was just a kid forced to live on a rundown space station with his Dad who got into mischief from time to time.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

I watch the damn show and I know he is.

That's because you're a Niner, and we all know how THEY feel towards Voyager and everything about it. If he were some grim bitter crazy AWOL soldier type who suffered from perpetual PTSD and never smiled you'd think he was on par with...well whatever it is you think is a good character.

Well, I'm a member of the cult of 7 of 9 and I thought Neelix was annoying most of the time too.
My least favorite character on Voyager.

As for Jake, he wasn't written as a wunderkind like Wes was. So Jake was never really annoying. He was just a kid forced to live on a rundown space station with his Dad who got into mischief from time to time.

Unsurprisingly, I agree with Akiraprise.

I watched VOY end to end and am a fan - in fact, as I have stated several times in this forum and whenever I dare to enter the VOY forum and subject myself to accusations such as Anwar's almost as soon as I enter the door, VOY is the only Trek show for which I actually LIKE a 'ship! And that's saying something!

But for me, Neelix was annoying.

But I have to agree with another poster upstream - Anwar, don't you EVER get tired of tooting the tiresome "All Niners are the same, hate VOY, and are all of us "out to get" (isn't that the term you used in the VOY forum ) you" kazoo?

I mean seriously, it is starting to make you look rather petty and ridiculous....if not outright paranoid.

There are plenty of DS9 fans who like Neelix...and plenty who don't like him. But there are also plenty of TNG fans, TOS fans, and ENT fans with the SAME EXACT OPINIONS.

Why you continue to blame DS9 fans for anything that might even HINT at VOY's lack of popularity on this board is beside me...but seriously. did you ever think that the reason why VOY is popular elsewhere, but not so much on this board, is because of guys like YOU? Guys who make going into the VOY forum an exercise in frustration at EVERY TURN?

You yourself do not like everything about VOY. Neither of the moderators of your forum (both of whom I positively adore and get along with swimmingly) like everything about VOY. Most of the "hard core" VOY fans in the forum have criticisms - in fact, I'm not sure if I know of a single person who loves every single thing about VOY without a single criticism.

And yet....if a person who happens to be a DS9 fan says they dislike Neelix (an opinion shared by many VOY fans who don't like or who have never even seen DS9), out you come with your "DS9 fans killled my mother" drama.

Why do you hold DS9 fans so such a high standard? That we must love EVERYTHING about VOY in order to 'prove' to you that we are not haters and trolls? Why are we held to a zero tolerance for complaints standard when EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF YOUR FORUM has their own complaints?

Don't you see how unfair you are being?

And don't you further see how that attitude can REPEL otherwise legitimate posters from your forum?

I mean, as much as I adore your two mods and love posting with them (as well as the J/C girlfriends!)....I rarely venture into the VOY forum. Not because I dislike the show, because I like it alot. Not because I dislike your mods and think they are jerks, because I adore them.

No. The reason I don't post in the VOY forum is because of guys like YOU.

You are like that Japanese guy they found on one of the Pacific Islands...waging WWII for 47 years....DECADES after it was all over.

Here's a news flash for you, Anwar: The DS9/VOY Fan Wars of 2001 - 2002 are OVER. Done. As in, neither of the two Niners who stirred up the shit are even HERE any longer. Nor are the two VOY fan shitstirrers.

ALL OF THEM ARE GONE. THEY WERE GONE YEARS AGO.

THE WAR IS OVER.

Good grief. Pack up your bazooka already.

 

[Shazam!]

VOY is the only Trek show for which I actually LIKE a 'ship!

Voyager looked like a giant butt plug.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I think the actor who played Wesley is excellent. I loved "Stand by Me." He's abetter actor and as far as I know, a good guy.

Many people hate Wesley Crusher. Everybody loves Wil Wheaton.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Many people hate Wesley Crusher. Everybody loves Wil Wheaton.

Well said.

As for "how did Cirroc Lofton get away with it?"
Simple. His character was better written from the start, as were the interactions of other characters with him.

 

[TeutonicNights]

wesley laid ashley judd. i hate him.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Many people hate Wesley Crusher. Everybody loves Wil Wheaton.

Well said.

x2

Wil Wheaton is a very likeable guy. Wesley Crusher is an annoying dweeb.

As for "how did Cirroc Lofton get away with it?"
Simple. His character was better written from the start, as were the interactions of other characters with him.

Agreed. I think they did a good job with Jake, because they focused most on his relationship with his dad....and that relationship very much influenced how Ben Sisko viewed life. His storylines were very often Ben Sisko's storylines (or at least his backstory)...and that make Jake relevant to the overall story. Not just an annoying distraction FROM the story.

In other words, there was a PURPOSE to Jake Sisko, outside of interrupting the flow of the show with 'another annoying Trek Kid Episode'.

 

[Kegg]

In other words, there was a PURPOSE to Jake Sisko, outside of interrupting the flow of the show with 'another annoying Trek Kid Episode'.

More than that, when he's not integral to the plot he's usually not in the episode or involved in a normal-kid B-plot. Wesley, by contrast, can be awkwardly shoehorned into an episode. A particularly bad example of this would be "The Battle", where his only appearances in the episode are to solve problems better than the professional crew and then leave. It's episodes like this more than anything else that illustrate what's wrong with Wesley - he's being inserted into the format as a deus ex machina plot device and then discarded.

 

[Anwar]

There are plenty of DS9 fans who like Neelix...and plenty who don't like him. But there are also plenty of TNG fans, TOS fans, and ENT fans with the SAME EXACT OPINIONS.

Why you continue to blame DS9 fans for anything that might even HINT at VOY's lack of popularity on this board is beside me...but seriously. did you ever think that the reason why VOY is popular elsewhere, but not so much on this board, is because of guys like YOU? Guys who make going into the VOY forum an exercise in frustration at EVERY TURN?

1) Mods aren't allowed to directly post at posters like you have

2) You're more of a ranter than anyone in this thread.

Guys like me exist because of the lousy attitude VOY gets from DS9 fans.

And yet....if a person who happens to be a DS9 fan says they dislike Neelix (an opinion shared by many VOY fans who don't like or who have never even seen DS9), out you come with your "DS9 fans killled my mother" drama.

Well, while there are likely Niners out there who WOULD go that far, murder against my family hasn't happened yet.

Why do you hold DS9 fans so such a high standard? That we must love EVERYTHING about VOY in order to 'prove' to you that we are not haters and trolls? Why are we held to a zero tolerance for complaints standard when EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF YOUR FORUM has their own complaints?

Because they are VOY fans who agree that they enjoyed the show. Niners are the polar opposite who either rag on what they hated about VOY and nothing else, or they are BSGers who whine about how VOY shoud have been 100% like Galactica all the time or worse than Galactica.

Don't you see how unfair you are being?

Niners started this, not my fault they can't stand what they themselves created with their own intolerance and immense arrogance.

No. The reason I don't post in the VOY forum is because of guys like YOU.

...Because you're a Niner, it's simple.

You are like that Japanese guy they found on one of the Pacific Islands...waging WWII for 47 years....DECADES after it was all over.

Here's a news flash for you, Anwar: The DS9/VOY Fan Wars of 2001 - 2002 are OVER. Done. As in, neither of the two Niners who stirred up the shit are even HERE any longer. Nor are the two VOY fan shitstirrers.

ALL OF THEM ARE GONE. THEY WERE GONE YEARS AGO.

THE WAR IS OVER.

Good grief. Pack up your bazooka already.

No, they still exist. Most just don't want to admit they do, but they still exist.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Where does it state that a mod is forbidden to enter a debate or to speak to their fellow posters except in the context of discipline?

And why is it that a dislike of VOY means I have a mad-on against all the fans? I do feel a strong dislike of VOY. Yes, I thought VOY should've been more like nuBsG, but I had nuBsG for that. What's done is done as far as VOY is concerned, and while I can lay out a case as to why I think my way makes sense, I do NOT feel like it would be OK to pull a Krenim and just erase the show I didn't like and deprive everyone who DID like it of their ability to enjoy it.

I also dislike TNG, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with those who do--and that especially comes from very personal reasons of how I changed. Our likes and dislikes are very personal things and I would no more change how you regard the show than I would want someone to tell me that there's something wrong with me for not being able to identify with TNG anymore.

Yes, I think DS9 was better, but I KNOW others will not agree, and surely have their own solid personal reasons for their opinions. And that's FINE with me. Never in my tenure on this board have I gone into the VOY forum to attack people for kicks like the people who did so before my time--yet I am lumped in with them, and so many other people are? There is no logic in that whatsoever. How does this exemplify intolerance and arrogance?

 

[Anwar]

Never in my tenure on this board have I gone into the VOY forum to attack people for kicks like the people who did so before my time--yet I am lumped in with them, and so many other people are? There is no logic in that whatsoever. How does this exemplify intolerance and arrogance?

And unfortunately, you are a minority that doesn't exist in enough numbers to escape the greater majority of the rest of the Niners and their opinions towards Modern Trek. I apologize for that, but the vocal minority is so...well, minor that they easily get swallowed up by the Niners I talk about.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

How can you prove I am a minority? What are your criteria? Is it that you maybe haven't tried getting to know any of us besides me?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

So you weight friendly responses less than you weight rude ones? I'm afraid that makes your result inevitable--it's in the design of your "poll" itself. No wonder you'll always come up with the same negative result.

 

[Anwar]

So you weight friendly responses less than you weight rude ones? I'm afraid that makes your result inevitable--it's in the design of your "poll" itself. No wonder you'll always come up with the same negative result.

Ugh, I was editing my other post and deleted it by mistake...

Anyways, to the post at hand: There's also that the friendly posts' content are always less in actual content than the negative criticisms. It's the usual "Well, I don't hate VOY but don't think it was great" vs 4 paragraphs of someone blathering about how deeply they despise VOY for every little reason.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The reason people don't run on when they're trying to be nice is exactly because we feel running on would be rude. I don't think that diminishes such posts' worth.

Now, me--I'm Cardassian. ( ) I run on about EVERYTHING...I'm an equal-opportunity blatherer. But a lot of people aren't.

 

[Anwar]

Which unfortunately, gives the advantage to the Haters and makes them out to be the majority.