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Book Rememberances...

It wasn't meant as a "everyone else does it" defense. I was simply pointing out that it isn't exclusively a Trek thing, which was what I thought you were saying.

While I never said it was, the thread being _here_ would give you valid reason for believing so. (Although, until having my foot pulled out of my mouth. loudly, I'd almost have believed it to be so.)

I don't think it's a lie so much as a looser definition of "trilogy." Words tend to get their meanings blurred over time. To some people, "trilogy" just means "a series of three books" without regard to the structure of those books. It's not lying if the user sincerely believes it's valid to use the word that way.

You lost me there, in context...

Are you saying that publishers sincerely believe their intermittent/inconsistent definition of a trilogy is correct? (As and aside: Why am I now mentally picturing a librarian who doesn't understand the Dewey Decimal System? *grin*)

Or are you saying publishers are taking advantage of people's ignorance?

Or are you saying that if people don't know or care what a trilogy is/means, that it's understandable that a publisher doesn't care?

Publishing is a business. Follow the money.

How much does a "three-part book" run now? I understand why publishers wanting to make it sound like getting you're three books for that price, when in fact you may be getting a single long book for that price (ie. Clavell's Shogun).

There's the rub for me. Truth in advertising. Be openly honest and I can make no quarrel. All I can do is choose to buy or not buy. But even then, _I_ will be making an informed decision.

Not to mention in modern Trek, it's silly to try and hide it. The vast majority of their target audience will buy it anyway. Seems to me, being up front and honest about it is a win-win.

It's obvious there are those who really don't care. Publishers won't lose them. The minority that might care when they look at the total price for what is really a single book, might deserve to know, before being parted from some of, if not all of that price.
 
You lost me there, in context...

Are you saying that publishers sincerely believe their intermittent/inconsistent definition of a trilogy is correct? (As and aside: Why am I now mentally picturing a librarian who doesn't understand the Dewey Decimal System? *grin*)

Or are you saying publishers are taking advantage of people's ignorance?

Or are you saying that if people don't know or care what a trilogy is/means, that it's understandable that a publisher doesn't care?

I'm saying that language is flexible and evolving, and just because you favor a narrow definition of a word, that doesn't mean it's the only way it can be used. I doubt very many people today know or care about the formal definition of "trilogy," so if publishers choose to employ the term in the way that carries meaning to the majority of their audience, that's not exploiting their ignorance, it's adapting to their usage. Language isn't created from the top down, but from the bottom up. The general public begins using a word in a new way, and eventually the dictionaries have to start reflecting it.



Not to mention in modern Trek, it's silly to try and hide it. The vast majority of their target audience will buy it anyway. Seems to me, being up front and honest about it is a win-win.

Do you have any idea how paranoid you sound? Nobody's trying to "hide" anything. It's just that the modern usage of the word "trilogy" goes beyond your narrow preconceptions. Just because they don't use vocabulary in exactly the same way you do doesn't mean they're trying to deceive you.
 
I'm saying that language is flexible and evolving, and just because you favor a narrow definition of a word, that doesn't mean it's the only way it can be used. I doubt very many people today know or care about the formal definition of "trilogy," so if publishers choose to employ the term in the way that carries meaning to the majority of their audience, that's not exploiting their ignorance, it's adapting to their usage. Language isn't created from the top down, but from the bottom up. The general public begins using a word in a new way, and eventually the dictionaries have to start reflecting it.

So, I was closer with the latter. And we're not talking a narrow definition, but the only definition I found to be in the dictionaries available to me.

But it is a great sounding point, until viewed in the context of "readers." And "publishers." Both of which I am sure, have heard of and probably used dictionaries, at some point in their lives. Note: I personally ascribe a certain knowledge level to both groups, due to their literacy. Publishers in particular, have to know what they are actually saying for liability purposes, if no other reason.

As to defining words based on their use by the "general public." Is that appropriate to this context? Are we talking about the "general public?" How do you define "general public?" Do you mean NBC's definition? Or a politician's? Or on the internet? Or readers? Or a specific generation?

As the post above says, apparently some internet slang has reached some dictionaries. I'd be willing to bet they are identified as slang and/or acronyms. (read: but I won't actually bet, in case I'm wrong! *grin*)

Don't you identify yourself as a writer? I'd have thought a writer would be a proponent of dictionary use?

Not to mention in modern Trek, it's silly to try and hide it. The vast majority of their target audience will buy it anyway. Seems to me, being up front and honest about it is a win-win.
Do you have any idea how paranoid you sound?

Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they are NOT out to get my money! *grin* (<--- Yeah I know, a joke older than Star Trek. But please note that my throwing "*grin's*" around in all of this is, and has been, meant to show how serious I'm not taking all of this! ...in a communication venue that doesn't translate moods and intentions well. For instance some of your comments could be construed as attempts at insults, but I choose not to take them that way until made obvious or defined as such.)

Be that as it may, you avoid the issue... Do you disagree that it would be win-win?

Nobody's trying to "hide" anything.

Bad choice of word, unintentionally indicating evil intent. When in fact to do the opposite would be just plain bad sales tactics (I am also a capitalist, so I do understand).

Read: I'm not suggesting that publishers should be made to print "You have to buy two other books to finish this story" on the appropriate covers.

It's just that the modern usage of the word "trilogy" goes beyond your narrow preconceptions.

Please define "modern usage." Does a publisher using it make it "modern usage?" Is "modern" ascribed to a specific age group? Or time frame? Does it mean in current slang (That definition not being in any of my dictionaries, can only suggest slang usage to me otherwise)

Although, I've never heard of using previously and widely accepted dictionary definitions of a word (especially in the context of literate people), being described as "narrow preconceptions" before! Is that an attempted insult? Barring elucidation, I'll choose to take it as a new phenomenon to observe. *big grin*

Just because they don't use vocabulary in exactly the same way you do doesn't mean they're trying to deceive you.
We're not debating vocabulary, we're debating a specific word and it's definition.

As another aside: I remember reading in a book about books, that a (Trek!) publisher purposely sold a single story in several parts because they weren't sure it was going to sell at all. The implication being that if the first book, (or books?) didn't sell, the end of the story would not have been published.

And in case some of your statements were actually veiled attempts at insults, I repeat in the following excerpt...

Contextual Note: I never for a moment thought this thread would change anything. It was venting, at best. Ranting at face value, I mean worst. *grin?*

--------------------------------------------

Side question: I don't "hang out" here and you identify yourself as a writer. Does any of the debate specifically affect and/or apply to your work somewhere? Could it in the future? Do you have a vested interest in this particular debate? (I freely admit I do have a vested interest... I buy books and have been caught on this by internet purchases)
 
Side question: I don't "hang out" here and you identify yourself as a writer. Does any of the debate specifically affect and/or apply to your work somewhere? Could it in the future? Do you have a vested interest in this particular debate? (I freely admit I do have a vested interest... I buy books and have been caught on this by internet purchases)

I am neither a writer nor Christopher, but I can tell you that Christopher has not written a trilogy or an entry in a trilogy, though he has written entries in miniseries.

I can also tell you that your complaint about some trilogies being just one book sliced into three is not currently valid in TrekLit. When TrekLit does a series, they make certain that each individual entry tells a complete story in its own right. The complaint USED to be valid about TrekLit... ten years ago. Not so much anymore.
 
I am neither a writer nor Christopher, but I can tell you that Christopher has not written a trilogy or an entry in a trilogy, though he has written entries in miniseries.
Okay, thanks! I rightly or (probably) wrongly detected an undercurrent that begged a clarification of motivations.

I can also tell you that your complaint about some trilogies being just one book sliced into three is not currently valid in TrekLit.

Um, actually it was more a "whine" or a "rant" or "venting" than an actual "complaint." It was also open-ended and did not specifically target Trek. But by virtue of it's placement here, that was a legitimate assumption to make! It did turn into a debate (for debate's sake, or so I thought), which I've meant in general, except where Trek is specifically mentioned.

When TrekLit does a series, they make certain that each individual entry tells a complete story in its own right.

Aha! Got you!'**** *grin* Gateway series... I'm only on book #3 (circa' 2001), but #1 & #2 certainly did not tell a complete story! In fact, your honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury... they ended on a CLIFFHANGER! [insert crowd ooh's and ah's here *grin*].

**** *big-I-am-kidding-grin*


Although it did throw me for a loop at the end of book #1. But having the same circumstances in the semi-cliffhanger at the end of #2 leads me to suspect I have a few more somewhat identical cliffhangers to look forward to, before finishing the story.

Not so much anymore.
Hmmm, so it was already fixed. That takes the wind out of my side of the debate. But we can make it work, if the opposition continues to debate the merits of a a three-parter versus a trilogy, while I switch to 'even the publishers learned and know better now, etc, etc.' *grin*
 
Truth in advertising*. Depends on if they advertise a split single book as a "Trilogy" or as a three-part book (aka: serial).

Many trilogies in literature start out as a one-off novel that proves so popular that the readership demands sequels.

In the ST lit world, "The Ashes of Eden" seems to be a one-off standalone, and then Shatner & the Reeves-Stevenses penned two more books creating a trilogy. Ultimately, there was a trilogy of trilogies.

leads me to suspect I have a few more somewhat identical cliffhangers to look forward to, before finishing the story.

Do you realise that some people actually like cliffhangers!

Why do people watch soap operas on TV? Those old b/w cliffhanger serials at the movies? They like guessing what will happen next.

It's not our fault, nor Pocket's, if you are feeling cheated or lied to.
 
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But it is a great sounding point, until viewed in the context of "readers." And "publishers." Both of which I am sure, have heard of and probably used dictionaries, at some point in their lives. Note: I personally ascribe a certain knowledge level to both groups, due to their literacy. Publishers in particular, have to know what they are actually saying for liability purposes, if no other reason.

It's linguistic elitism to insist that the only "right" usage of a word is the one written down in a dictionary. Dictionaries do not create language, they merely describe it. They are catalogs of standard usage at the time of their publication. And since language is constantly evolving, dictionaries are usually behind the curve.

Besides, the distinction you're griping about is so trivial as to be simply not worth the amount of irate verbiage you're devoting to it.


As to defining words based on their use by the "general public." Is that appropriate to this context? Are we talking about the "general public?" How do you define "general public?" Do you mean NBC's definition? Or a politician's? Or on the internet? Or readers? Or a specific generation?

The topic was one of the word choice that publishers or advertisers would use to communicate concepts to their readership. It's only logical that if you're trying to convey concepts to a particular audience, you convey them in the same terms used by said audience. I have no idea why you'd think NBC or politicians would have anything to do with that.


Don't you identify yourself as a writer? I'd have thought a writer would be a proponent of dictionary use?

I'm not saying dictionaries are useless. I'm saying that you misunderstand their purpose if you assume that they are proscriptive rather than descriptive. They are not the source of meaning, they merely catalog usage at the time of their publication. They are references for the state of the language, not laws handed down from on high.


For what it's worth, I share your distaste for trilogies that are one long story split into three. I think that each volume in a trilogy should have its own beginning and ending, its own closure; that if a story is done as a trilogy, then it should be structured to take place in three parts. But I believe that because I believe it makes for the best reading experience, not because of some kind of prescriptivist, legalist attitude about the label "trilogy" itself. A label describes a thing; it does not dictate its nature.


Be that as it may, you avoid the issue... Do you disagree that it would be win-win?

That's begging the question. I reject the initial premise of your question, that anything is being hidden, so naturally I have no answer to the invalid question of whether it would be better to "stop" hiding.


Please define "modern usage." Does a publisher using it make it "modern usage?" Is "modern" ascribed to a specific age group? Or time frame?

Language is a creation of human beings. They use it every day to communicate with one another in every situation. That's what usage is. And that usage is a living, breathing, constantly evolving thing, just like the human community that generates it. Written language is merely one facet of language; its usage is generally more formalized and less dynamic than that of spoken language, depending on the context (the written language of instant messages and texting would be an exception). It can influence spoken language but is more often influenced by it.


Although, I've never heard of using previously and widely accepted dictionary definitions of a word (especially in the context of literate people), being described as "narrow preconceptions" before! Is that an attempted insult?

Again that elitist attitude -- if people don't share your rigid assumption about the meaning of the word "trilogy," that makes them non-literate in your mind? Now that's an insult!

I daresay I qualify as "literate," and I have never in my life believed that the word "trilogy" couldn't apply to a single extended three-book tale. I may not prefer that format, but I never had a problem with the label being applied to it.


We're not debating vocabulary, we're debating a specific word and it's definition.

That's like saying "We're not debating geography, we're debating a specific mountain and its location." The latter is a subset of the former.


As another aside: I remember reading in a book about books, that a (Trek!) publisher purposely sold a single story in several parts because they weren't sure it was going to sell at all. The implication being that if the first book, (or books?) didn't sell, the end of the story would not have been published.

That's a false conclusion -- and a false premise, I believe. You're probably misremembering the fact that John Ordover favored publishing duologies because they sold better than single-part stories. But you're totally wrong to assume that the sale of part 2 of a duology would be contingent on the success of part 1. For one thing, many of these duologies were published simultaneously, both parts coming out together. A gimmick to be sure, but obviously the publication of part 2 was not dependent on the success of part 1. For another thing, a publishing schedule is locked down months in advance. Even in cases where the consecutive parts of a duology or trilogy come out in consecutive months, the publisher is still committed to meeting its release schedule. If they've scheduled a book to come out in May, if they've printed up a whole run and spent money on ads and convinced bookstores to buy the copies, then if they suddenly cancelled it in April, there'd be hell to pay. They'd lose tons of money pulping all those books, they'd have to repay the bookstores and probably pay a penalty for defaulting on their contract, etc.

The only possible circumstance where a later book in a series might not be published due to poor sales of the previous book is one where the two come out more than a year apart, because a publishing schedule is usually locked down a year to eighteen months in advance. The only case where I'm aware of that happening is with the latest William Shatner novel, Academy: Collision Course. A sequel, Trial Run, was said to be forthcoming, but apparently isn't happening due to poor sales of the first book. But Collision Course tells a complete, self-contained story, so it's not an example of the phenomenon you're talking about.

The one case where a single multipart story was broken up by a great length of time was Diane Duane's concluding Rihannsu books. She was supposed to do a duology, Swordhunt and The Empty Chair, to come out back-to-back. But she got delayed on TEC, so Swordhunt got broken up into two books in order to fill Pocket's commitment to publish two books in that month. TEC got delayed for over five years. But it still eventually came out.

So there's no deception. If an ST duology or trilogy is a single continuing story, the installments almost always come out back-to-back and are labeled as parts of a single story. The only exception was a case where the second part was unavoidably delayed.


Side question: I don't "hang out" here and you identify yourself as a writer. Does any of the debate specifically affect and/or apply to your work somewhere? Could it in the future? Do you have a vested interest in this particular debate? (I freely admit I do have a vested interest... I buy books and have been caught on this by internet purchases)

Now you're being insulting again. And quite silly. I have no vested interest in some pointless, anal-retentive quibble over the definition of the word "trilogy." There is no great amount of money to be gained or lost over whether I convince one guy on the Internet that he's wrong about the meaning of the word. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
So what Trek trilogies actually do this then? Because I'm struggling to think of any. Gateways was certainly an annoying example but that's 7 books and not 3.
 
Well, most of the Trek trilogies tell a single overarching story divided into three parts, with cliffhanger endings on the first two, but they're usually structured so that the story has three distinct phases, making each book a distinct part of the whole. For instance, in Millennium, Book 1 is mostly in the story present, Book 2 is almost entirely in a potential future, and Book 3 is jumping among different timeframes and timeless limbo. In Destiny, the main story is relatively continuous, but major changes and developments happen at the end of each book so that each part is a different phase of the story, and each book's flashbacks have a different focus. String Theory was by three different authors, so even though it was a single overall adventure, each book was a distinct and individual part in style as well as story structure.

And these trilogies came out in consecutive months, or nearly so, so it's not like the story suddenly stops and leaves you hanging for a year or more, like in some trilogies I've read. (That's part of why I gave up on the sequel trilogy to Rendezvous with Rama: not only did I dislike Gentry Lee's storytelling, but I was annoyed with the way the volumes just cut off abruptly with no resolution of any kind. I just didn't want to bother to wait a year for the rest of the story, so I just abandoned it after the second volume.)
 
...the latest William Shatner novel, Academy: Collision Course. A sequel, Trial Run, was said to be forthcoming, but apparently isn't happening due to poor sales of the first book.

Was it because of poor sales? I had assumed that it was because the new movie was covering the same territory, and they didn't want two competing versions of young Kirk and Spock coming out at the same time.
 
^That's no doubt part of it, but I don't know if it's the sole reason. I seem to recall hearing that the sales were disappointing, but that may have just been speculation, since of course sales figures are confidential. So never mind.
 
There was also Shatner's public crankiness that there was no audiobook version of the novel, and as I recall he also complained that there was no publicity for the book as well.
 
There was also Shatner's public crankiness that there was no audiobook version of the novel, and as I recall he also complained that there was no publicity for the book as well.

Also, Shatner doesn't have a current three-book deal contract, as he apparently had on his previous two ST trilogies, so nothing was guaranteed re sequels to "Collision Course", apart from his eagerness to write more.
 
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