• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The DS9 Relaunch - will it ever return to its roots again?

So have you pre-ordered from a bricks and mortar store, or are you playing a teasing game with yourself to see if anyone stocks it without your suggestion?
Ian, I shouldn't have to special-order a new release Star Trek book. No one should. Backlist, something that came out a year ago? Yeah, I can see that. But a book that should be out this month or last? Anyone should be able to walk into Barnes & Noble or Borders and find it on the shelf. Frankly, if their corporate buyers aren't buying enough to stock the shelves, Star Trek literature has more problems than just me.

So, to answer your question, no, I haven't special-ordered The Soul Key from Borders or B&N.
 
As I said - after "Unity", the DS9 relaunch books were disjointed, they had no consistent overall planning.
Consistent with what?
Consistent with itself.
Every three books, the direction the DS9 relaunch followed changed, plot threads foreshadowed for years were delayed or abandoned, new plot threads were introduced without any build up at all (obvious example - the typhon pact).
 
^Agreed :techman:. Cliffhangers are a must if you're telling a big interconnected story. It keeps people on the edge of their seat and always wanting more.

Which is how I feel after reading Soul Key, but apparently we're jumping ahead to some future storyline instead because of events in other series which I don't read -- seems a bit strange. Why can't the DS9 books just be themselves? Is Pocket looking to Marvel Comics for cross-selling ideas?

With regard to Amazon vs. physical shops, if your only local choice is chains like Borders or Barnes & Noble, I really don't get why you'd want to support them. An indie bookstore I could understand (and then I'd expect to special order unless it was a specialty shop like Forbidden Planet), but otherwise you might as well be shopping at Amazon.

I have to confess to ordering things at a B&N near my mother's flat when I was in San Jose on holiday and wanted to get gifts for people -- in that situation it was a better choice than ordering from Amazon given how slow the US postal system is, but if you're not time constrained Amazon is just fine for when you know what you want. For me the chain bookstores are just for impulse buying.
 
Jumping in late - but found this thread interesting.

I think - fact of the matter is, there is no right answer. I've noted for a while a conscious need to avoid mentioning Bajor to avoid spoilers - something which is going to be harder now that Ezri is captaining Aventine and we're going to start seeing books there. In the past - we didn't have to worry about cross-references, because books where set at different times within the various series or afterwords - with the demise of the shows, and the birth of several successful relaunches, the need to pull things together so that there can be contemporary cultural references seems a natural decision. This doesn't mean that cross-book stories have to become then norm (they shouldn't, though Destiny was done quite well), but it will be nice to see contemporary references again (c.f. references to the Maquis in DS9 and Voyager, or the role of the Cardassians as played out in TNG and DS9) - these add elements of interest to shared fiction, and I don't blame MC for wanting to bring them all together. And I won't blame the next editor if (s)he splits them off again. At the end of the day, I would like some interesting tales of these characters we know and love (and new characters to know and love!)

Personally, I'm hoping the Ascendency war gets pushed forward - would rather NOT have characters dead / transformed / etc. and then go back and hear why - if it does get set up this way, however, I think that given the caliber of writers over the last few years, we will see some good stories, regardless of which editorial direction is taken.

That said, I would submit that a "Tales of How Sisko Manipulated me before the Ascendency War" compilation could make interesting reading and act as a nice bridge to 2382...
 
As I said - after "Unity", the DS9 relaunch books were disjointed, they had no consistent overall planning.
Consistent with what?
Consistent with itself.
Every three books, the direction the DS9 relaunch followed changed, plot threads foreshadowed for years were delayed or abandoned, new plot threads were introduced without any build up at all (obvious example - the typhon pact).
How do you know all this stuff is happening? There's no reason to assume that just because something hasn't been dealt with in the last one or two books, doesn't mean it's been it's been abandoned, it just means it wasn't in the last couple books. As for new plot threads being thrown in, I haven't really seen that. Other than the TP which was set up in A Singular Destiny, pretty much all of the plot threads I've seen in the DS9R have had some sort of build up, unless it was something like Locken or the Gateways, which were only in the one book. And as for the Typhon Pact, that's a crossover, like the Gateways books, so IMO you can't really hold the DS9R responsible for it's set up.
 
Which is how I feel after reading Soul Key, but apparently we're jumping ahead to some future storyline instead because of events in other series which I don't read -- seems a bit strange. Why can't the DS9 books just be themselves?

Well, for one thing, because their editor was laid off. Marco Palmieri and Margaret Clark are two different people with different editorial sensibilities and approaches. They weren't interchangeable parts. Give Marco's DS9 gig to Margaret and the results just wouldn't be the same. Margaret surely knew that, so I'd imagine she figured it was better to find her own way of approaching DS9 rather than try to copy Marco's.

And whoever takes over the series now will have yet another individual approach. Their DS9 won't be Marco's DS9 or Margaret's DS9. We don't know what it will be like yet -- when it will be set, what its pacing will be, what its story emphasis will be.
 
And whoever takes over the series now will have yet another individual approach. Their DS9 won't be Marco's DS9 or Margaret's DS9. We don't know what it will be like yet -- when it will be set, what its pacing will be, what its story emphasis will be.

Just as Ira Behr's DS9 wasn't the same as Michael Piller's - as Armin Shimerman has pointed out about the way the Ferengi were treated on the show, let alone any other factor. New producers (or editors) bring new things to the table - as long as we don't get the Trekkian equivalent of Bobby Ewing coming out of the shower, then let's just see what comes and enjoy it?
 
This is the first I've heard about Olivia Woods' book being delayed because it was too long.
Perhaps it was an aesthetic decision to split the book in two,however the mean-spirited part of me would say that Pocket never lost an opportunity to produce two books where one big one would do.:shifty:

Neither can I see the pressing need to integrate the DS9 books with the TNG/VOY timeline.More crossovers ahoy!
 
As I said - after "Unity", the DS9 relaunch books were disjointed, they had no consistent overall planning.
Consistent with what?
Consistent with itself.
Every three books, the direction the DS9 relaunch followed changed, plot threads foreshadowed for years were delayed or abandoned, new plot threads were introduced without any build up at all (obvious example - the typhon pact).
How do you know all this stuff is happening? There's no reason to assume that just because something hasn't been dealt with in the last one or two books, doesn't mean it's been it's been abandoned, it just means it wasn't in the last couple books.

I said that various heavily foreshadowed plot threads are heavily delayed, suspended or abandoned in my previous posts. The ascendants storyline fits perfectly - much like the dominion situation.

On the other hand, the 5 year jump in 2010 and the typhon pact are being introduced without any foreshadowing at all (in the DS9 relaunch - one should not expect the readers to have encyclopedic knowledge of trek lit). In my previous posts, I said why I think that this decision is detrimental to the DS9 relaunch.

As for why I said that the recent DS9 relaunch had no consistent planning:
"The plan for 'Worlds of DS9" was to be one-shots, to have no overall plan. This is essentially equivalent to "Worlds of DS9" having no overall plan.

Then we had a mirror universe years-long storyline (delaying the ascendants/the dominion built up stories). And, as mentioned, I'm aware of the excuse in this case, too: it was supposed to be a 2 book quick foray into the mirror universe - well, in the end, it was anything but "quick".

And now, the plan changed again to include the typhon pact.

And then there were the "Terok Nor" and "Never Ending Sacrifice" books - essentially one-shots with little connection to the DS9 relaunch."
 
This is the first I've heard about Olivia Woods' book being delayed because it was too long.

Actually it wasn't delayed; it was split in two precisely so that the delay wouldn't become even greater. Instead of making us wait an extra year for a really long book, Marco gave us part of the story on schedule (the revised schedule, anyway) and the rest of the story a year later.


Perhaps it was an aesthetic decision to split the book in two,however the mean-spirited part of me would say that Pocket never lost an opportunity to produce two books where one big one would do.:shifty:

That was John Ordover's tendency, but Marco's was the opposite: to give us two or more books' worth of material in one volume. He split Fearful Symmetry/The Soul Key in two for precisely the reason I just described. FS had already been delayed by more than a year due to the author switch, and Marco didn't want to frustrate the readers by forcing them to wait yet another year before they got any new DS9 material.

Neither can I see the pressing need to integrate the DS9 books with the TNG/VOY timeline.More crossovers ahoy!

Maybe it wasn't an absolute "need," but it was Margaret's choice as the new editor of the line. There were valid arguments in favor of both approaches, keeping the DS9 timeline where it was and jumping it forward. Neither approach is perfect, neither approach is awful. Both have drawbacks and opportunities. But Marco favored one and Margaret favored the other.
 
Which or whether,I have to say that I'm really enjoying "The soul key".I was worried that the MU/multiple Kiras would be confusing but Ms.Woods has done a very good job keeping it straight.
Also,if "The neverending sacrifice" is half as good as "Hollow men",then that too should be a crackerjack tale.Ms.Mc Cormack is an obvious fan of John LeCarre as am I.
 
I said that various heavily foreshadowed plot threads are heavily delayed, suspended or abandoned in my previous posts. The ascendants storyline fits perfectly - much like the dominion situation.
Yeah, but we got a major development in the dominion arc in Olympus Descending, which was only 2 books back. And there was a major development of the Ascendants arc in The Soul Key. Every book isn't going to deal with the same arcs, just like every episode of the show didn't deal with every single arc.
And then there were the "Terok Nor" and "Never Ending Sacrifice" books - essentially one-shots with little connection to the DS9 relaunch."
Except Terok Nor was not ever promoted as part of the Relaunch. It was promoted as a Lost Era tale from the begginning, it just happened to have some Relaunch bits in it.
 
Consistent with itself.
Every three books, the direction the DS9 relaunch followed changed, plot threads foreshadowed for years were delayed or abandoned, new plot threads were introduced without any build up at all (obvious example - the typhon pact).
How do you know all this stuff is happening? There's no reason to assume that just because something hasn't been dealt with in the last one or two books, doesn't mean it's been it's been abandoned, it just means it wasn't in the last couple books.

I said that various heavily foreshadowed plot threads are heavily delayed, suspended or abandoned in my previous posts. The ascendants storyline fits perfectly - much like the dominion situation.

On the other hand, the 5 year jump in 2010 and the typhon pact are being introduced without any foreshadowing at all (in the DS9 relaunch - one should not expect the readers to have encyclopedic knowledge of trek lit). In my previous posts, I said why I think that this decision is detrimental to the DS9 relaunch.

As for why I said that the recent DS9 relaunch had no consistent planning:
"The plan for 'Worlds of DS9" was to be one-shots, to have no overall plan. This is essentially equivalent to "Worlds of DS9" having no overall plan.

Then we had a mirror universe years-long storyline (delaying the ascendants/the dominion built up stories). And, as mentioned, I'm aware of the excuse in this case, too: it was supposed to be a 2 book quick foray into the mirror universe - well, in the end, it was anything but "quick".

And now, the plan changed again to include the typhon pact.

And then there were the "Terok Nor" and "Never Ending Sacrifice" books - essentially one-shots with little connection to the DS9 relaunch."

The DS9 relaunch started with Avatar. It then participated in two crossover series, introducing elements out of nowhere (at least certainly in the case of Gateways). It then went to the Gamma Quadrant for four standalone stories, with one developing plot running in the Alpha Quadrant.

Then, taking a break, it backtracked all the way to the beginning to tell Jake's story.

Then, taking a break from even that, it backtracked even further to tell Worf and Martok's story.

Then we got Unity.

That seems pretty disjointed to me! How is what's happened since any different?

Worlds picked up on the Cardassian stories begun by A Stitch In Time, the Andorian stuff developed through Mission: Gamma, the necessary exploration of Sisko's return, and threads on Trill, the Dominion, and Ferenginar left by the series. (Just as the series itself would tend to visit each of those cultures at least once per season.) None of those threads "came out of nowhere", but in fact many of the threads before Unity did (Gateways, Mission: Gamma standalones, LHoD having nothing to do with any of the rest of the series at all).

And Worlds layed the groundwork in at least two of the stories for the Mirror Universe saga! It was all tied together and clearly had a specific overall plan.

Not to mention, Terok Nor provided background for Fearful Symmetry, and The Never-Ending Sacrifice partially built on threads from Worlds: Cardassia, too.

In short: you're completely wrong about this. Just as DS9 had several ongoing subplots that it explored perhaps once or twice per season, the DS9 relaunch was designed from the beginning to be non-linear and varied in its storytelling methods so that it could continue to develop all of the things DS9 established. Stories on Trill, stories on Cardassia, stories in the past, stories in the mirror universe, stories using some characters and not others... it was all part of the series from the beginning.
 
So, the plan for 'Worlds of DS9" was to be one-shots, to have no overall plan.

Only someone with a severe reading comprehension problem could earnestly claim that the novels published since Unity have had no overall plan.

Worlds of DS9 quite obviously had an overall plan. Andor: Paradigm wrapped up the Andorian arc, Trill: Unjoined wrapped up the Trill/Parasite arc, and Ferenginar: Satisfaction Is Not Guaranteed wrapped up the Quark/Ro arc and some of the TV series's Ferengi arc. Meanwhile, Cardassia: The Lotus Flower continued the Oralian/Bajoran church arc while also introducing a new arc about life on Cardassia, The Dominion: Olympus Descending introduced the post-Founders Dominion arc, and Bajor: Fragments and Omens introduced the Mirror Universe arc that Olympus Descending later continued. Warpath continued it, and Fearful Symmetry and The Soul Key concluded it (from what I gather -- I haven't read the last two yet).

That's a very OBVIOUS plan. Resolving several ongoing threads, introducing new ones, and focusing on one in particular. And, sure enough, The Never-Ending Story continues the life-on-Cardassia arc, flashbacking to 2371 and then continuing into 2378.

To say that there's no plan is to either lie, not be paying attention to what you're reading, or to not understand what you're reading.

Then we had a mirror universe years-long storyline (delaying the ascendants/the dominion built up stories). And, as mentioned, I'm aware of the excuse in this case, too: it was supposed to be a 2 book quick foray into the mirror universe - well, in the end, it was anything but "quick".

Dude, that doesn't mean there's no plan. That means that they planned to focus on the Mirror Universe arc first and then the Dominion/Ascendants thing. One didn't delay the other, because the other was never intended to come in an earlier order in the first place.

And, yes, you've had to wait a few real-life years to get the MU arc resolved because of several unforeseen and uncontrollable factors. Get the fuck over it. The publishing world moves slowly, and there can be bumps.

The fans of non-tie-in literature deal with multi-year intervals between installments of series all the time. With the His Dark Materials series, years went by between the publication of Northern Lights and The Subtle Knife, and three years between The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass. Ten years went by between the publication of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone and Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows -- with intervals of one, one, one, three, two, and two years in-between novels.

With the Dark Tower series, five years went by between The Gunslinger and The Drawing of the Three, four years between Drawing and The Waste Lands, six years between The Waste Lands and Wizard and Glass, six years again between Wizard and Glass and Wolves of the Calla, and only then did one year pass between Wolves and Song of Susannah and The Dark Tower, the final two.

The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien was published in 1937, and The Lord of the Rings's first volume, The Fellowship of the Ring, was published in 1954 -- a delay of 17 years. The Adventures of Tom Bombadil was published in 1962, eight years after Fellowship. Meanwhile, The Silmarillion wasn't published until 1977 -- 23 years after Fellowship, and 40 years from the time The Hobbit was published. Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth was published in 1980, another three years. The History of Middle-Earth itself was published in 12 volumes between 1983 and 1996, with intervals of one, two, and three years between volumes. And finally, The Children of Húrin was just published in 2007 -- seventy years after The Hobbit!

That's a really extreme example, but I think it illustrates the point nicely: You can't act like a delay of three years for a book to come out is some huge, unreasonable delay that's never been heard of and expect to be taken seriously.

And then there were the "Terok Nor" and "Never Ending Sacrifice" books - essentially one-shots with little connection to the DS9 relaunch.

1. Not every novel in a series, however serialized, has to directly relate to on-going arcs.

2. Terok Nor was its own series, even if it tied into the DS9 Relaunch, and criticizing them for releasing Terok Nor makes about as much sense as criticizing them for releasing The Lost Era or Vanguard. Not every TrekLit project is about the DS9 Relaunch.

3. They're all brilliant works more than worth a read.

4. I haven't finished The Never-Ending Sacrifice, but I'd point out that a book that ends in 2378 is going to inevitably carry on the life-on-Cardassia arc begun with Cardassia: The Lotus Flower -- itself also an Una McCormack novel.

And now, the plan changed again to include the typhon pact.

I didn't agree with Margaret's decision to change gears when she inherited the DS9 Relaunch, but that is not evidence that Marco had no plan for his post-Unity novels.

As I said - after "Unity", the DS9 relaunch books were disjointed, they had no consistent overall planning.

Um, yes they did. You just didn't like them. Which is fine. But don't try to claim that your subjective evaluation of them means they had no plan.

The DS9 relaunch started with Avatar. It then participated in two crossover series, introducing elements out of nowhere (at least certainly in the case of Gateways). It then went to the Gamma Quadrant for four standalone stories, with one developing plot running in the Alpha Quadrant.

Then, taking a break, it backtracked all the way to the beginning to tell Jake's story.

Then, taking a break from even that, it backtracked even further to tell Worf and Martok's story.

Then we got Unity.

That seems pretty disjointed to me! How is what's happened since any different?

Worlds picked up on the Cardassian stories begun by A Stitch In Time, the Andorian stuff developed through Mission: Gamma, the necessary exploration of Sisko's return, and threads on Trill, the Dominion, and Ferenginar left by the series. (Just as the series itself would tend to visit each of those cultures at least once per season.) None of those threads "came out of nowhere", but in fact many of the threads before Unity did (Gateways, Mission: Gamma standalones, LHoD having nothing to do with any of the rest of the series at all).

And Worlds layed the groundwork in at least two of the stories for the Mirror Universe saga! It was all tied together and clearly had a specific overall plan.

Not to mention, Terok Nor provided background for Fearful Symmetry, and The Never-Ending Sacrifice partially built on threads from Worlds: Cardassia, too.

In short: you're completely wrong about this. Just as DS9 had several ongoing subplots that it explored perhaps once or twice per season, the DS9 relaunch was designed from the beginning to be non-linear and varied in its storytelling methods so that it could continue to develop all of the things DS9 established. Stories on Trill, stories on Cardassia, stories in the past, stories in the mirror universe, stories using some characters and not others... it was all part of the series from the beginning.

Quoted for Truth.

I don't agree with the decision to jump DS9R forward for The Typhon Pact, but to sit there and say that there was no post-Unity plan is pure bullshit.
 
I said that various heavily foreshadowed plot threads are heavily delayed, suspended or abandoned in my previous posts. The ascendants storyline fits perfectly - much like the dominion situation.
Yeah, but we got a major development in the dominion arc in Olympus Descending, which was only 2 books back. And there was a major development of the Ascendants arc in The Soul Key. Every book isn't going to deal with the same arcs, just like every episode of the show didn't deal with every single arc.
The Dominion arc was developed in "Olympus Descending" - 2 books back and how many years ago?
The Ascendants arc has been foreshadowed since "Rising son" - 6+ years back. At the earliest, a book dealing with it may be written in 2011 - and it's a rather large MAY.
 
I said that various heavily foreshadowed plot threads are heavily delayed, suspended or abandoned in my previous posts. The ascendants storyline fits perfectly - much like the dominion situation.
Yeah, but we got a major development in the dominion arc in Olympus Descending, which was only 2 books back. And there was a major development of the Ascendants arc in The Soul Key. Every book isn't going to deal with the same arcs, just like every episode of the show didn't deal with every single arc.
The Dominion arc was developed in "Olympus Descending" - 2 books back and how many years ago?
The Ascendants arc has been foreshadowed since "Rising son" - 6+ years back. At the earliest, a book dealing with it may be written in 2011 - and it's a rather large MAY.

To quote the post directly above yours:

Get the fuck over it. The publishing world moves slowly, and there can be bumps.
 
Thrawn, Sci

It's an uncontested fact that, lately, DS9 relaunch had delays and changed its editors (more than once). And it's a fact that the delays/new editor changed the direction the DS9 relaunch was headed in.

You may appeal to any rationalization you wish to claim the contrary. You may even beleive it.
And we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter.

About pre-"Unity" books - they may not be sequential, but they were part of the same larger plan. There were, indeed, a few one-shots ("The left hand of destiny"), but they were a minority.
 
To quote the post directly above yours:

Get the fuck over it. The publishing world moves slowly, and there can be bumps.

"Nice" language, Sci, Thrawn.

Tell me, do you think that the reader cares about the behind the scenes minutiae that delay/decrease the quality of the books?
I doubt it. If the final product is not to his liking, he will simply read other books/do something else.
And the DS9 relaunch sure had a lot of delays/behind the scenes problems lately.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top