Endgame

[I am not Spock]

Maybe the Future-Janeway timeline WAS the Prime Timeline, and the one in which Janeway gets home early is a new altered timeline? That would mean that Nemesis is also in an alternate timeline, explaining several things about that film.

I like this theory!

 

[I am not Spock]

The TOS defiant from the Tholian Web traveled back in time sideways to the Mirror Archer/Enterprise Universe.

Wibbly wobbly timey whimey.

Yeah...time travel works however the hell the writers want it to work in a given episode/film.

DS9 "Little Green Men" established that time travel is easy and controllable. You just need to fly a shuttle full of some magic substance through a nuclear explosion. After that one it's a wonder that people didn't start travelling through time as often as they travel through space.

That, or just fly around a sun really, really fast (Tomorrow Is Yesterday, The Voyage Home). It's a wonder the Borg or the Dominion didn't just do this, and wipe out the humans while we were in the Bronze Age.

 

[JarodRussell]

I'm sure this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find anything.

Old Janeway's selfish time travel, just because she had been too stupid... would the Temporal Integrity Commission introduced in the show really just sit back and let that happen? What she did fucks up the development of the entire galaxy for 25 years. All the first contacts Voyager would have made are now not getting made, and the Borg are simply wiped out.

If not the guys from the 29th century, surely the Temporal Investigators from DS9 would kick her ass, and certainly wouldn't let her get promoted to Admiral, wouldn't they?

Unless everything Admiral Janeway did in "Endgame" was a better outcome than what they had.

For example: what if going back and saving Seven, Chakotay & Tuvok brings more advantages to the Federation/Starfleet than the future we saw? Bringing home the EMH sooner would allow Starfleet medical to advance their knowledge and technology years sooner.

But that is a pretty egoistic view (just as egoistic as Future Janeway's actually). If there's indeed a time police, they would, or should, screw them, no matter what. They violated the timeline. Future Janeway destroyed the lifes of billions of people when she went back in time. That's a crime. Who is she to change the life of billions just because of a few friends?

What about the Delta Quadrant? She deprived the species in the Delta Quadrant from making contact with Voyager. She changed the fate of the entire galaxy. And in Star Trek, that is not her decision. That is no one's decision to make. I would consider that a crime. And that's why there is such a ship as the Relativity in the Trek universe.

So why didn't she go back in time to prevent Voyager getting lost in the Delta Quadrant in the first place?

Why didn't she go back in time to prevent the Dominion War?

Questions like these are the reason why time travel from the future to change the past is always wrong and should never be allowed.


Kirk's time travel in The Voyage Home is something entirely different. He did not change the past. If you believe the scriptwriters, then Kirk returned to the same universe he came from. He simply fullfilled what had already happened, the took two whales and one human from the past and brought them into his own present. He didn't bring anything from the future into the past, like Janeway did.

It would have been wrong if, 25 years later, Kirk had decided to go back in time and destroy the Probe in Earth orbit. Because that's the future changing the past, and he would have taken away 25 years of billions of lives everywhere in the galaxy.

It would have been wrong had he prevented the extinction of whales back in 1986, because then he would have changed the lives of billions on Earth, and subsequently for the whole galaxy for 300 years.

Maybe the Future-Janeway timeline WAS the Prime Timeline, and the one in which Janeway gets home early is a new altered timeline? That would mean that Nemesis is also in an alternate timeline, explaining several things about that film.

I like this theory!

That's also my opinion.

 

[Frazzled]

That's EXACTLY the tape I need to make for myself.

Poor Robert Beltran - by all accounts he was pleased to go out with a bang, yet here we are discussing chopping those bits out

I haven't been following the rest of the comments on this thread properly (over my poor befuddled head plus I'm not very familiar with The Voyager Home) but I have trouble reconciling a future Janeway with blatantly rewriting history. I'd far prefer for them to have thought of something else to get home with, the possibilities are many.

 

[Brit]

But that is a pretty egoistic view (just as egoistic as Future Janeway's actually). If there's indeed a time police, they would, or should, screw them, no matter what. They violated the timeline. Future Janeway destroyed the lifes of billions of people when she went back in time. That's a crime. Who is she to change the life of billions just because of a few friends?

I could say the same of your view.


There is nothing seen on Voyager to even suggest in the tiniest of possibilities that Janeway destroyed the future of billions of people unless you are counting the Borg, I am pretty sure she caused billions of them to die and by doing so, saved billions upon billions of lives in the process.

Any change in anyone’s future is in all likelihood, was one for the better.

Friends and family are what make life worth living, and I pity anyone that doesn’t have the deep connection that makes one feel that they would do anything for those friends and family, because you can feel their pain.

By your standard then Jake Sisko should be charged with the murder of Jadzia Dax, because she was obviously alive in “The Visitor” time line and because he brought his father back she was obviously dead. Actually apparently there was no Dominion War in “The Visitor” time line, so you can also charge him with war mongering, and the murder of that war’s victims.

Finally it is also obvious that the Federation had no problem with it because they gave her a promotion and enough authority to give Jean Luc Picard orders, and Picard had no reservations in following them.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are you misunderstanding the term "murder" in this context. The demolishment of a unique timeline is the demolishment of an infinite amount of space, matter and people with distinct memories and souls and life experiences, even if the process by which this is done, creates nearly exact duplicates of the demolished universe and people living in it until their murder.

 

[RyuRoots]

At any rate, it's a selfish viewpoint. For her to think that any good that may have come from the longer journey was massively outweighed by the people on a single ship is extremely arrogant. Besides which, it's kind of childish that she wants to go back and give Voyager the easy way out in the past since it was HER call to stay in the DQ for (what they thought at the beginning of Caretaker) 70 years. Living with your decisions is a part of being an adult. For as much as Janeway prattled on about her precious holy Starfleet morals, it's hilarious how she violates the prime directive/temporal prime directive and likely some laws because she wasn't happy with the results of her decisions.

 

[Brit]

Are you misunderstanding the term "murder" in this context. The demolishment of a unique timeline is the demolishment of an infinite amount of space, matter and people with distinct memories and souls and life experiences, even if the process by which this is done, creates nearly exact duplicates of the demolished universe and people living in it until their murder.

Who is to say it was demolished, time can be like a tree that branches at pivotal points and that Admiral Janeway didn't save her own time line but another.

I have read a lot of science fiction time travel stories and actually I really believe that is the only theory that works for the art of storytelling.

It's like the plot of James Hogan's "The Proteus Operation" and that it's probably impossible for a person to travel either into the past or the future of his own time line, but will slip into another.

Never the less, the difference between Jake and Admiral Janeway is only in the perception of the viewer and the fact that "The Visitor" is considered one of the greatest Star Trek stores told and "Endgame" is not, or that Captain Sisko does no wrong and Captain Janeway does no right, and to a lot of female Voyager fans that look at these arguments, the only difference is that Sisko is male and Janeway is female.

Brit

 

[kimc]

That's EXACTLY the tape I need to make for myself.

Poor Robert Beltran - by all accounts he was pleased to go out with a bang, yet here we are discussing chopping those bits out

I don't know why he would consider C/7 going out with a bang.

I have trouble reconciling a future Janeway with blatantly rewriting history. I'd far prefer for them to have thought of something else to get home with, the possibilities are many.

I totally agree!

 

[Deckerd]

Maybe 'good' outcomes are looked on as counterproductive for the time cops to clamp down on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Good is relative. Any good future is going to lead to the birth of some new space Hitler somewhere because the law of the conservation of assholes is unavoidable.

 

[RyuRoots]

that Captain Sisko does no wrong and Captain Janeway does no right, and to a lot of female Voyager fans that look at these arguments, the only difference is that Sisko is male and Janeway is female.Brit

As a male fan, I can say with certainty that that's a crock of BS. Sisko has his flaws, but they make him more real, more human, and a lot of people like that. Janeway's flaws mostly come down to her being poorly/inconsistently written. Believe me, gender isn't an issue.

I don't know why he would consider C/7 going out with a bang.

For that matter, I pity Jeri Ryan. I so enjoyed the character of Seven, it pained me to see her reduced to "Chakotay's woman" in the finale.

Good is relative. Any good future is going to lead to the birth of some new space Hitler somewhere because the law of the conservation of assholes is unavoidable.

Exactly. A good outcome for the Voyager crew potentially means a horrible outcome for others. There's no way to guage exactly what changes occurred, since Voyager was the only part we saw, but there's the butterfly effect. And this was certainly larger than a butterfly flapping its wings, these changes.

 

[Guy Gardener]

When Janeway is involved, it should be called the Mothra effect.

This could have all been avoided if she just would have said that she was travelling to the history of a similar mirror universe, but they didn't, they left it vague with the rules up in the air.

If their was no danger of the universe being demolished why was Kim ordered to arrest her?

If there was danger of the universe being demolished why did he let her go after he arrested her?

I loved it how Bev said 'If Jean Luc Picard wants one last adventure, then we'll give it to him." even if they were technically invading klingon space at the time and there was a bout a 90 percent chance that Picard was a babbling loon having an episode.

Janeway's last hurrah was either suicide or unicide, and in either cae it was entirely selfish and she should have known better.

Do you think that miral is going to grow up to be exactly the same person if she's brought up on earth rather than Voyager? And she was a key player with Janeway's plan to frack up her own birth.

All the character's were mental because the writing was too lazy to explain how they were sane.

I'm pretty sure that in timeless, you know, the first draft of endgame, that they said "Is it working? have we sent the message back?" - "I don't think so, otherwise we would have ceased to exist and couldn't be having this conversation."

 

[USS Excelsior]

I don't think either timelines are the Prime timeline. The timecops didn't bother to stop Future Harry Kim from sending that temporal message to 7 to prevent the death of the Voyager crew which initially was supposed to happen.

 

[RyuRoots]

Frankly, I was never a fan of the 29th-century time cops plotline. Partially because since you introduce them, there are so many incidents where they'd stop ALL the ST mains from dicking around in the future/past, but didn't.

 

[Wes-Cutting]

Frankly, I was never a fan of the 29th-century time cops plotline. Partially because since you introduce them, there are so many incidents where they'd stop ALL the ST mains from dicking around in the future/past, but didn't.

I have to agree with this, although the time cops were an interesting idea for a few episodes overall they are too compicated to figure out. Why stop this event and not the other one.

If the Voyager writers had thought of something like the temporal cold war in this instance I think I would have liked it better than the time cop idea. It would have been easier to explain then trying to overlook the TCs when it suits the writting team.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't think either timelines are the Prime timeline. The timecops didn't bother to stop Future Harry Kim from sending that temporal message to 7 to prevent the death of the Voyager crew which initially was supposed to happen.

From relativity
BRAXTON: Well of course I am, you pedantic drone. The only way for me, for us, to recover is to obliterate Voyager from the timeline. That way, none of the events that caused this illness will have occurred.
JANEWAY: What events?
BRAXTON: Thirty years of exile on twentieth century Earth. The temporal inversion in the Takara sector! Three violations that I had to repair.

from timeless
EMH: Fifteen years?
KIM: Give or take a few weeks.
EMH: Where are we?
CHAKOTAY: In the Takara sector, just outside the Alpha quadrant.
EMH: The crew?
KIM: Except for us, dead.

A surprising piece fo continuity easily missed or forgotten.

 

[exodus]

I'm sure this has already been discussed, but I couldn't find anything.

Old Janeway's selfish time travel, just because she had been too stupid... would the Temporal Integrity Commission introduced in the show really just sit back and let that happen? What she did fucks up the development of the entire galaxy for 25 years. All the first contacts Voyager would have made are now not getting made, and the Borg are simply wiped out.

If not the guys from the 29th century, surely the Temporal Investigators from DS9 would kick her ass, and certainly wouldn't let her get promoted to Admiral, wouldn't they?

Unless everything Admiral Janeway did in "Endgame" was a better outcome than what they had.

For example: what if going back and saving Seven, Chakotay & Tuvok brings more advantages to the Federation/Starfleet than the future we saw? Bringing home the EMH sooner would allow Starfleet medical to advance their knowledge and technology years sooner.

But that is a pretty egoistic view (just as egoistic as Future Janeway's actually). If there's indeed a time police, they would, or should, screw them, no matter what. They violated the timeline. Future Janeway destroyed the lifes of billions of people when she went back in time. That's a crime. Who is she to change the life of billions just because of a few friends?

What about the Delta Quadrant? She deprived the species in the Delta Quadrant from making contact with Voyager. She changed the fate of the entire galaxy. And in Star Trek, that is not her decision. That is no one's decision to make. I would consider that a crime. And that's why there is such a ship as the Relativity in the Trek universe.

Trek doesn't write itself, it's up to the whim of the writers. The same writers that created "Relitivity" and the time cops to begin with. So knowing that, if they felt that Janeway was destroying billions(a theory within the context of the show that isn't mentioned or proven) they would have stopped her. They didn't, just like they didn't stop Henry Starling in "Future's End" because what he started benefited the future.

So if Adm. Janeway is a criminal, then so is the crew of the Relitivity, Capt. Kim, the Doc, Barclay, Adm. Paris, the Voyager crew in our present and anybody else who knew. Hard to believe all these folks allowed genocide to happen.

"Timeless" all ready showed altering the timeline doesn't have that effect. If it did, billions would have all ready died bringing Voyager home in "Future's End". Your proof is "Nemesis". If things changed for the worst, then the ending would have looked like "Yesterday's Enterprise".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Being accused of breaking a law is different from being apprehended for breaking that same law which is different from being tried in a court of law for breaking that same law, which is different to being found guilty of breaking that same law which is different to being sentenced for breaking that same law.

Jim Kirk should have been stufffed in an isocell and shot into the depths of some ocean, but instead, for the crime of grand theft starship they gave himi the very same starhip he stole to joyride about the galaxy in.

 

[nx1701g]

I don't think either timelines are the Prime timeline. The timecops didn't bother to stop Future Harry Kim from sending that temporal message to 7 to prevent the death of the Voyager crew which initially was supposed to happen.

The timecops were involved with that. If you listen to dialogue in Timeless they say that the Relativity and Captain Braxton had to clean up the mess Voyager left in the Takara Sector. Voyager crashed in the Takara Sector in Timeless.

Frankly, I was never a fan of the 29th-century time cops plotline. Partially because since you introduce them, there are so many incidents where they'd stop ALL the ST mains from dicking around in the future/past, but didn't.

Wasn't this sort of touched upon in the Enterprise Temporal Cold War plotline? I remember scenes where Daniels informed Captain Archer that there were multiple groups that were all going after their own agendas. What's to say that the Federation isn't picking and choosing what they pursue and what they don't?