Just watched all of DS9 in a week.

[Nerys Ghemor]

That's why there was NOTHING suspicious about it--or at least, there shouldn't have been from a Federation perspective, given the major intelligence breaks we KNOW they'd had in that regard.

I'd think Starfleet Command made it a point to keep the existence of the dissident movement secret--so as to protect the lives of the rebels.

Thus, one could say the Klingons had no such intel--and were acting on what they had.

Again, not condoning their actions. Just trying to understand their point of view.

So "keeping the rebels secret" before the rebellion means letting them get killed afterwards? Sorry, not buying that one. I just think the Federation should've gone a lot further. I'm not talking about storming Qo'NoS, but laying the smackdown on them until they withdrew. Not just "came to a stalemate"--but withdrew from all Union territories.

Oh, and with regard to the Rom-Leeta question...it seems like Rom had rejected his own culture before meeting Leeta. I'm not sure he was ever fully at ease with his culture's values, even though he went through the motions.

 

[Kira Nerys]

YIKES !!!!!

 

[Danoz]

Just wanted to pick up on this, I just re-watched the episode where Nog asked Sisko to recommend him to Starfleet, and his reason for wanting to sign up was because he didn't want to end up like his father, who worked for a pittance for a brother who showed him little appreciation and also bopped him on the head every now and again. I don't think he was ashamed of his culture, I think he felt that his father was downtrodden and he wanted to make something of himself, rather than accepting it the way Rom did at first. Obviously Rom goes on to work with hyoo-mons; I think he looked up to them because they provided him with a better living and more respect, which was probably why he wanted to eat the same breakfast as Chief O'Brien - a hero of his. I felt like it was an evolution for the Ferengi as they were portrayed as so base before. They're a new generation who had values and respect and they applied that acquisitional work-ethic to something more selfless than making a profit - I really loved how they progressed throughout the series

Yea, I forgot to address the Ferengi issue. Making all members of a race THE SAME and nothing more than a one-dimensional stereotype, does NOT make a well-developed alien race. It's silly and highly unrealistic, and does not create interesting characters.

Making members of a race more varied, showing that, whatever their culture is, the race consists of many different INDIVIDUALS, is not "ruining" them, it is saving them from becoming silly unconvincing caricatures.

That's something I normally I agree with. I hate it when people say "Your strong. You must have klingon blood in you" . That's like going to a black kid good at maths and telling him that he must have Korean blood in him.

But the fact is that Rom has previously apperead to be stuck with Ferengi values. He even took Nog out of school and kept told him not to hang around with Jake.



The worst thing was Roms wedding. It such a delibrate pisstake. Leeta wants a traditional Bajoran wedding. Rom is acquiescen. He even wears the earing and reads Bajoran Prophicies. How ever when it's Leetas turn to accept Ferengi value a prenup. She gets angry and refuses. They only get back together when Rom gives up his Ferengi idea.

That smacks of cultural assimilation by the majority into others.

Except for, if I remember correctly, the prenuptual agreement required her to abandon all assets to her husband and restrict her from earning profit...

 

[Danoz]

^Yeah, they just can't REVEAL themselves to non-warp races....

But anyway--my compliments, Ensign, for watching ALL THAT in a week.

The best I could do was watch TOS first season in a week....

So...outta curiosity...what were your thoughts on Jadzia's death and Ezri's suceeding her?

My thoughts? Someone should have killed Jadzia when she was on the transport to DS9 for the first time. God I can't stand her. The constant smiling. The bad jokes and the repetitive mentioning of Curzon. After a while I just wanted to shout out
"STFU ABOUT CURZON AND STOP SMILING"

Ezri was a whole different cup of tea. She was annoying at first but then the writers got a groove for her. I actually liked her. Her romance with Bashir was better handled then the one with Jadzia and Worf. I feel really sorry for Nicole DeBoer. Other having such a fantastic Dutch name she was only there for a year.

I never had any disdain for Jadzia. I actually agreed with Garak when he tears into Ezri Dax as being a weak and annoyingly confused character who should NEVER have tried to reintegrate with her past life. Her relationship with Bashir was rushed and immature and based soley on a lingering sexual tention between Jadzia and Julian.

Having said that, the novel series (relaunch) does a truly excellent job of giving her character some growth.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Oh, I couldn't disagree more...I'd say, Ezri's conflicts are very legit--and far from being weak and annoying, her struggles show her to be stronger than she'd ever imagined--as we see her take it, and press on.

And I completely disagree with the notion that the Julian-Ezri relationship was rushed, immature, etc. There's a lot of precident throughout the season, as we see their friendship bloom and develop....

And I seriously doubt their feelings are just based on Julian's feelings for Jadzia. Sorry, but those two "interactions" are so very different...that a comparison is very difficult--for me, at least. Ezri personality is as different from Jadzia's as night and day.

But I do kinda like the idea of her "maturing" throughout the relaunch--up to her captaincy in Destiny and Singular Destiny.

 

[SharkD]

I just started season 7. I have to say that the new Dax is kind of... annoying. They should've just kept Dax dead or stationed somewhere else. The first disc had a couple of stinkers too.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

To me, the Klingon alliance was merely one of political convenience, anyway. What moral standing did they have, since they continued conquering worlds during their tine allied with the Federation (I believe Krios was one known example of this), and presumably had not changed their ways? To me, a Federation alliance shows they're condoning that sort of thing.

To me, this is just one more demonstration of the Federation talking a big game about its vaunted morals and then going for expediency in practice.

About the klingons attacking the cardassians - it was clearly a war of conquest aka immoral.
The klingons claimed it was a preemptive strike - that the dominion controlled Cardassia (self-fulfilling prophecy?) - but this was shown to be merely an excuse in "Way of the warrior".

Because of this, from an abstract, deontological point of view, the Federation attacking the Klingon Empire was the right thing to do.

But not from a practical, utilitarian point of view. Not even close.

Let's say the Federation did attack the klingons. The klingons, being the trigger-happy gang of bikers that they are, would have retaliated, starting a quadrant-wide war - and they are no weaklings. The resulting war would have cost tens (even hundreds) of millions of lives - many of them Federation lives. At the end of the war, the alpha/beta quadrants would be severly weakened, ripe for Dominion conquest. And this would result in countless generations of humans/klingons/cardassians/etc living under opression - and many of them dying.

And millions of federation citizens should spill their blood/Federation shoud endanger the future of the alpha/beta quadrants for who?
For the cardassians, who, since the very beginning, were in a state of cold (and sometimes hot) war with the Federation?
The Federation had no reason to trust them (and many reasons to distrust them). The Federation owed them absolutely nothing.

 

[RyuRoots]

^Oh, I couldn't disagree more...I'd say, Ezri's conflicts are very legit--and far from being weak and annoying, her struggles show her to be stronger than she'd ever imagined--as we see her take it, and press on.

And I completely disagree with the notion that the Julian-Ezri relationship was rushed, immature, etc. There's a lot of precident throughout the season, as we see their friendship bloom and develop....

And I seriously doubt their feelings are just based on Julian's feelings for Jadzia. Sorry, but those two "interactions" are so very different...that a comparison is very difficult--for me, at least. Ezri personality is as different from Jadzia's as night and day.

But I do kinda like the idea of her "maturing" throughout the relaunch--up to her captaincy in Destiny and Singular Destiny.

Agreed, except on the Julian thing. Me, I love both of the characters. I hate this pairing. It just felt like "Well, damn. I can never be with Jadzia now. Oh well, next best thing!" and it left a very sour taste in my mouth.

 

[SharkD]

I just watched The Siege of AR-558 and had to double-check to make sure that it didn't in fact co-star Randy Couture.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Agreed, except on the Julian thing. Me, I love both of the characters. I hate this pairing. It just felt like "Well, damn. I can never be with Jadzia now. Oh well, next best thing!" and it left a very sour taste in my mouth.

As I said, I seriously doubt this was anything close to what was going on through Julian's mind--because Ezri is completely different from Jadzia.

And remember how he confessed to O'Brien that "I love Ezri...passionately."

And when you look at all the interaction between Julian and Ezri...and compare it with the interaction between Julian and Jadzia...I think one will conclude that the two "cameraderies" are so very different.

Julian and Ezri play off each other so well, trading wit and so on. Julian and Jadzia always seems like "Jadzia act coy, and Julian struggles to get her to feel for him--which doesn't work, but he keeps coming back--and keeps getting left out in the rain", as it were....

Ezri is most certainly not a substitute. Julian could never interact with Jadzia the way he interacts with Ezri. And in many ways...Ezri is a far better partner for him than Jadzia could ever have been.

 

[DevilEyes]

Ezri is most certainly not a substitute. Julian could never interact with Jadzia the way he interacts with Ezri. And in many ways...Ezri is a far better partner for him than Jadzia could ever have been.

I have to agree with that. Jadzia and Julian never really seemed like a serious possibility. She just seemed to find him nice and amusing but childish... I don't see her suddenly changing her mind and falling passionately for him, whatever the circumstances. Ezri and Bashir, OTOH, played off each other well.

 

[Tallis Rhul]

Well said. I think the fact that Ezri is a little less confident than Jadzia allows Julian his way in. He can look after her, which she appreciates, whereas Jadzia just never needed that from him.

I found her annoying at first, but her character does progress throughout season 7, and by the time we're getting into the meat of the Dominion War she's actually not that bad. In addition I really liked the episode where she had to bring Joran's personality out to track down that murderer.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well said. I think the fact that Ezri is a little less confident than Jadzia allows Julian his way in. He can look after her, which she appreciates, whereas Jadzia just never needed that from him.

Essentially. Ezri's a whole lot more feminine than Jadzia, I'd say. Jadzia has a "tom-boy" quality about her--a "masculine side", if you will--and as such, felt she did not "need" a man, or something to that effect....

Ezri, of course, has her vulnerabilities, and knows them. I think Julian "completes" her, in a way--just as she completes him, filling in his own vulnerabilities.

And yes: Jadzia seems to have a thing for treating Julian--and practically every man except Worf--like a boy. Ezri is more willing to accept him as a man.

I found her annoying at first, but her character does progress throughout season 7, and by the time we're getting into the meat of the Dominion War she's actually not that bad.

While I never found her annoying (though, the writers did give her a few unfortunate "laugh-at-her-not-with-her" moments, like her making the "static" noises in "Penumbra"), I agree that she started out as rather unsure of herself and her abilities. As the season progressed, her self-confidence grew, as she gradually discovered the heroine within herself.

 

[RyuRoots]

I know they're very different people (I love Ezri for it) and that Julian's interactions with each Dax were different, but it's still a feeling I just can't shake, like I half-expected Julian to accidentally call Ezri Jadzia sometimes. And honestly, having heard that they split up in the novels made me want to read more Trek lit.

Julian was a fantastic character by the show's end, and I loved Ezri right off the bat, but as a couple...meh. I would've been much happier if the writers didn't feel the need to put Ezri with someone.

 

[SharkD]

I know they're very different people (I love Ezri for it) and that Julian's interactions with each Dax were different, but it's still a feeling I just can't shake, like I half-expected Julian to accidentally call Ezri Jadzia sometimes.

If they'd just added the Ezri character and thrown out all the "Oh, but she's a Trill. Oh, and she's Dax!" stuff it would have been better. Imagine if they'd started the series with a reborn version of O'Brien instead of having Meaney play him!

The very last season of a show is also kind of late to add a new character given that you know beforehand that you'll only have one season to get to know her. I mean, you're wasting episodes on backstory of a character who'll only be around for a short while anyway, when you could have been focusing on the climaxing Dominion war!

If Jadzia had died on the prison planet and Ezri introduced at the end of Season 6 it might have been different. Jadzia's sudden death didn't exactly make for a great cliffhanger.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Honestly? If they were going to add a new character to the show so very late, they would have to give her (or him) some kind of emotional connection with the audience off the bat, precicely because they would otherwise have to do even more stories focused on her/him, in order to make him/her useful. Otherwise, the addition is just a random change.

And as for the Jadzia-death clifhanger, it was more of an emotional clifhangar. The Prophets are gone, Jadzia's dead, Sisko's emotionally broken. Our characters are in the depths of despair...and we are desperate to see them come back up.