Suspended animation?

[Zachary Smith]

A scientist has apparently discovered that hydrogen sulfide can be used to induce a state of "suspended animation". His discovery hinges on the notion that lack of oxygen doesn't cause death but rather toxic reactions caused by dropping oxygen levels damage cells, causing death. He uses hydrogen sulfide to take the place of oxygen in the system, thus suspending metabolic function, but preserving the cellular system intact so that it can be reinitiated when oxygen is restored. He foresees it as useful in emergency room situations or during surgeries etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/09/cheating.death.suspended.animation/index.html

I wonder though, if this idea were coupled with cooling the body to just above freezing (in order to avoid ice crystal formation damage) so as to additionally reduce metabolic demand and biological activity, if this is not a method by which someone could theoretically be placed in indefinite suspended animation--so long as the system was properly monitored and maintained.

What do you think? Long range space travel? Suspended animation until a cure can be discovered? What are all the possibilities?

 

[John Picard]

A scientist has apparently discovered that hydrogen sulfide can be used to induce a state of "suspended animation". His discovery hinges on the notion that lack of oxygen doesn't cause death but rather toxic reactions caused by dropping oxygen levels damage cells, causing death. He uses hydrogen sulfide to take the place of oxygen in the system, thus suspending metabolic function, but preserving the cellular system intact so that it can be reinitiated when oxygen is restored. He foresees it as useful in emergency room situations or during surgeries etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/09/cheating.death.suspended.animation/index.html

I wonder though, if this idea were coupled with cooling the body to just above freezing (in order to avoid ice crystal formation damage) so as to additionally reduce metabolic demand and biological activity, if this is not a method by which someone could theoretically be placed in indefinite suspended animation--so long as the system was properly monitored and maintained.

What do you think? Long range space travel? Suspended animation until a cure can be discovered? What are all the possibilities?

Mmmm, gotta work out the thawing and revival process first, but this is an intriguing idea.

 

[Zachary Smith]

A scientist has apparently discovered that hydrogen sulfide can be used to induce a state of "suspended animation". His discovery hinges on the notion that lack of oxygen doesn't cause death but rather toxic reactions caused by dropping oxygen levels damage cells, causing death. He uses hydrogen sulfide to take the place of oxygen in the system, thus suspending metabolic function, but preserving the cellular system intact so that it can be reinitiated when oxygen is restored. He foresees it as useful in emergency room situations or during surgeries etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/09/cheating.death.suspended.animation/index.html

I wonder though, if this idea were coupled with cooling the body to just above freezing (in order to avoid ice crystal formation damage) so as to additionally reduce metabolic demand and biological activity, if this is not a method by which someone could theoretically be placed in indefinite suspended animation--so long as the system was properly monitored and maintained.

What do you think? Long range space travel? Suspended animation until a cure can be discovered? What are all the possibilities?

Mmmm, gotta work out the thawing and revival process first, but this is an intriguing idea.

Well, if the body is not actually FROZEN but rather just cooled to just above freezing, it would just be a matter of bringing up the core temperature and then restoring oxygen flow, I'd think.

 

[John Picard]

A scientist has apparently discovered that hydrogen sulfide can be used to induce a state of "suspended animation". His discovery hinges on the notion that lack of oxygen doesn't cause death but rather toxic reactions caused by dropping oxygen levels damage cells, causing death. He uses hydrogen sulfide to take the place of oxygen in the system, thus suspending metabolic function, but preserving the cellular system intact so that it can be reinitiated when oxygen is restored. He foresees it as useful in emergency room situations or during surgeries etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/10/09/cheating.death.suspended.animation/index.html

I wonder though, if this idea were coupled with cooling the body to just above freezing (in order to avoid ice crystal formation damage) so as to additionally reduce metabolic demand and biological activity, if this is not a method by which someone could theoretically be placed in indefinite suspended animation--so long as the system was properly monitored and maintained.

What do you think? Long range space travel? Suspended animation until a cure can be discovered? What are all the possibilities?

Mmmm, gotta work out the thawing and revival process first, but this is an intriguing idea.

Well, if the body is not actually FROZEN but rather just cooled to just above freezing, it would just be a matter of bringing up the core temperature and then restoring oxygen flow, I'd think.

True, but then what are the long term affects? 10 years out with a body thaw OK with no issues appearing anytime in the future? 20 years? 50 years?

I'm not criticizing you, I'm just applying experience I've garnered over a lifetime to look at what I call "The Big Picture".

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Intruiging, but would require some major advances to be viable.

I know that hydrogen sulfide is one of the things that are most worried about in enclosed spaces in industrial processes like paper mills.

It doesn't take too many ppm to be fatal, and to add insult to injury, hydrogen sulfide can destroy the sense of smell in short order. Many people succumb because they stopped smelling the rotten egg smell and thought they were clear of the hazard.

While looking up data on how many PPM can be fatal, I found this on Wiki about hydrogen sulfide and induced hypothermia:

However, a 2008 study failed to reproduce the effect in pigs, concluding that the effects seen in mice were not present in larger mammals

 

[Zachary Smith]

Intruiging, but would require some major advances to be viable.

I know that hydrogen sulfide is one of the things that are most worried about in enclosed spaces in industrial processes like paper mills.

It doesn't take too many ppm to be fatal, and to add insult to injury, hydrogen sulfide can destroy the sense of smell in short order. Many people succumb because they stopped smelling the rotten egg smell and thought they were clear of the hazard.

While looking up data on how many PPM can be fatal, I found this on Wiki about hydrogen sulfide and induced hypothermia:

However, a 2008 study failed to reproduce the effect in pigs, concluding that the effects seen in mice were not present in larger mammals

According to the cited article:

"It's been harder than expected to get large animals, like swine, into anything close to suspended animation. Ikaria had to develop an injectable form; the current drug in development is based on sodium sulfide, which dissolves to become hydrogen sulfide in the blood. Trials to test its safety in humans are under way in Canada and Australia."

Apparently they're finding work-arounds . . .

 

[Supreme Admiral]

That's what I'm signed up for in the first place.

 

[Zachary Smith]

Mmmm, gotta work out the thawing and revival process first, but this is an intriguing idea.

Well, if the body is not actually FROZEN but rather just cooled to just above freezing, it would just be a matter of bringing up the core temperature and then restoring oxygen flow, I'd think.

True, but then what are the long term affects? 10 years out with a body thaw OK with no issues appearing anytime in the future? 20 years? 50 years?

I'm not criticizing you, I'm just applying experience I've garnered over a lifetime to look at what I call "The Big Picture".

I do believe that the exact sort of questions you're posing are why this whole thing is in the "consideration" stage and NOT the "application" stage, ya see . . . "Big Picture" and all not withstanding.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Interesting update there Doctor Smith. Thanks!

 

[T'Girl]

Well, if the body is not actually FROZEN but rather just cooled to just above freezing, it would just be a matter of bringing up the core temperature and then restoring oxygen flow, I'd think.

Wait a minute, you're in suspended animation and refrig down to above freezing, your oxygen replaced with hydrogen sulfate. If your circulatory system is stopped, how do you get the hydrogen sulfate out and the oxygen back in?

 

[Jadzia]

Wait a minute, you're in suspended animation and refrig down to above freezing, your oxygen replaced with hydrogen sulfate. If your circulatory system is stopped, how do you get the hydrogen sulfate out and the oxygen back in?

What about oxygenated blood being pumped into a major artery, and hydrogren sulfate blood being drawn out through a major vein? Do undertakers do something like this when they displace blood with embalming fluid after bodies come out of refrigerated storage?

In their case, it serves as a potent antibacterial to prevent unpleasant things happening before the person's funeral, and also to produce an (artificial) pink skin colour instead of the natural grey-blue. Suffice to say the process gets the fluid around to most areas.

 

[FordSVT]

Wait a minute, you're in suspended animation and refrig down to above freezing, your oxygen replaced with hydrogen sulfate. If your circulatory system is stopped, how do you get the hydrogen sulfate out and the oxygen back in?

What about oxygenated blood being pumped into a major artery, and hydrogren sulfate blood being drawn out through a major vein? Do undertakers do something like this when they displace blood with embalming fluid after bodies come out of refrigerated storage?

In their case, it serves as a potent antibacterial to prevent unpleasant things happening before the person's funeral, and also to produce an (artificial) pink skin colour instead of the natural grey-blue. Suffice to say the process gets the fluid around to most areas.

You might have to use some kind of dialysis-like process of filtering and re-oxygenating the blood.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

As long as H2S will let go of hemoglobin. CO won't.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

I do believe that the exact sort of questions you're posing are why this whole thing is in the "consideration" stage

Okay let's talk hypothetical if the science actually comes in 25-50 years.

There was a discussion mentioning Hypersleep/stasis/ hibernation for Space Travel from applications in SciFi films this Summer that we can continue since this is an 'in the news' article that prompted this thread.
The question is really Is it worth it to slow human living or to speed up propulsion in space travel? Or both?

 

[Zachary Smith]

In all honesty, I'm less interested in suspended animation in terms of use for space travel than I am in it for other applications. I 'm unlikely in the extreme to ever travel in space and, if someone were to be dispatched on a 50 year trip to somewhere, I ain't gonna live to see them get there.

That said, I could see a practical use for suspended animation even for "short trips" like say round trip to Mars. Even if you're in suspended animation for six months out and six months back, that's a year's worth of groceries you don't have to carry. Assuming suspension is safe and reliable, you could plan a journey to Mars that has boots on the ground for three weeks, a few days set-up on departure and a few days wind down on return and therefore outfit the crew with say 6 weeks worth of supplies over the course of a mission that lasted a year or more real time.

As far as using suspended animation to go to other star systems, unless we can approach near light speeds, it's just not likely to ever be worth it. If you had a scenario like that of my dear friends, the Robinson family, and you could theoretically achieve maybe 90% of light speed and there fore get to Alpha Centauri (assuming any reason in the universe to GO to Alpha Centauri--I hear it's an absolutely DREADFUL place) in 8 or 10 years, then, yes, perhaps there's SOME merit to it. Taking LONG trips that last dozens or hundreds of years seems like it would be pointless in terms of interest to anyone EXCEPT those on the voyage. As such, I think it might be hard for anyone to ever secure funding.

MY interest in suspended animation, particularly of the sort described in the article above, is more in terms of preservation or even "time travel" after a fashion. We already have people purchasing cryogenics options to try to be "restored" to life at some point when medical technology can allow it. Frankly, I think it's a con because the freezing process does so much damage to the body that, assuming life COULD be restored, there'd probably be so much brain damage that even if the structure could be restored, the identity and memories of the person would likely be lost or irrepairably damaged. Then you've got the serious cons, like the Ted Williams frozen head deal, where I think it's gonna be a LOOONNNng old time before we're able to grow ENTIRELY NEW BODIES for severed heads restored to life--if EVER (of course Ted's frozen head being beaten with a baseball bat didn't exactly UP his chances of a successful resurrection somewhere down the line.

This process though, as described, does NO damage to the body. In theory, a completely HEALTHY individual could be suspended and stored, perhaps almost indefinitely. Say I'm bored with modern life and I want to see how things are going in 200 years. Off I go into suspended animation. You bet, there'd probably be a hell of a learning curve for me when I woke up, but still, it would certainly be interesting. Say I wanted to be fabulously wealthy and I have just enough money to purchase a suspended animation plan and some seed money for investment. Well, I make my investments and go into SA, cutting my expenses to zero until such time as my finances mature. I go to sleep next Monday and wake up 30 years later a healthy, wealthy man (assuming that my investments were sound, stayed ahead of inflation and that the world economy didn't tank in the time I was napping). I could even see how a corporation might offer a PLAN, whereby a client turns over his assets to be managed and invested and nurtured by the company to pay for the suspended animation and guarantee the client a certain return upon awakening, permitting of course that the corporation get a proper share.

I don't think suspended animation will ever be totally common-place--say, those of us like myself who despise winter napping through til the warm months come around again, but it seems like it could, if it is developed, impact on society in significant and unexpected ways. That was the kind of speculation I wanted to invite when I started the thread. Suspended animation for space travel is but a single possible application.

 

[John Picard]

The one problem I see is how this will affect ligaments and muscle tissue. Aren't coma patients and those who are bedridden "exercised" by therapists to minimize the amount of atrophy? So if you place a space traveler in suspended animation and then awaken him, won't he need a bit of therapy in order to walk, use his arms, or even sit upright?

 

[Zachary Smith]

^^
I would think NOT due to that fact that the way the suspended animation process being described actually halts all metabolic activity, which would include those processes that cause degeneration of tissues. Comatose people and those who are bedridden are physically inactive but still functioning biologically and so degenerative processes can accrue.

You do present another interesting point. Given the method of inducing suspended animation, it would absolutely be necessary to reduce the core temperature of the subject in order to make certain no anaerobic bacteria was able to overwhelm the body while all other functions are suspended. Cooling to near freezing would greatly reduce ALL biological activity (not just that of the subject) as well as preserve the integrity of tissues and muscles.

 

[John Picard]

^^ OK. I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on the InterWeb; however, I don't know enough about tendons and ligaments to know if reduced cellular activity will prevent them from atrophying. I'm just throwing out ideas of "what if".

 

[Zachary Smith]

^^ OK. I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on the InterWeb; however, I don't know enough about tendons and ligaments to know if reduced cellular activity will prevent them from atrophying. I'm just throwing out ideas of "what if".

I AM a doctor (DC) and it seems to me that if ALL activity is suspended, including at the cellular level, there should be no atrophying. While it's true muscles actually begin to atrophy within hours if inactive, it seems with NO cellular activity, there'd be no mechanism to promote atrophy.

It's important to get trauma patients up and moving ASAP following an injury (the old idea of "stay in bed til your well" was totally wrong) and one of the reasons is that cellular activity produces waste products which can damage tissues if not removed. Sure, the arterial system has that nice big ol'heart pumping away to bring in the oxygenated blood and nutrients but the poor ol' VENOUS system relies on muscular movement to carry away the waste products. One of the consequences of reduced activity is venous stasis, which can result in blood clots and all kinds of nasties.

Again though, with no cellular activity, I can't think of why there'd be any atrophy.

Incidentally, I don't think there IS much atrophy in tendons and ligaments due to inactivity--it's the muscles which atrophy. Tendons attach muscle to bone and ligament hold bones together.

 

[John Picard]

^^ OK. I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on the InterWeb; however, I don't know enough about tendons and ligaments to know if reduced cellular activity will prevent them from atrophying. I'm just throwing out ideas of "what if".

I AM a doctor (DC) and it seems to me that if ALL activity is suspended, including at the cellular level, there should be no atrophying. While it's true muscles actually begin to atrophy within hours if inactive, it seems with NO cellular activity, there'd be no mechanism to promote atrophy.

It's important to get trauma patients up and moving ASAP following an injury (the old idea of "stay in bed til your well" was totally wrong) and one of the reasons is that cellular activity produces waste products which can damage tissues if not removed. Sure, the arterial system has that nice big ol'heart pumping away to bring in the oxygenated blood and nutrients but the poor ol' VENOUS system relies on muscular movement to carry away the waste products. One of the consequences of reduced activity is venous stasis, which can result in blood clots and all kinds of nasties.

Again though, with no cellular activity, I can't think of why there'd be any atrophy.

Incidentally, I don't think there IS much atrophy in tendons and ligaments due to inactivity--it's the muscles which atrophy. Tendons attach muscle to bone and ligament hold bones together.

Yep, I know you're a doctor (although the haters consider you a Quackopractor). I thought the ligaments and tendons had a role in moving arms, legs, feet, hands, fingers, etc.

Anyway, here's another issue -- bed sores. Even if all cellular activity is slowed, wouldn't there be a chance bed sores could develop? I spent almost 10 days in the hospital after a modified RPLND and even though I got up and "exercised" as much as possible, I still had a sore develop on the heel of my right foot.