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'CORRECT' OUTCOME OF KOBAYASHI MARU?

That's the only scenario you've presented where such an act wouldn't constitute genocide, because a planet full of Borg has already suffered irrevocable genocide.
Matter of option. We've seen numerous times that the Borg can become individuals again after they'd been assimilated. They are, however, a huge threat.

I'm not squeamish about genocide: I'm very firmly against it.
I would be too, if there was another way. I much prefer the act of committing genocide than being on the receiving end of it, however.

Go masturbate to 24. You're not interested in reality, you're interested in machismo doomsday self-righteous power plays.
On the contrary, I think its you who has his eyes shut and his fingers stuffed in his ears to the harsh possibilities of reality. Wiping out a planet full of people is preferable to getting wiped out one's self. Taking the option off the shelf is potential suicide, plain and simple.

Also, if you're going to be an insulting little troll, please go to TNZ and do it. This is a forum for civilized discussion, not your little tantrums.
 
That's the only scenario you've presented where such an act wouldn't constitute genocide, because a planet full of Borg has already suffered irrevocable genocide.

Matter of option. We've seen numerous times that the Borg can become individuals again after they'd been assimilated.

Yes, but the Federation does not have the capacity to sever every single connection for every single drone on a planet, especially if that planet is itself surrounded by a large Borg fleet. There is no realistic way to liberate the victims from their oppressors' mind control; they've already, in other words, suffered genocide.

I'm not squeamish about genocide: I'm very firmly against it.

I would be too, if there was another way. I much prefer the act of committing genocide than being on the receiving end of it, however.

Yes, but you're wrong. Some things are so awful that survival is not worth it if you have that much blood on your hands.

Go masturbate to 24. You're not interested in reality, you're interested in machismo doomsday self-righteous power plays.

On the contrary, I think its you who has his eyes shut and his fingers stuffed in his ears to the harsh possibilities of reality.

You're the one who's been sitting there trying to make up implausible scenarios under which genocide would be necessary -- and failed.

Wiping out a planet full of people is preferable to getting wiped out one's self.

Only if you're an amoral monster.
 
Yes, but you're wrong. Some things are so awful that survival is not worth it if you have that much blood on your hands.
No, I'm not wrong. Its a matter of opinion, and you just happen to disagree. I and many other people would find the extermination of a planet to be preferable to getting wiped out ourselves. Its a simple matter of survival. If you want to die for your principles against genocide under all circumstances, that's fine, but you shouldn't ask billions of people to go down with you.
 
Go masturbate to 24. You're not interested in reality, you're interested in machismo doomsday self-righteous power plays.

C,mon guys, we are not talking reality here, we are discussing Star Trek!!....................................Now, if you want to talk about ersatz Klingons.....................................:lol:
 
If you want to die for your principles against genocide under all circumstances, that's fine, but you shouldn't ask billions of people to go down with you.

And you shouldn't ask billions to share culpability for an act of genocide just because you don't understand that some things should never be done.
 
If you want to die for your principles against genocide under all circumstances, that's fine, but you shouldn't ask billions of people to go down with you.

And you shouldn't ask billions to share culpability for an act of genocide just because you don't understand that some things should never be done.
I would say it should never be done unless it came down to a matter of us or them. Same as if someone is breaking into your house and about to kill you - under most circumstances, shooting someone is a terrible thing, but when its you or them, you're completely justified in choosing them.
 
The glassing of a planet in retaliation may have some utility (if you aggressive klingons blow up earth, we'll blow up Qo'nos) - however, the cold war showed the limits of the "Mutual Assured Distruction" - MAD - strategy, and what lies beyond them - complete destruction, completely undesirable.
I'd rather think the Cold War showed the efficacy of MAD.;)

Humanity was very lucky to survive the cold war/total nuclear annihilation.
How many times were we on the brink of destruction? Each day could be the last one - the armament race and the ever increasing stockpile of nuclear weapons, the fear/hate between the superpowers.
And fear kept the local systems in line. All's well that ends well. Without nuclear weapons (on both sides), I would not be surprised if we would have had a land war in Europe, instead of proxy conflicts on the peripheries.

I'm not sure I'd ascribe the results of decisions made by rational actors as luck, either.

Sci said:
You're describing being glad that the Federation has provisions to allow for an act of genocide far beyond the scale of the atrocities of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. I really wonder about your sense of morality there.

Would you argue that every American, British, French, and Soviet leader during the Cold War was amoral?

What was the shared purpose of France's Force d'Frappe, the UK's Resolutions and Vanguards, of the U.S. and Soviet survivable nuclear triads? Not for counterforce targeting, my friend. To hold hundreds of millions hostage, to be executed in the event that one side or the other struck first.

It seems that other than exploration, a principal purpose of planet-killing starships would be to provide the same survivable deterrent that our bombers and later SSBNs did.

The novel is set after the Dominion War, but dialogue within the novel says that the amendment was passed a very long time before 2379. As the amendment is actually called the Eminiar Amendment, the implication seems to be that the amendment was passed shortly after TOS's "A Taste of Armageddon" (2267).

Well, I can see the Council's constituents getting pissy about that. The situation in aToA was like if we had threatened Iran with atomic annihilation if they didn't return our embassy staff.

That said, essentially this "Eminiar Amendment" serves as a constitutional prohibition against even a second-strike policy. Hell, it's a no-strike policy. It's like what our deterrent would have become if Jesus had been elected president. Very unwise imo.

Prepare the Strategic Rocket Forces, comrades--the United States has stood down every bomber in the air, every SSBN in the sea, and every ICBM in Rocky Mountains.:p
 
Sorry about the rider, but wanted to add something:

Killing civilians should never be the first choice. The targeting of civilians is only appropriate when certain criteria are met:

1)the civilians are actively contributing to the enemy's war effort (RAF-style); or
2)the targeting of civilians is incidental to the overarching targeting procedure (USAAF-style); or
3)there is a reasonable belief that the use of direct force against civilians will ultimately prevent a greater number of civilian deaths that would have occurred as a result of indirect force (Hiroshima + Nagasaki-style);

or, finally

4)the reasonable belief that deterrence of a similar act by an enemy can be achieved by threatening them in kind. The credibility of a threat being dependent on the willingness to carry it out, the one threatening should be ready, on a moment's notice, to execute his threat. (Cold War style.)
 
pukeroll.gif


Go masturbate to 24. You're not interested in reality, you're interested in machismo doomsday self-righteous power plays.

You've got a warning for trolling

Also, if you're going to be an insulting little troll, please go to TNZ and do it. This is a forum for civilized discussion, not your little tantrums.

Calling somebody a troll is still flaming, hit the notification button instead. Warning for flaming.

Now both of you cool it off.
 
I'd rather think the Cold War showed the efficacy of MAD.;)

Humanity was very lucky to survive the cold war/total nuclear annihilation.
How many times were we on the brink of destruction? Each day could be the last one - the armament race and the ever increasing stockpile of nuclear weapons, the fear/hate between the superpowers.

Living with the sword of damocles above the head, knowing full well that, on a large enough time scale, nuclear conflict is inevitable.
And fear kept the local systems in line. All's well that ends well. Without nuclear weapons (on both sides), I would not be surprised if we would have had a land war in Europe, instead of proxy conflicts on the peripheries.

I'm not sure I'd ascribe the results of decisions made by rational actors as luck, either.

The cold war was not a period of stability. It was a powder keg that almost blew up a number of times. And "hot" war was no stranger during the period - the conflicts in Afganistan, Vietnam, etc etc (all incited/suported by the superpowers, a "continuation" of the cold war).

"All's well that ends well."
I agree. But the cold war didn't end well because it's such an efficient/safe political/diplomatic/military strategy. It ended well simply because of luck.
Tell me, do you think a new cold war - with China, for example - is preferable to cooperation and close ties economic and diplomatic with the superpower?

"I'm not sure I'd ascribe the results of decisions made by rational actors as luck, either."
Until the disarmament began, I would't describe the leaders of the two superpowers as "rational".

PS - I question your assuption that the annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the course of action that ensured the smallest number of casualties. Indeed, other strategies, perfectly predictable for the american administration of the time, could have avoided much of the bloodshed.
 
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My research into the two pertinent options, Operation Downfall and, even worse, the ongoing external blockade of the Japanese home islands plus the continued suppression of the transportation network on them, suggests that my counterintuitive proposition, that nuking Hiroshima was the least costly in terms of human misery, may be correct.

Documentation regarding the planning of Downfall's components, Olympic (the Kyushu landings) and Coronet (Honshu landings), shows that we would have seen continued bombardment of civilian populations, as well as--very probably--the use of chemical weapons to root out ensconced Japanese defenders. Additionally, while we likely vastly overestimated how many casualties we would suffer, but American and Commonwealth dead and wounded would have been significant. The Japanese civilian toll, if Okinawa is anything to go by, would have been ghastly.

But, who knows--they might have surrendered after a successful landing on Kyushu. It's possible.

As for the option of blockade, using ships, and particularly mines in the interisland waterways and bombers against "transportation targets" (you know, like Dresden:shifty:) the war would have continued for far longer. The economic collapse of Japan was already well underway. This, imo, would have been the most costly option of all, since the Japanese military would not have been under quite the same intensity pressure to surrender, but the civilian population would have been reduced to pure, abject starvation.

Ever seen Grave of the Fireflies? Multiply the duration times two or three. I mean, the movie made me want to kill myself after an hour and a half.

Plus, I think it's always important to remember that Japan had hundreds of thousands of soldiers in China, fighting the Chinese. Chinese military and civilian casualties and Japanese battle casualties cannot be overlooked in any analysis of whether a quicker if more violent end was preferable. Nor can the starvation of the bypassed Japanese island garrisons (Rabaul, with some 80,000 personnel iirc, had been sealed off for over two years by this point, again if iirc) be ignored in this kind of uncertain calculus.

Now, we could argue all day whether Nagasaki was necessary. I don't think it was, but I understand why it was undertaken. I'm also not convinced by the evidence of the proponents of the theory that the entry of the Soviet Union into the war was the decisive blow, not the nuclear bombings.

I think a Hiroshima Alone scenario would have been the most satisfactory of the plausible outcomes of the war.

As for the Cold War, why wouldn't we call the Cold War a time of stability? Europe had bled itself dry every thirty to fifty years for the previous... what, millennium? We're going on sixty-five years with no European war in sight. You can credit this to the unparalleled horror of World War II, but the external threat of the Soviet Union has, imo, quite a lot to do with it.

This sounds dismissive of the real tragedies produced by the Cold War in Korea and Vietnam and elsewhere, and I don't mean it to be--but a loss in Vietnam or even, perhaps, Korea was no occasion for nuclear warfare. A loss in West or East Germany would have been. And both sides knew it.

And, no, I don't think a cold war with China would be preferable to our current relationship. I have great qualms about that relationship, as I would with any close relationship between the U.S. and a dictatorial government that is feeling its way toward the edge of financial, political and demographic oblivion, but nothing that would prevent me from having warm feelings toward a people who are comprised in part, at least for now, of six hundred million Asian women.:)

Uh... also, Star Trek. Picard is better than Kirk. Right. :p
 
Does anyone remember when this thread was about the Kobayashi Maru? And not WWII, The Cold War or the glassing of a planet?
 
Myasishchev
You wrote a well-informed post, analyzing the non-nuclear options and concluding that, probably, the death toll could have been greater in these alternatives.
I will point out that many historians/other personalities disagree with your conclusions.

But what about nuclear options? USA, in 1945, had the capacity to build a nuclear bomb every three months.

If the purpose of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been to show the japanese that the americans had nuclear weapons/break japanese morals, this could have been accomplished by blowing up Mount Fuji or a japanese military base.
If this demonstration had failed to impress Japan, destroying japanese cities/indiscriminately killing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of civilians/noncombatabts would have remained an option.
USA didn't even give the japanese the chance to realise they face overwhelming power and surrender. From the start, they used nuclear weapons INTENTIONALLY to ensure the largest possible number of civilian casualties.

About the cold war - as you yourself said "All's well that ends well". But what if it doesn't end well?

A person who won the lottery could say that playing at the lottery is profitable - and from her point of view, it is. However, another person who didn't win the lottery can't say that until it managed the unlikely feat of buying the winning ticket, as well.

The cold war ended well, yes.
But a new cold war could end with Earth/humanity's almost complete destruction.

The cold war managed to ensure that no large-scale conflict started among the superpowers. But at what risk? Total destruction, for everyone - the world was almost there on a number of occasions.
A new cold war could very well take that very small step that exists between fear/hate, armaments race/stockpile, and nuclear annihilation.

That's what I mean by saying: "the cold war showed the limits of the "Mutual Assured Distruction" - MAD - strategy, and what lies beyond them - complete destruction, completely undesirable."
 
There was consideration of using the bomb as a demonstration, iirc. This could have possibly worked, but it was dismissed for a number of reasons, some reasonable and some bad. Afaik there were only three bombs expected by the end of August, and an understimation of the bomb's power--not its blast, but the radiological hazards and associated horrors were poorly understood. And of course some people were pathologically gung ho about using it. Plus there's the desire to foreclose the Soviets from extending their occupation over Korea and China--we only got to keep the RoK, even with the bombs.

Here's an unfun fact: Bockscar (the Nagasaki bomber) was a play on the name of Captain Bock, its commander. It was not, as I assumed, a pun regarding Marshall von Bock of Germany, who was killed in his car by an airplane. I cannot describe how deeply disappointed I am by this.
 
Myasishchev
"Here's an unfun fact: Bockscar (the Nagasaki bomber) was a play on the name of Captain Bock, its commander. It was not, as I assumed, a pun regarding Marshall von Bock of Germany, who was killed in his car by an airplane. I cannot describe how deeply disappointed I am by this."

A dry joke for historians, yes?:cool:

"And, no, I don't think a cold war with China would be preferable to our current relationship. I have great qualms about that relationship, as I would with any close relationship between the U.S. and a dictatorial government that is feeling its way toward the edge of financial, political and demographic oblivion"

I am curious - can you expand on the highlighted ideas? The prevalent opinion is that China is on its way to become one of the economic and military powerhouses of the world.
 
Slight hypbole with the "oblivion" thing, I guess, but...

Briefly, imo China has severe structural problems that will put enormous strains on it in the next few decades, and may even prevent it from taking its rightful place as a great power in the near future (that is, prior to 2050).

Namely, these problems are, in ascending order of hazard:

1)The culutre of corruption, particularly in government contracts, that manifests in a one-party system, and the general inefficiencies of having a state-run economy next to a free market one.
2)Regional tensions between the still-rural, still-poor west and the increasingly-urban, increasingly-wealthy east. My understanding is that China is not as nationally consolidated as it would like to appear, as well.
3)Class tensions between the winners and losers of the transformation to a free market.
4)Political tensions arising from the continued hegemony of the CCP and the ascent of a middle class.
5)A banking system on the brink, perhaps worse off than ours.
6)An increasingly borderline ecology, which will especially impact the subsistence farmers that still make up a significant portion of the population. Illness caused by pollution, of course, is already a tremendous problem.
7)The skewed male-female results of encouraged abortion, sex identification techniques, and a tradition of son preference will be playing themselves out over the next twenty years or longer. The aging population problem is going to be an issue too, but at least China'll be in good company on that. ;)

Additionally, the independence movement in the RoC (Taiwan) remains a dangerous wild card for the foreseeable future. The KMT may have won the last elections, but the PPP is still a major force, although split on the independence issue. I don't count this as an obstacle because I personally don't think we'll see a PRC government irrational enough to attempt a forcible reunification. These aren't Romulans after all.:p
 
There was consideration of using the bomb as a demonstration, iirc. This could have possibly worked, but it was dismissed for a number of reasons, some reasonable and some bad. Afaik there were only three bombs expected by the end of August, and an understimation of the bomb's power--not its blast, but the radiological hazards and associated horrors were poorly understood. And of course some people were pathologically gung ho about using it. Plus there's the desire to foreclose the Soviets from extending their occupation over Korea and China--we only got to keep the RoK, even with the bombs.

Here's an unfun fact: Bockscar (the Nagasaki bomber) was a play on the name of Captain Bock, its commander. It was not, as I assumed, a pun regarding Marshall von Bock of Germany, who was killed in his car by an airplane. I cannot describe how deeply disappointed I am by this.

I think you're overlooking the fact that the Japanese had NO IDEA what the hell had happened to Hiroshima or Nagasaki until AFTER they surrendered. It was widely assumed that the Americans had produced some type of new weapon, but they had no idea what or how it worked, only that it worked VERY quickly, and that it was capable of demolishing entire cities. The favorite theory among the military was that it was a new type of long-range bomber (based on their mostly-correct intelligence) that had been secretly mass produced in gigantic quantities, and they assumed Hiroshima had been simply Dresdenned to death. But the possibility of total destruction gave the Emperor an excuse to surrender gracefully and Japan could end the war with its honor (relatively) intact.

On the other hand, the Soviets knew exactly what had happened to those cities, probably before the Americans did. That was the whole point: to end the war before the Russians--having declared war on Japan only days earlier--had a chance to land troops on the Japanese mainland. Had the war ended two months later, neither of your options would be relevant; the Soviets--who were no stranger to brutal wars of attrition against an implacable enemy--would have occupied and eventually broken Japan and reduced it to another Warsaw pact country. Arguably, Fat Boy and Little Man did Japan the immense favor of sparing them from becoming a Soviet satellite.


How would this work in the Trekiverse? The only thing that comes close is the little matter of the invasion of Cardassia, possibly invoking General Order 24 as the deployment of a Genesis Device on the Dominion Homeworld, just to convince them to surrender before the Klingons could get to Cardassia. This would imply (basically) the destruction of an entire species, ostensibly to spare the Cardassians from Klingon occupation (ouch!) which would eventually lead to Cardassia joining the Federation and cheating the Klingons of gaining a strategic foothold in the Bajor sector.

It wouldn't be in line with Federation policy, but there are conservative elements in Starfleet who just might try it. Nechayev, for example, and Ross in some of his darker moods.
 
I'm not gonna read all of the above, I'm just going to reply to the original poster, so sorry if this is repeating a previous point:

The Kobayashi Maru test has little-to-nothing to do with whether the Captain enters The Neutral Zone. Yes, they should go in, because it is Starfleet's duty to render aid to all those who require it. (This is why a cadet failed for not entering the zone)

The 'test' is that, once you enter, you are vastly out-gunned, and must either die fighting, or escape and lose the Maru. This is why the Kobayashi Maru is a test to see how a cadet deals with a no-win situation.

The idea that cadets could take the test more than once (Kirk took it three times, didn't he?) always bothered me, as I thought a) cadets weren't supposed to know what the test was, and b) once you've dealt with the scenario, repeating it won't yield 'true' results.

However, the act of repeating the test until you win (meaning rescue yourself and the Kobayashi Maru, which, without cheating, is impossible) is, in itself, a reaction to the no-win scenario, so I guess it still counts as an 'answer.'
 
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