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"A dedicated science vessal can do more..."

Not true at all. That's just your opinion on the subject and is no more valid than mine.
It's not opinion. Planetary surveys are invariably done by ground teams. Orbital sensor surveys of the type done by Grissom in TSFS and Enterprise in "Pen Pals" make the most sense as "first look" examinations to answer very specific questions.

And if it takes an away team to conduct a survey, it necessarily takes MANY away teams to survey an entire planet.

A science vessel will only need to go to specific places of interest. It's not necessary to literally scour the entire planet
Why not? Starfleet's mission is to explore new worlds, not explore new meadows on the east side of riverbanks. To answer a handful of very specific questions about a particular organism or feature, sure, a small science vessel would suffice. Exploring an entire planet, however, is a massive undertaking.

And it needs to be understood that, more often than not, specific points of interest will not be identified until the planet has been thoroughly explored in detail. Imagine, for example, an alien race trying to explore Earth. Somewhere in their civilization is a scientist who is looking for signs of rudimentary social intelligence in avian life forms; since the science team only explored a stretch of forest in Montana for a handful of weeks, this researcher will never have an opportunity to study the Superb Bird of Paradise in New Guinea; he'll never even know it exists.

And continuing to use Earth as an example: of the many thousands of species of plant and animal life on land and in Earth's oceans, any survey mission seeking to examine all of them in any amount of detail would have to visit hundreds if not thousands of sites for days at a time, and examining deep ocean species--or even air-breathing whale species--would require specialized equipment and several low passes by shuttlecraft.

Yes, a survey mission specifically intended to examine the mating habits of north american chipmunks would require a very small number of researchers and a few months at most to complete. But I don't think it would be very efficient for Starfleet to explore planets one mile at a time, one species at a time, with a different mission for each one of them.

It may not even require a series of probes if the scans can be conducted from orbit, but if something interesting does pop up, then it'll be necessary to send down a small team to check it out. And this does seem to be Starfleet's policy.
For cruisers, yes. At issue here is what exactly Starfleet finds interesting. In TOS this was never made especially clear; often enough it was natural resources like Tritanium or other minerals (a survey which obviously COULD be conducted from orbit) but more often than not we saw Our Heroes beaming down just to take snapshots of something that looked like a nice piece of scenery. TNG had very few examples of genuine planetary surveys; these were mostly Voyager-style orbital flybys with remote sensor readings.

Planetary exploration will invariably be vastly more intense, because what Starfleet finds interesting will probably vary significantly from what botanists/archeologists/paleontologists/zoologists/marine biologists would find interesting.

Essentially, a science vessel is one big warp-capable sensor array.
Actually, that's what PROBES are, and we know Starfleet has long range probes capable of warp speed. The ability to survey planets from orbit and identify points of interest on those planets necessarily precludes the use of a science vessel for that purpose; the unmanned probes can identify points of interest for another ship to come and check out later.

What, then, is the niche for small vessels like the Nova and the Oberth? Again: for examinations of very specific aspects of a planet or star, such a vessel would be ideal: you only need enough people on board to keep the ship running and occasionally beam down to the site of whatever individual thing it is you're supposed to be investigating. This is NOT equivalent to "exploring a planet," anymore than a summer trip to visit the Sears Tower is equivalent to "exploring Chicago."

I disagree. That's just way underestimating the capabilities of sensors and other scientific technology that the Federation has at it's disposal.
A greater estimate is not forthcoming unless it's based on what we've seen on screen. Much has been made of the omniscience of Starfleet's sensor devices, but apart from the fact that they are only ever as sensitive as required by plot logic, the fact of the matter is MOST things that are done on a planet need to be done by an away team, at close range, with tricorders and lab equipment. The very EXISTENCE of these things--especially field kits used by science officers and medics--necessarily means that Starfleet technology is NOT up to the task over long distances. Same again for the existence of planetary probes: the existence of such implies that a starship's sensors, like any other sensor device, loose a certain amount of resolution over long distances.

So unless Starfleet has a sensor array that can immediately identify the presence of fossils, social intelligence, compare genomes and evolutionary traits, record vocalizations and behavior patterns of every species on the planet and--in the case of intelligent life--conduct detailed examinations of the cultural/linguistic/economic/religious interactions between all of the planet's inhabitants, and do all of this from ORBIT, an away team will be necessary.

And we have at least one datapoint that suggests such a thing simply isn't possible: whatever you may think of Klingon sensors, it remains the case that Kirk and the crew of the HMS Bounty had to use an old fashioned radio tag to track down George and Gracie. Finding them in the FIRST place seems to be a huge stroke of luck, as Kirk didn't expect there to be any humpbacks anywhere near San Francisco.

And as I said earlier, it's not necessary to explore the entire thing, but just enough of it to get a really good example of the conditions of a planet.
Which, easy as it may be, isn't exploration.

At some point, it's gotta be "you've seen one M-class planet, you've seen 'em all,"
B.S.. With the extreme amount of variation of climate and animal life on OUR planet, it would be scientifically asinine to assume that any other M-Class planet anywhere in the galaxy is even superficially similar to ours. It would require extremely peculiar commonality over the course of a billion years of evolution just to produce types mundane enough not to warrant detailed examination.

To put that another way: the only way M-Class planets are similar enough not to require planetwide explanation is if all M-Class planets are little more than slightly modified Earths (sort of a variation of the "aliens are just humans with forehead ridges" thing) which would basically transform Starfleet's mission to "Explore familiar worlds, seek out normal life and civilizations, to casually go where no one can tell the difference."

Well, in Star Trek III, the Grissom was only to conduct scans of the Genesis planet from orbit but when they discovered something unusual on the surface, Captain Esteban authorized only a two-man team to check that specific object out.
No, DAVID volunteered to beam down to check it out. Esteban was strongly against the away mission, probably because there wasn't supposed to be any need to beam down in the first place and Starfleet was worried about "radioactive contamination" or something. Remember, the only thing unusual they found on Genesis was "an animal life form" which the device wasn't programmed to create. Most NORMAL planets--especially Class-M ones--are positively teaming with animal life forms.

And note that Grissom's sensors could not identify the life form, or even the number of life forms. If you can research an entire planet in detail from orbit, surely you can identify a lost Vulcan child on a planet devoid of all other animal life forms?

Which is why a science vessel's primary purpose is really data collection and initial research. It can do that longer and more extensively than a larger cruiser can, but ultimately it's job is to bring that data back so it can be researched further back home.
Probably so, but a larger and permanent orbital facility would have to be setup in order to study the planet ON SITE. Paleontologists don't do orbital scans and neither do botanists or Marine Biologists.

No, but less than 80 are needed to collect enough data on a single planet.
Geologic data, sure. Do you want to saddle those 80 people with the job of taking blood and tissue samples of every one of the planets 250,000 animal species?

But I also think that the Enterprise-D was somewhat atypical of a Galaxy-class ship (because of her status as the Federation flagship) and that her sister ships did generally operate farther from home on deep-space exploration missions, at least until they were needed back for the Dominion War...
That doesn't explain what the Yamato was doing so close to the neutral zone, or what the Odyssey was doing so close to Deep Space Nine.
 
Not true at all. That's just your opinion on the subject and is no more valid than mine.
It's not opinion.
B.S., it is opinion, especially when the subject is something that isn't seen onscreen. There's nothing wrong with having opinions or speculations, but don't confuse them with actual facts when they simply aren't.

To avoid repeating myself over and over again with everything else in your post, I'll just use "I disagree with you" as a blanket statement and leave it at that.

Our disagreement is about a difference of personal opinions and speculations, not about facts.

Good day.
 
First of all, even though we a lot of on-screen ramblings that the Galaxy Class were explorers in TNG, there really is no evidence that the Galaxy Class' mission was to explore. Everything that we've seen shows the Galaxy Class' mission is to show the flag and assume the role of command ship. The majority of the time when the Enterprise "explores" is when the Enterprise either accidentally stumbles upon it or pushed upon an unknown phenomena. Besides, if the main role of the Oberth was to sit and explore an entire planet on each survey mission, then the Oberth (generic science vessel) would be much larger with more living space, larger sensor equipment, an manufacturing plant for producing the materials needed for planetary missions, and the list ever goes on. The Oberths are there to scan and possibly send down investigative teams for items of local interest. Then this information would be sent back to the Federation, where loads of scientist would pour over the information. The Oberth would then go back to port to be fitted for the next mission. To really think that a small science vessel with a small crew would spend weeks, if not months scanning every inch of the surface of the planet with a small hand-held version that they have on the ship is preposterous.
 
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We probably shouldn't confuse "the mission of the Galaxy class" and "the mission of the Enterprise-D".

In "Encounter at Farpoint", the E-D was supposed to go out exploring. At the end of the episode, the support base that should have made that exploration mission possible had flown away with its girlfriend, and a powerful godlike creature had declared that mankind would be in deep trouble if it explored more. So is it any wonder that the E-D spends the next seven years doing everything but exploring?

In contrast, her sister ship Yamato was shown to spend the better part of a year outside contact with home base, exploring weird alien things whose very existence was on the level of rumors. Supposedly, a USS Galaxy was also somewhere out there at the time, never being mentioned - and quite possibly there were other sister ships we never heard of, too. So it's plausible to speculate that the rest of the class indeed performed long exploration missions, leaving the E-D to do "flagship" stuff closer to home.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Actually, the Yamato was only stated to be in another quadrant as the Enterprise (TNG Where the Silence Has Leased) and found some ruins in the Denius System, where the Yamato went to Iconia in the RNZ. Which I assume that the Yamato was at least in Federation space or quite close to it.

The Galaxy, according to the Encyclopedia, was in prototype status at first, and then we see it leading a fleet in the Dominion War. we see the Venture leading a fleet to DS9. We see the Odyssey leading a rescue mission. The USS Challenger led the fleet against a Borg sphere. Yes, I assumed that the Galaxies were the flagships based on previous uses of the Galaxy Class.

In my opinion, the Nebula Class were seen to have more dedicated exploration missions, the Hera, the Lexington, the Merrimack, and the Proxima and at the same time have combat and/or near combat missions.
 
Not true at all. That's just your opinion on the subject and is no more valid than mine.
It's not opinion.
B.S., it is opinion, especially when the subject is something that isn't seen onscreen. There's nothing wrong with having opinions or speculations, but don't confuse them with actual facts when they simply aren't.
It is a logical deduction based on what we have seen. If it takes an away team to survey a particular plot of land, then it takes THOUSANDS of away teams to survey an entire planet. The whole job cannot be done from orbit.
 
Only slightly off topic, but in the novel Prime Directive, one of the characters, Gauvreau, is a former first officer and merchant ship captain who wanted command of a starship. She was refused by the admiralty, who offered her command of a science vessel instead.

The narrative indicates that both Kirk and Gauvreau saw that as a second-class posting for an explorer. That command of a dedicated science vessel was akin to being relegated to second place, as that kind of ship was a fine posting for science specialists, as these ships were involved in long-range research. But it wasn't for explorers who would be at the forefront of discovery.

Red Ranger
 
It's not opinion.
B.S., it is opinion, especially when the subject is something that isn't seen onscreen. There's nothing wrong with having opinions or speculations, but don't confuse them with actual facts when they simply aren't.
It is a logical deduction based on what we have seen. If it takes an away team to survey a particular plot of land, then it takes THOUSANDS of away teams to survey an entire planet. The whole job cannot be done from orbit.
Actually, based on what we have seen, science vessels are generally relatively small vessels that operate just fine with crews of no more than EIGHTY (Starships Tsiolkovsky and Equinox).
 
Also, we have to consider what it means to survey a planet. Covering all "plots of land" probably ain't it; nobody surveys terrain like that today, either. Rather, the survey party will probably beam down on spots of specific interest, then spend the next week analyzing their findings aboard the ship and working out how it ties in to the greater whole. Perhaps a thousand spots are indeed required to cover a planet; but that only means a thousand weeks of work. What's the hurry, if it only ties up a few dozen people and a tiny Oberth?

Perhaps we should do well to list the times we have seen "planetary surveys" and figure out what was going on in each case. Generally, it's our explorer heroes who are seen surveying, and they are constantly on a schedule to move on; they don't do in-depth.

Then we have the Grissom doing the Genesis Planet. Esteban was quite ready to conduct the survey from orbit, and hesistant to allow for landing parties, but then again Genesis was known to be not yer usual inert world.

Then we have various Oberths studying non-class-M world and phenomena. The crews range from less than a dozen to eighty, but the surveys supposedly always involve considerable lengths of time.

Then there's the Dyson Sphere, which initially warranted two science vessels. That's one per 125,000,000 planets. Clearly, the approach taken was not to cover each square meter with landing parties...

What other examples do we have? A longterm survey party on the surface in "Lessons" and "Second Chances"; tiny archaeological teams in various episodes. We don't know if these had an extensive satellite network in orbit, high performance vehicles for movement across the planet, or just tents, backpacks and binoculars with blinking lights. They were optimized for their specific jobs, not intended to sift the sands of an entire planetary surface.

Any examples of more extensive survey efforts?

Timo Saloniemi
 
^^ I think that the Oberth isn't called a scout vessel for nothing, it zips in, takes a thorough look at the planet to see if there's at least no big threats around and also keep an eye on the solar system and immediate space for troubles and when she's done she calls in the long term scientist troups and moves onto the next planet, makes sense to me.
 
1) I don't think the Oberth has ever been called a scoutship. In ST3, Kirk mused that an Oberth might be mistaken for a scoutship - but he was wrong, and in fact ran into a bona fide Klingon scout...

2) I don't think the Oberth has ever demonstrated the ability to "zip" anywhere. With her tiny engines, she's probably like the Nova, slow as molasses, best employed on longterm studies like the ones we saw in TNG (hanging around a dying star, hanging around the Black Cluster, hanging around a dull gas giant, etc.). Onscreen, an Oberth never spearheaded the push into the unknown.

Timo Saloniemi
 
1) I don't think the Oberth has ever been called a scoutship. In ST3, Kirk mused that an Oberth might be mistaken for a scoutship - but he was wrong, and in fact ran into a bona fide Klingon scout...

2) I don't think the Oberth has ever demonstrated the ability to "zip" anywhere. With her tiny engines, she's probably like the Nova, slow as molasses, best employed on longterm studies like the ones we saw in TNG (hanging around a dying star, hanging around the Black Cluster, hanging around a dull gas giant, etc.). Onscreen, an Oberth never spearheaded the push into the unknown.

Timo Saloniemi

No, the Oberth was no Scout...similar size though.

That Nova though is well armed for a science ship but then Equinox didn't make a dent in Voyager's shields. That's how you know Voyager was no science vessel but a combat/defender.
 
I always tended to view the Oberth as a scout, in terms of mission rather than size.
 
Like already mentioned, Kirk never called the Grissom a scout.

Chekov said that he for an instant saw a scout class vessel. He was surprised and alarmed by this. Kirk wasn't sure what Chekov saw, and he speculated that Chekov might have mistaken the Grissom for a scout. But as we know, he was soon proven wrong.

If the Grissom had been a scout, why should Chekov be amazed let alone alarmed at finding a scout orbiting the Genesis planet?

Also, we never saw an Oberth "scout" anything, in the sense that she would have gone to check out something for the first time. An Oberth always came in sloppy seconds, whether to survey in detail something that had already been discovered, or to bring supplies or personnel to another starship or space station that was already there.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The final scene of Generations made the Oberth look about as big as my dining room table (which only seats 4) so I'm not sure why it looks 1/4 the size of the Galaxy class in episodes like The Naked Now.

Anyway... dedicated science vessels make sense. To study something for months or a year, etc.
 
Difficult to tell how big the ship was originally supposed to be in ST3. The model features what looks like window rows on the saucer, but trusting those would mean that the ship is far bigger than Kirk's. OTOH, Chekov and Kirk are unsure whether the Klingon ship is the Grissom, and the Klingon ship is stated in dialogue to be inferior to Kirk's (even though some visuals make her almost as big as the Enterprise).

It seems that very soon after ST3, if not already during the filming of that movie, it was decided that the Oberth is a fairly small vessel. However, this decision may not have been made by the time of "The Naked Now" yet. The ship there does hold eighty people, which would be something of a squeeze on the ST:GEN take of the vessel...

After "The Naked Now", though, the Oberth was consistently used in the role of a vessel that only holds a few dozen people or less. The later suggested 120 m length makes sense, then; 80 people would fit aboard, too, if uncomfortably. Later TNG visuals did not show the Oberth next to starships of known size, not until ST:GEN.

The single example seen in the DS9 pilot was only shown approaching the station, not really doing a final hard dock that would have allowed us to reliably estimate the relative size. If we take the last frame of the approach sequence as suggesting hard dock, then the Oberth would be about the size of a Galaxy again...Bbut we don't have to.

Indeed, the one episode that would suggest a large Oberth, "The Naked Now", also allows us to disregard most of the evidence: the ships don't overlap in the rendezvous sequences, so we can always argue that the Tsiolkovsky looks large merely because she's closer to the camera than the Enterprise...

Timo Saloniemi
 
I always tended to view the Oberth as a scout, in terms of mission rather than size.

Consider this definition:

Scout: lookout: a person employed to keep watch for some anticipated event

The bird of prey fits that definition. It is a small ship sent for the express purpose of gathering information about a possible enemy encounter. In other worlds...reconnaissance.

The oberth is a science vessel. Not a combat vessel. It would be out runned and out gunned and it's shields wouldn't survive one encounter as we saw.
 
Which simply means it's not a military scout like the BOP is. The Oberth is intended to explore new scientific anomalies, and therefore could be classified as a science scout. That's how I tend to view it.
 
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