The Chin'toka System

[All Seeing Eye]

or however you spell it.

I'm interested to know just what was so important about it? to me it just seemed a useless star system with a useless planet in it.

Why were the Dominion so determined to defend it? was that system really worth all those weapon platforms? What did the allies do with the system once they had taken it? what did they gain from having that star system at all?

That's one thing I never understood about the war, if the planet in that system was important i'd understand the need to take it but from what I can gather they took it just for the sake of taking it and it proved absolutely fruitless in the grand scheme of the war.

 

[Jono]

Well, given that Bajor was all of a day and a half from Cardassia Prime the Chin'toka system wasn't needed as a "road to Cardassia". My guess would be that it was hoped that through Chin'toka the allies could drive in behind Cardassia to either at the military infrastructure deeper in Cardassian space. It also would force the Dominion to restructure its lines and reassign more ships to bottle up the Federation Alliance, weaking their offensive strength.

As for what was in the system, we have no idea. They didn't mention any shipyards (nor did we see any) but the planets could have had weapons plants, training facilities, rich in mineral resources. The only thing is the value aside from taking a piece of enemy turf isn't explained.

In the end the Chin'toka system proved to not provide much advantage. It might have if the Federation Alliance didn't lose the initiative due to the lose of the wormhole...which in itself makes no sense. It also should be mentioned that we did only see a small portion of the entire war, as far as we know nothing really worthwhile came out of Chin'toka (apart from AR-558 if that was in Chin'toka as the script suggested). The Alliance might have been able to use it to strike behind enemy lines but given it didn't involve Deep Space 9 or the Defiant it wasn't mentioned.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

I believe it was a combination of the sensor array we saw in AR-558, which would allow the Federation to monitor Dominion movements, as well as a foothold in Cardassian space, which was a sort of 'we're here, your enemies have managed to get their foot in the door - kick us out if you can.'

 

[Timo]

The sensor array would only be of worth for the Dominion - the Cardassians would have built their empire without the benefit of this station, and would probably lose little if they lost the relay.

Yet we know that Cardassians went on a conquest spree because they coveted raw materials. They took Bajor roughly half a century before they were forced to give it up again - accounts vary on the exact date. They probably took other systems in a similar manner, at roughly the same time, as the conquest spree seems to have occurred or at least peaked during the lifetime of Gul Madred of "Chain of Command" fame.

And Chin'toka may have been the second most important of their conquests. Or perhaps even the most important, considering that Bajor had already run dry by the time it was ceded to the Feds (or to the wolves, really, but the Feds were the first of those).

I wonder what native Chin'tokans look like...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jono]

I believe it was a combination of the sensor array we saw in AR-558, which would allow the Federation to monitor Dominion movements, as well as a foothold in Cardassian space, which was a sort of 'we're here, your enemies have managed to get their foot in the door - kick us out if you can.'

It was a communications array, the value would have been in signals intelligence if the Federation Alliance could use it to tap into Dominion transmissions.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

If it was even inhabited. An uninhabited world where there is no resistance to your strip-mining, etc. is worth something if you're sinking resources as well into a world like Bajor where there IS so much resistance for every bit you take out of it. At least, that's the most utilitarian Cardassian view.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I think the system was on the way to Cardassia and you can't leave it behind your lines when moving to Cardassia prime. They would harass your supply lines, use it as a fuel depot to launch small sorties into your territory etc. It's like a medieval castle, you can't advance until you take it.

Or, for example, if Japan, China, or Russia wanted to invade US from the West, they would need to eliminate Hawaii before they can attack mainland. You don't leave a major system at your back.

During the war, Breen launched an atack on Earth and were destroyed down to the last ship because they left ohter systems intact. They must have known there is no going back.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think the system was on the way to Cardassia and you can't leave it behind your lines when moving to Cardassia prime. They would harass your supply lines, use it as a fuel depot to launch small sorties into your territory etc. It's like a medieval castle, you can't advance until you take it.

Or, for example, if Japan, China, or Russia wanted to invade US from the West, they would need to eliminate Hawaii before they can attack mainland. You don't leave a major system at your back.

During the war, Breen launched an atack on Earth and were destroyed down to the last ship because they left ohter systems intact. They must have known there is no going back.

That is a VERY good explanation with a lot of sound basis in reality. You could also add as a comparison the Pacific campaign in World War II.

Do you mind if I possibly make use of this (along with my own explanation) for fanfic?

 

[EmperorTiberius]

I think the system was on the way to Cardassia and you can't leave it behind your lines when moving to Cardassia prime. They would harass your supply lines, use it as a fuel depot to launch small sorties into your territory etc. It's like a medieval castle, you can't advance until you take it.

Or, for example, if Japan, China, or Russia wanted to invade US from the West, they would need to eliminate Hawaii before they can attack mainland. You don't leave a major system at your back.

During the war, Breen launched an atack on Earth and were destroyed down to the last ship because they left ohter systems intact. They must have known there is no going back.

That is a VERY good explanation with a lot of sound basis in reality. You could also add as a comparison the Pacific campaign in World War II.

Do you mind if I possibly make use of this (along with my own explanation) for fanfic?

Of course not, good luck with your fanfick.

I was also going to mention the Pacific campaign but I wasn't sure about the details, I know there was "island hopping", but didn't know the details. I think they captured key islands prior to planned invasion of Japan...

 

[EmperorTiberius]

^Just don't forget, there is a map of it in "When it Rains", look at it on TreCore; Chin'toka wasn't on the direct path to Cardassia from Starbase 375 and DS9, which is from where the final invasion was launched if I'm not mistaken, but it was in the way if invasion was launched from the core of the Federation.

This doesn't devalue Chintoka's importance at all. They still opened up that second front which was a threat enough for the Dominion to commit ships there, therefore weakening the front in the Bajoran sector. Allies could have also done it to widen the front in order to protect the main fleet's advance. Imagine if the Allies advanced towards Cardassia, and a huge Dominion fleet swung "down" from Chintoka and took DS9 and Starbase 375? With no support, the invasion fleet would have had to return to Federation space or get destroyed like the Breen were.

Of course, there are precedents for this too in WWII (since the whole thing was taken from that war and I read an interview where they used old war maps to draw those LCARS maps on the show): During D-Day invasion, for example, they made sure German navy doesn't interfere by isolating the invasion path by laying mines, bombing German ports, air surveillance, ship patrols and hunt for submarines etc... And then, when the Allies landed, hitler didn't commit the German forces immediately because he believed that it's just a faint and that invasion would take place from another direction.

There is plenty of material for you to "strategize" when writing your fanfic

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Very cool!

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Very cool!

Agreed! Nice analysis, Emperor.

 

[BolianAuthor]

I think the system was on the way to Cardassia and you can't leave it behind your lines when moving to Cardassia prime. They would harass your supply lines, use it as a fuel depot to launch small sorties into your territory etc. It's like a medieval castle, you can't advance until you take it.

Or, for example, if Japan, China, or Russia wanted to invade US from the West, they would need to eliminate Hawaii before they can attack mainland. You don't leave a major system at your back.

During the war, Breen launched an atack on Earth and were destroyed down to the last ship because they left ohter systems intact. They must have known there is no going back.

That is a VERY good explanation with a lot of sound basis in reality. You could also add as a comparison the Pacific campaign in World War II.

Do you mind if I possibly make use of this (along with my own explanation) for fanfic?

I'm gonna have to watch these episodes again, but the way I always saw it, was that Chin'toka was the closest system to the actual Cardassian Star System, and that it was some kind of staging area for Cardassian troops and fleet movements. Didn't Damar or Weyoun also state that Chin'toka was the testing ground for the new orbital weapons platforms? IIRC, that might have been what prompted Sisko and Martok to lead the charge to take them out?

Again, I need to watch the eps again, but that's what I thought the situation was.

 

[Jono]

I'm gonna have to watch these episodes again, but the way I always saw it, was that Chin'toka was the closest system to the actual Cardassian Star System, and that it was some kind of staging area for Cardassian troops and fleet movements. Didn't Damar or Weyoun also state that Chin'toka was the testing ground for the new orbital weapons platforms? IIRC, that might have been what prompted Sisko and Martok to lead the charge to take them out?

Again, I need to watch the eps again, but that's what I thought the situation was.

The Federation Alliance didn't know about the OWP when they picked Chin'toka as a target. They picked it as it was weakly defended with only 5 squadrons of Jem'Hadar attack ships. They only found out about the platforms just before they launched the attack.

 

[Timo]

If it was even inhabited. An uninhabited world where there is no resistance to your strip-mining, etc. is worth something if you're sinking resources as well into a world like Bajor where there IS so much resistance for every bit you take out of it. At least, that's the most utilitarian Cardassian view.

Actually, I'd wish to disagree on this premise. At Bajor, the Cardassians went to the extra trouble of building an orbital refinery that required the use of local slave labor, despite the known risks. Surface mines and labor camps also relied on a local workforce. It might well be that a planet with readily available labor would be a better catch than an empty one.

On the subject of which attack path was the best, I'd like to refer to the Star Charts booklet. A lot of the stuff there is speculation and sometimes outdated, even erroneous. Yet the layout of the Cardassian battlefield is more or less directly derived from onscreen maps, which are reproduced on pages 48-49. Bajor would indeed be the closest system to Cardassia Prime, while Chin'toka would represent an indirect approach.

All sorts of strategic rationales could be built on those maps, though. An attack from Cardassia directly to Earth would go through Bajor or the Badlands - but might hit strong fortifications soon thereafter, perhaps existing ever since the last UFP/Cardassian unpleasantness. So a roundabout maneuver would help Dominion gain ground, and drive a wedge between the Feds and their Klingon allies. Conversely, the Feds and Klingons could strike back at that sweeping arm of the Dominion "Hail Mary" attack and cut it in the middle if Chin'toka were taken.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

I think the system was on the way to Cardassia and you can't leave it behind your lines when moving to Cardassia prime. They would harass your supply lines, use it as a fuel depot to launch small sorties into your territory etc. It's like a medieval castle, you can't advance until you take it.

Or, for example, if Japan, China, or Russia wanted to invade US from the West, they would need to eliminate Hawaii before they can attack mainland. You don't leave a major system at your back.

Why? We left Rabaul, Truk, and a number of other extremely major Japanese bases at our backs during the island hopping campaign. After crippling the IJN and degrading the IJNAAF, it would have been supremely wasteful to invade these islands, especially Rabaul, when it was much easier to blockade and bypass them. Even the reconquest of the Phillippines is considered in some circles to be pointless (and not just because the atomic bomb and the B-29 made all of the efforts in the Pacific somewhat pointless). Personally, it's just another item on the page-long laundry list of reasons I have for MacArthur being the Devil.

Edit: now, of course we didn't ignore these bases. Truk suffered probably the heaviest bombardment of any place that wasn't physically invaded during the war, and Rabaul was continually suppressed by bombing missions during the New Guinean campaign (even more pointless than the Phillipines, thanks Mac!), but they did not need to be occupied, because they were ruined and shut off from supply. My main point is that space, like the sea, is big enough that planets, like islands, can be isolated and should be bypassed if possible.

During the war, Breen launched an atack on Earth and were destroyed down to the last ship because they left ohter systems intact. They must have known there is no going back.

If Breens have cloaks--and this is a disputed point, but iirc there's something in TNG that said so--there's no reason they couldn't have scattered and escaped, assuming they weren't destroyed during the Battle of Earth itself.

 

[Timo]

Hmm... When Weyoun, Thot Gor and Damar discuss the raid, the latter needles the former on the fact that "so few of your ships survived". So clearly there were a number of survivors (or Damar would have used even harsher sarcasm), but also heavy losses.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[nx1701g]

If Breens have cloaks--and this is a disputed point, but iirc there's something in TNG that said so--there's no reason they couldn't have scattered and escaped, assuming they weren't destroyed during the Battle of Earth itself.

It is mentioned in the episode Hero Worship. The Breen Warships have cloaking devices and, according to Tuvok in Scorpion, their ships are partially biological in origin.

 

[Timo]

This could merely be what our heroes believe, not what Breen technology really has achieved. The Breen are something of a mystery to Feds and Klingons alike, so Picard, Worf, Tuvok and the like might not really know whether the Breen have cloaks or not.

Honest mistakes in interpreting the intelligence, or then deliberate disinformation fed by the Breen, could be responsible for the belief that there are invisible Breen starships around. OTOH, if Breen ships really rely extensively on biotech, this might explain why they seem to exist in a number of different sizes, all of which have the same shape...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ribbons69]

The only thing that bothers me about the whole "route to Cardassia" thing,or whatever,is that it always strikes me as two dimensional.If chin'toka is somewhere twixt Deep Spave Nine and Cardassia in a straight line,how difficult would it be to go over it,or below it? Could the Seventh fleet for instance,not go "down" from DS9 for a day at maximum warp,then scoot (not normally a word used to describe warp travel I expect) across then back up again?