Post nBSG sci-fi sex and Star Trek

[DevilEyes]

^ What's wrong with that?

Nothing at all!

I just don't think we should pretend it's there for some other reason. Integrating the titillation into the plot rather than presenting it as something completely independent of the plot or character (as Seven's skintight catsuit was) doesn't mean it's any less intentionally titillating, just better integrated.

So you agree that there is nothing wrong with it being arousing, or titillating, if you will? Then what is your point? Gratuitous means that it is there only to titillate, and has no purpose for the plot or the characterization, and just sticks out there as it is not integrated in the plot, which always makes it look a bit silly and cheap.

 

[Kegg]

Gratuitous means that it is there only to titillate, and has no purpose for the plot or the characterization,

However, the plot may be there simply to provide the titillation, rather than the titillation growing organically from a plot idea. Somebody thinks 'Inara with a hot woman! Hot!', and then the writers make it happen. It's really the same idea as completely gratuituous sexual material, it's just better integrated.

 

[RandyS]

Memo: It's not 2003 anymore.

At least say 'strip down to their underwear and make out until conveinently interrupted by another girl so we can see her strip too' or something. The B&B regime is long, long dead and not really worth mocking when discussing the future of Trek.

Decon rubdowns were so stupid they should be mocked whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Agreed, but then the same should be said for the entirety of New Galactica.

 

[DevilEyes]

Memo: It's not 2003 anymore.

At least say 'strip down to their underwear and make out until conveinently interrupted by another girl so we can see her strip too' or something. The B&B regime is long, long dead and not really worth mocking when discussing the future of Trek.

Decon rubdowns were so stupid they should be mocked whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Agreed, but then the same should be said for the entirety of New Galactica.

Only if one really wants to say something stupid.

 

[Michael]

Agreed, but then the same should be said for the entirety of New Galactica.

Only if one really wants to say something stupid.

Ouch! You're right, of course.

 

[Arpy]

Tut tut, if you don't like nBSG, get out of this thread. Or prepare an intelligent and respectful counter opinion relating to the themes in this thread.

As for sex for the fun, the rightness, of it being "gratuitous", then you could say that for anything. Jokes between Spock and Bones are out. Conflict between aliens too - after all, how titillating it is, the possibility of interstellar war that will likely kill billions. And we've dipped into that well with Klingons and Romulans and Cardassians and Tholians and Talarians and Jem Hadar and Gorn and Breen and so on over the course of, what, a century in-universe?

But like I said, sex for the right reasons isn't really found in entertainment nearly as much as for wrong reasons or even for neutral easy reasons and that makes it rare and interesting. How good can it be? Tell me, sci-fi writer, if you dare.

And watch viewer if you dare. I wonder if the true "geeks" in the sci-fi audience aren't holding the genre back b/c they don't get as much "physical intimacy" in its myriad forms as general audiences, and if general audiences aren't holding exploring the unknown possibilities of healthy relationships (and specifically to this thread sexual ones) back b/c they, because we all, have become unsatisfied neurotics about what was supposed to be the most natural thing in the universe. I think we're bad at relationships and in denial about sex so in art they have to be dysfunctional and it verboten.

 

[SilentP]

And watch viewer if you dare. I wonder if the true "geeks" in the sci-fi audience aren't holding the genre back b/c they don't get as much "physical intimacy" in its myriad forms as general audiences, and if general audiences aren't holding exploring the unknown possibilities of healthy relationships (and specifically to this thread sexual ones) back b/c they, because we all, have become unsatisfied neurotics about what was supposed to be the most natural thing in the universe. I think we're bad at relationships and in denial about sex so in art they have to be dysfunctional and it verboten.

Maybe the medium should educate these 'true "geeks"' you speak of how to engage in normal relationships then?

 

[JarodRussell]

I don't care for sex scenes in movies. They are never important to the story, and I have sex anyway. What I don't have in my life are car chases, fire fights, space battes. That's what I want to see to be entertained.

 

[DevilEyes]

I don't care for sex scenes in movies. They are never important to the story, and I have sex anyway. What I don't have in my life are car chases, fire fights, space battes. That's what I want to see to be entertained.

Movies should not have any dialogue, either. We certainly have enough of those in our lives!

 

[Kegg]

I think the issue shouldn't come down to gratuity, just entertainment. Sex scenes and general sexiness should preferably be well integrated into the narrative and entertaining to watch. Like the action scenes full of 'splosions and shooting up stuff.

because we all, have become unsatisfied neurotics about what was supposed to be the most natural thing in the universe. I think we're bad at relationships and in denial about sex so in art they have to be dysfunctional and it verboten.

There's an element of truth in this (and I'd certainly implicate myself in the negative aspect of the observation); which is why I think some sci-fi just shows us the sexiness completely independent of any relationships. Like, again, Seven of Nine's skintight catsuit. The one nobody ever observes or comments on but I'm sure many spent a good time leering at.

 

[JarodRussell]

I don't care for sex scenes in movies. They are never important to the story, and I have sex anyway. What I don't have in my life are car chases, fire fights, space battes. That's what I want to see to be entertained.

Movies should not have any dialogue, either. We certainly have enough of those in our lives!

I think you're not getting it, but I don't know what to say.

 

[DevilEyes]

I don't care for sex scenes in movies. They are never important to the story, and I have sex anyway. What I don't have in my life are car chases, fire fights, space battes. That's what I want to see to be entertained.

Movies should not have any dialogue, either. We certainly have enough of those in our lives!

I think you're not getting it, but I don't know what to say.

I think you are not getting it.

 

[JarodRussell]

I get you were completely over-exaggerating with that claim. And you didn't get it, because dialogue is important to a story. Sex scenes are not. Action scenes are also not important to the story, but in comparison to sex scenes, they show you stuff that you normally would not be able to experience. Or have you ever been in a car chase through New York central park trying to stop a subway with a bomb aboard?

 

[DevilEyes]

I get you were completely over-exaggerating with that claim. And you didn't get it, because dialogue is important to a story. Sex scenes are not. Action scenes are also not important to the story,

Sex scenes and action scenes can be unimportant to the story when the writer is just throwing them in as fanservice or because he/she just finds it cool or for whatever reason, but they are not integrated into the story. You can say exactly the same thing about dialogue - in fact, you'll often find lines and entire conversations that are not important to the story at all, they are there just because the writer thinks they are fun or cool or help flesh out a character or convey some other message he wants to get across, but which has nothing at all to do with the plot.

On the other hand, sex scenes, action scenes and dialogue can also be integrated and important to the story.

but in comparison to sex scenes, they show you stuff that you normally would not be able to experience. Or have you ever been in a car chase through New York central park trying to stop a subway with a bomb aboard?

You don't get how absurd it is to claim that fiction should only show things that 'we can't experience ourselves'. You're basically asking for complete escapism. You may like that, but I hope you don't really believe that this preference of yours should be a rule for all fiction. See, many people prefer stories that relate to their lives, and would rather watch an interaction between the characters that they can identify with (be it sex, romance, friendship, family... all that stuff that is "not important to the story" ) than just car chases and space battles or slaying monsters or whatever. If you made a show entirely out of the latter, I would find it boring beyond belief. Fiction - even SF - needs to have a degree of realism, something to relate to, characters you can care about, and I can't care about them if they don't seem like real people to some extent - even if they are aliens or androids. And real people, for the most part, tend to have sex or want to have sex or at least be interested in it. It's an important part of life and an important part of people's relationships.

 

[Kegg]

I get you were completely over-exaggerating with that claim. And you didn't get it, because dialogue is important to a story. Sex scenes are not. Action scenes are also not important to the story, but in comparison to sex scenes, they show you stuff that you normally would not be able to experience. Or have you ever been in a car chase through New York central park trying to stop a subway with a bomb aboard?

Ever had sex with a beautiful celebrity?

Well?

 

[DevilEyes]

I get you were completely over-exaggerating with that claim. And you didn't get it, because dialogue is important to a story. Sex scenes are not. Action scenes are also not important to the story, but in comparison to sex scenes, they show you stuff that you normally would not be able to experience. Or have you ever been in a car chase through New York central park trying to stop a subway with a bomb aboard?

Ever had sex with a beautiful celebrity?

Well?

Or with an alien?

Or an android?

 

[JarodRussell]

Or an android?

Yep, great point, because we've never seen that particular sex scene.

 

[Browncoat]

I don't care for sex scenes in movies. They are never important to the story, and I have sex anyway. What I don't have in my life are car chases, fire fights, space battes. That's what I want to see to be entertained.

There are plenty of movies that are little more than that. Whether any of them qualify as good SF, though, well, is highly debatable.

 

[DevilEyes]

Or an android?

Yep, great point, because we've never seen that particular sex scene.

Which one? There were plenty of sex scenes between humans and humanoid robots/androids (or between the latter) in various movies and TV shows... BSG in particular.

 

[Kegg]

Or an android?

Yep, great point, because we've never seen that particular sex scene.

That depends how one defines 'sex scene'. We do see a fairly sexy scene involving an android in 'The Naked Now'.

Yeah, again, this is the difficulty of discussing sexuality on shows with a PG rating, to a large extent it operates under tell, don't show.