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Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it

Saw Soul Hunter again tonight and one thing this episode does well is plant the seeds that Sinclair is Valen very early. Of course this being the first season we don't know any of that yet, but when the Soul Hunter says "They're using you" or Delenn's development that she was a Satai on the Gray Council and the Minbari were right about him, it does give some interesting backstory to the character after you know what that character will become.

As for Born to the Purple, still like G'Kar's expressions and both ambassadors saying "Don't give away the homeworld" but this is one episode I might have a change of opinion on. It wasn't as good as the first time around. I find most of the lovey dovey stuff kind of boring in shows anyway and most of the first half of this one was exactly that.
 
Season Five With Ivanova: No Lochley (hallelujah!). Ivanova, grieving the loss of Marcus, falls in love with another ill-fated long haired Brit in Byron. Lyta is one of the followers secretly in love with him from afar. When Byron scrags himself, Ivanova is once again heart-broken, and Lyta takes over in his name as she did in the show.
 
I did have something to ask that is unrelated to the DVDs though. Does anyone remember when the Babylon Podcast interviewed Claudia Christian in 2006? Well, I heard that interview last night and one thing came up that made me curious. She mentioned she was watching all the episodes to do a book (I guess it's a bit of an autobiographical thing) and the reason my I got curious was the news this week that she was going to rewatch the series for the first time. I know two years is a while, but I wish I could rewatch the series for the first time twice. That would be awesome. ;)
The book she was writing at the time was a B5 book for Mongoose (the people who do role playing game books) and it was never published (none of them were-another long story).

As for her watching the series twice for the first time, apparently she can do it three times: http://www.babylonpodcast.com/2009/10/03/claudia-christians-b5-screenings/

Also, it was very interesting hearing her take on why she wasn't in Season 5. Not sure how that movie turned out, but it sounded like she got screwed. They say the show is over, she takes on another project, and the show isn't over. If there was one missed opportunity from the JMS interview, it was asking about why Christian didn't return for Season 5 and getting his side of the story.
He's told it, in great detail online and then again in Volume 11 of the script books. The absolute bare minimum Cliff's Notes version:
-The cast was asked to sign a one-month extension of the option on their services while WB and TNT negotiated. Everybody but Claudia did. Effectively, she was a free agent once the option expired in mid-June.
-The deal was struck very close to the deadline. Claudia was offered a contract along with the rest of the cast. She refused to sign it so she wasn't in season 5.

There are other things that the two sides might dispute but those are verifiable facts.

Also, I wonder how Season 5 would have been different had Ivanova still been there. Evidently there was a storyline regarding her and Byron, so maybe it was for the best. Still, it is interesting that everyone came back and she was the only one who had an "issue" (Or falling out) with the final season.

Yes, it's no secret that in the original storyline had Ivanova as the one romantically involved with Byron with Lyta just a devoted follower. Ivanova would also have taken over Sheridan's functions and gotten out of C&C quite a bit more.
ETA: Oops, missed that Mr. Light had already covered most of that.

The 'issue' (or falling out) is reportedly over the time off issue that both sides talk about. JMS says that she wanted some episodes off with pay and wanted it as part of her contract which would have effectively given her a per-episode raise which would have had ramifications effecting everybody else's contracts. She claims never to have asked for a raise, does say she wanted time off but I've never heard her address the 'in writing' part.

As for issues, there was some insecurity on the part of some of the cast members because of the different residuals payment schedule in the new contract because the SAG rules between first-run syndication (the first four seasons) and basic cable (which TNT is on) are different. That wasn't something that could be individually negotiated, it was part of their Guild Basic Minimum Agreement but I understand that a number of them simply didn't understand and did feel pressured over the contracts needing to be signed at the last minute.

Yep... Truth is a three-edged sword indeed. (my side, your side, and the actual truth)
Yes, but the truth *is* part of that and can be arrived at by examining the facts.

Jan
 
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Saw Soul Hunter again tonight and one thing this episode does well is plant the seeds that Sinclair is Valen very early. Of course this being the first season we don't know any of that yet, but when the Soul Hunter says "They're using you" or Delenn's development that she was a Satai on the Gray Council and the Minbari were right about him, it does give some interesting backstory to the character after you know what that character will become.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the twist that Sinclair was Valen wasn't yet conceived this early in the story. If I'm not mistaken, that particular twist was something JMS thought up during the first season. Since 'Soul Hunter' was one of the first produced episodes, he hadn't thought of it yet. But it does fit in retrospect.
 
I think he was always supposed to have the soul of Valen I believe, so it's not a total retcon. Besides, the bit with Kosh's memory from 'The Gathering' pre-dates 'Soul Hunter'. Though I'm not certain if that was added in after the fact or was merely "restored" for the Special Edition.
 
Saw Soul Hunter again tonight and one thing this episode does well is plant the seeds that Sinclair is Valen very early. Of course this being the first season we don't know any of that yet, but when the Soul Hunter says "They're using you" or Delenn's development that she was a Satai on the Gray Council and the Minbari were right about him, it does give some interesting backstory to the character after you know what that character will become.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the twist that Sinclair was Valen wasn't yet conceived this early in the story. If I'm not mistaken, that particular twist was something JMS thought up during the first season. Since 'Soul Hunter' was one of the first produced episodes, he hadn't thought of it yet. But it does fit in retrospect.

Well, one thing I'm looking for in my second run through are those hints of foreshadowing towards future events, and I had watched the reveal of Valen earlier in the day and they were showing clips from this episode. It does indeed work well.
 
I think he was always supposed to have the soul of Valen I believe, so it's not a total retcon. Besides, the bit with Kosh's memory from 'The Gathering' pre-dates 'Soul Hunter'. Though I'm not certain if that was added in after the fact or was merely "restored" for the Special Edition.

You mean the Entil'zah Valen line? I know it wasn't in the original version of the pilot, but I'm not sure if it was cut from the script or a new addition by JMS for the special edition.
 
I imagine Jan "keeper of every draft of every script ever written" could probably enlighten us on that point. ;)
Failing that, from a purely logical point of view, why else would Kosh open his encounter suit to shake Sinclair's hand unless he thought he knew him already? It couldn't be because he telepathically recognised Valen's "soul" because that wasn't Sinclair standing there, it only looked like him. So whatever possessed him to risk exposure, it was based purely on Sinclair's appearance.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the twist that Sinclair was Valen wasn't yet conceived this early in the story. If I'm not mistaken, that particular twist was something JMS thought up during the first season. Since 'Soul Hunter' was one of the first produced episodes, he hadn't thought of it yet. But it does fit in retrospect.
In the outline that was published in Volume 15 of the script books, it was Sinclair and Delenn's son that would have become the messianic figure, at least in the present. It does seem that the Sinclair becoming Valen aspect was one that was concieved of at some point during the first season

Something that's interesting to note in rewatching the series is just how things do end up fitting retroactively. JMS seems to have written or arranged the writing to keep options open. There were some excellent examples of that in the introduction he wrote for the "Babylon Squared" script that pertained to Sinclair and how he had to outline "War Without End". For instance:
This meant mapping out both “Babylon Squared” and
“War Without End” at the same time, in considerable detail, despite the fact
that they would air four years apart. On its own that was not too difficult a
task...but there was always the possibility that something could go wrong during
the four years between those two episodes. Actors might choose to leave, there
could be accidents, there’s no way of knowing what could happen. So for each
key scene there had to be an alternate flip-side scene that could be dropped into​
place to fill the gap as precisely as if it had been meant that way all along.

Jan
 
downloaded the pilot on XBL, (I remember watching it when it first aired), i think i'm gonna pick up the first season DVDs, and did anyone else think that that alien creature's environment suit looked like something out of Appleseed?
 
There were some excellent examples of that in the introduction he wrote for the "Babylon Squared" script that pertained to Sinclair and how he had to outline "War Without End". For instance:
While that's sensible planning (frankly, JMS had so many cast, money, and cancellation related difficulties it's remarkable the series is as complete and novelistic as it is), the whole bit with Sinclair aging suddenly in "War Without End" does come off as a trifle contrived.
 
"Parliament" is actually my favorite ep from the first half of the first season, though others would probably go with something else. It was just so fun... and refreshing to see the vast improvement in writing and acting and makeup.

The improvements in production values are certainly reassuring, but the writing of the episode doesn't make it my favorite of the year (I've aired my grievances elsewhere, so I won't be redundant here). My favorite would probably be Chrysalis or Babylon Squared, but those are probably the more conventional choices.

Harvey

I know I'm quoting a post from a few months ago but why didn't you like Parliament. Did it have something to do with the end with Sinclair showing off all the religions on earth and what I felt might have come across as a superiority complex (The other races seemed to have one common religion while Earth had various). Other than that, I still like this episode as the second "great" episode (After Midnight) of the series.

I also saw Mind War again tonight and loved the hints to the first ones. I really really loved G'Kar's dialoge with Cathrine (Who was still hot by the way and I wish had stayed, but of course she couldn't :( ) about us being like ants not wanting to be stepped on, at least in the perspective of the First Ones. Really does bring a lot more to that scene.

Also, I started thinking about what happened to Talia and her relationship with Ironheart. Things just don't really add up.
 
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I dislike how high the series elevates the importance of humans in the universe, especially in that episode.

For all the attention the major alien races (Minbari, Narn, Centauri) earn over the course of the series, their depiction is rather monolithic. All the Minbari dress the same, all Minbari architecture is the same, etc. The Centauri palace on Narn is exactly the same as the Centauri palace on Centauri Prime. Much of this is due to budgetary constraints, of course, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Diversity for the Minbari comes down to three castes for their entire species!

The ending makes me groan almost as much as Delenn's line about how humans are special because "humans build communities." Please. But that's just my two cents.
 
If I'm not mistaken, [the Valen] twist was something JMS thought up during the first season. Since 'Soul Hunter' was one of the first produced episodes, he hadn't thought of it yet. But it does fit in retrospect.

The original idea was the Soul Hunter was referring to the Minbari's plan to have Delenn transform herself in the chrysalis so she could pair up with Sinclair and conceive a child that would rebuild their race.

I think he was always supposed to have the soul of Valen I believe, so it's not a total retcon. Besides, the bit with Kosh's memory from 'The Gathering' pre-dates 'Soul Hunter'. Though I'm not certain if that was added in after the fact or was merely "restored" for the Special Edition.

You mean the Entil'zah Valen line? I know it wasn't in the original version of the pilot, but I'm not sure if it was cut from the script or a new addition by JMS for the special edition.

No, that line was not in the original script.

the whole bit with Sinclair aging suddenly in "War Without End" does come off as a trifle contrived.

The aging actually *was* planned from the beginning. It's in the arc outline that was in Volume 15. Both Sinclair & his son age fast because of the time effects.
 
I don't remember the rapid-aging in the outline, but it's been months since I cracked open Volume 15. Still, I agree with Kegg. It feels contrived. What's the point of it besides lining up with Babylon Squared?
 
the whole bit with Sinclair aging suddenly in "War Without End" does come off as a trifle contrived.

The aging actually *was* planned from the beginning. It's in the arc outline that was in Volume 15. Both Sinclair & his son age fast because of the time effects.

I thought the original idea was that the events take place many years later, and that's why he's old? Before Sinclair bowed out of the series and it was decided therefore the events couldn't be part of the series finale.

You'd know more of that than me, obviously, but that was honestly my impression.
 
The ending makes me groan almost as much as Delenn's line about how humans are special because "humans build communities." Please. But that's just my two cents.

While I find that a nice sentiment in context, It tends to make me think of how human also love to tear down and extinguish communities.
 
I don't remember the rapid-aging in the outline, but it's been months since I cracked open Volume 15. Still, I agree with Kegg. It feels contrived. What's the point of it besides lining up with Babylon Squared?

Well the way it was presented in the episode was that Sinclair wouldn't be able to make the trip forward in time after Babylon 4 was dropped off 1000 years back because that would kill him, like the guy in Babylon Squared that died of old age. Marcus mentions it being a one-way trip because of the aging that would happen, and Sinclair says "that's why I didn't want Garibaldi along".

As for the point in the original outline, it's that Sinclair's son ages so fast that he's an adult but without having gone through any of the emotional processes of growing up.

the whole bit with Sinclair aging suddenly in "War Without End" does come off as a trifle contrived.

The aging actually *was* planned from the beginning. It's in the arc outline that was in Volume 15. Both Sinclair & his son age fast because of the time effects.

I thought the original idea was that the events take place many years later, and that's why he's old? Before Sinclair bowed out of the series and it was decided therefore the events couldn't be part of the series finale.

You'd know more of that than me, obviously, but that was honestly my impression.

I think Joe was playing with the idea both ways - either having Sinclair age rapidly or have Sinclair come back from 20 years later. But in the outline, it's aging from the time effects.
 
I dislike how high the series elevates the importance of humans in the universe, especially in that episode.

That wasn't the point. The point was about Sinclair's own attitudes about what he considered to be important about human beliefs. Had someone else been given that task then they may well have just done holy communion or the Buddhist/Jewish/Muslim equivalent.

As for all the other worlds only have one religion, also not true. G'Kar named at least two other Narn belief systems (G'Lann & Na'Kili if memory serves) and background info written by Ditillio spells out that most of the League races have at least three major belief systems with distinct subcultures.

For all the attention the major alien races (Minbari, Narn, Centauri) earn over the course of the series, their depiction is rather monolithic. All the Minbari dress the same, all Minbari architecture is the same, etc.
Not true, on several counts. There are three very distinct styles of Minbari dress, one for each of the Castes. The Religious Caste are mostly wearing light coloured robes, the Warriors darker coloured clothes with studs and heavier material while the Workers have padded, reddy/orange coloured clothes in a more utilitarian style.
There's also a distinct difference between the architecture in Yedor, Tuzanor and the Temple of Varenni. One is mostly single large crystal spires with a blue tint, the other a more elaborately carved looked with a mostly green tint and the latter being very rough hewn, circular and made of rock, rather than crystal.

The Centauri palace on Narn is exactly the same as the Centauri palace on Centauri Prime. Much of this is due to budgetary constraints, of course, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Firstly, the fact that the INTERIOR of the Centauri seat of power on Narn was made-up the look like the Royal Palace was explicitly stated as a stunt to please the Emperor when he arrived. On the outside it was still a red, blocky Narn building, nothing at all like the Palace on Centauri Prime.

Diversity for the Minbari comes down to three castes for their entire species!
They're an old race with a declining population and have been a united people for over 1000 years. Still, it's established that there are many clans within each of the castes and that they don't all pull in the same direction, even within their own caste. The Wind Swords being the most prominent example as the warlike extremists. Even so, the uniting of all the castes and clans was something specifically done by Valen to stop the clans fighting each other. Also, to be fair, we've seen very little of the inner workings Minbari at a normal "civilian" level. All we've really seen is the various leaders and a whole bunch of civil servants.

The ending makes me groan almost as much as Delenn's line about how humans are special because "humans build communities." Please. But that's just my two cents.
Well, how do we know that this isn't such a rare trait among alien species? We take it for granted because humanity is all we know, so there's no way to make a comparison. Plus of course, that was only Delenn's perspective. G'Kar as I recall thought that Humans & Narns had more in common than he originally thought after reading Yeats. Londo had yet another perspective.
 
What can I say. Changed my mind.

As for all the other worlds only have one religion, also not true. G'Kar named at least two other Narn belief systems (G'Lann & Na'Kili if memory serves) and background info written by Ditillio spells out that most of the League races have at least three major belief systems with distinct subcultures.

Religions that can only be found in Ditillio's notes don't count. He was off the show by the third season and that was the end of any of his contributions. His extensive writing about the races in the Non-Aligned Worlds is interesting, but ultimately irrelevent to the back ground aliens whose highest point of on-screen development was the very on-the-nose bit about Drazi infighting. You mention alternative Narn belief systems, but the differences between these were rarely mentioned nor explored on the series.

Not true, on several counts. There are three very distinct styles of Minbari dress, one for each of the Castes. The Religious Caste are mostly wearing light coloured robes, the Warriors darker coloured clothes with studs and heavier material while the Workers have padded, reddy/orange coloured clothes in a more utilitarian style.

There's also a distinct difference between the architecture in Yedor, Tuzanor and the Temple of Varenni. One is mostly single large crystal spires with a blue tint, the other a more elaborately carved looked with a mostly green tint and the latter being very rough hewn, circular and made of rock, rather than crystal.

I can see more diversity in architecture walking down my block, and there aren't any houses here older than fifty years. Your point about Minbari dress is well made. A quick Google search quickly confirms there was more variation in dress than I had remembered. Although, apparently not that much variation in dress since the time of Valen, apparently. The point about there being no variation in Narn dress still stands.

Firstly, the fact that the INTERIOR of the Centauri seat of power on Narn was made-up the look like the Royal Palace was explicitly stated as a stunt to please the Emperor when he arrived. On the outside it was still a red, blocky Narn building, nothing at all like the Palace on Centauri Prime.

That was a cheat to re-use the set, as admitted by JMS. Thus the line about budgetary constraints in my original post, although, in the show's defense, JMS came up with a rather clever cheat in this case.

They're an old race with a declining population and have been a united people for over 1000 years. Still, it's established that there are many clans within each of the castes and that they don't all pull in the same direction, even within their own caste. The Wind Swords being the most prominent example as the warlike extremists. Even so, the uniting of all the castes and clans was something specifically done by Valen to stop the clans fighting each other. Also, to be fair, we've seen very little of the inner workings Minbari at a normal "civilian" level. All we've really seen is the various leaders and a whole bunch of civil servants.

It's a fair point that we never saw a wide cross-section of Minbari (which makes it impossible to critique the Centauri, when I stop to think about it, because we saw so little of their society outside of Emperors and Ambassadors), although we got a good look at their civilization in the episodes dealing with the Civil War in season four. And in those episodes I don't see the diversity of a real, living society.

Well, how do we know that this isn't such a rare trait among alien species? We take it for granted because humanity is all we know, so there's no way to make a comparison. Plus of course, that was only Delenn's perspective. G'Kar as I recall thought that Humans & Narns had more in common than he originally thought after reading Yeats. Londo had yet another perspective.

For one, Delenn's assesment of humanity in that short speech is too simplistic. Humanity pushed to build the Babylon station. But they strove to broker a peace because they had been decimated militarily, and can probably be blamed for the terrorist attacks that destroyed the first three Babylon stations. Just as many humans fell into line behind a xenophobic dictator (Clarke, who was against building communities) as opposed him. There's no universal human trait to be found there.
 
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