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"The Offspring," will Data be the last of his kind in Trek Lit?

Spiner even getting a choice in his characters death is ludicrous.

What? Who's more entitled to have a choice than the man who plays the role? Actors aren't slave labor, you know. Nobody could force Spiner to go on playing Data indefinitely. He had the right to decide it was time to move on.

I also don't think getting paid the cash Spiner got paid would classify him as slave labor either. He is not entitled just because he plays the role.

^ He's more entitled than you are. By far.
Agreed. I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of a time when a character is killed off, it is because the actor, doesn't want to do the series anymore. There are alot of shows (like Lost for example) where big story arcs had to come to an end because the actor didn't want to do the part anymore.
 
Issues of rights and entitlement aside, it's very shortsighted to proclaim that the death of any major character is an inherently poor creative choice. Death can be a vehicle for some tremendously emotional and poignant storytelling, if done properly.

The question of whether or not the particular deaths of Kirk and Data were handled well is a completely separate issue.
 
Agreed. I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of a time when a character is killed off, it is because the actor, doesn't want to do the series anymore. There are alot of shows (like Lost for example) where big story arcs had to come to an end because the actor didn't want to do the part anymore.

Two words: Tasha Yar. Two more: Jadzia Dax. In both cases, the actresses decided it was time to move on -- though arguably in Denise Crosby's case, it was because they'd never made good use of her in the first place.
 
I was a bit shocked to see some of the reactions. I thought it was the year 1780 and not 2381. Are we not here to discuss without all the blistering of my hind quarters?

^ He's more entitled than you are. By far.

I never suggested I was "entitled." The tone of the comment is disappointing.

The better question would be is Spiner more entitled than the fan base to decide? More entitled than Paramount? I guess so since he wanted it done and they needed him to get the folks through the gate. Still, for the Lit part, you would think they would have handled it better.



He is not entitled just because he plays the role.

If the role did not satisfy Brent Spiner's whims - as an esteemed character actor always seeking a new challenge for a well-worn character - he'd simply refuse to sign his "Nemesis" contract - and the movie probably wouldn't have gone ahead with its major co-star. Similarly, Nimoy refused to sign on for "In Thy Image" and, when it became ST:TMP, new director Robert Wise told Paramount to pay whatever Nimoy wanted to get him on board.

So yes, as one of the movie's bankable stars, he is very "entitled".

Fans seem to think it's the fans that have entitlement.

I guess you answered my earlier question. You think the fan's are not entitled. Fair enough response.



I don't know the details of his contract. If he wanted to stop, they could have just made him a mentionable afterthought or put him at a well known research institute. Data's death is a business decesion. While he may be the actor that plays the role, he is not the creative mind and owner of the character. In the end Paramount should have refused to kill Data off for the good of Trek.

It's Paramounts final decesion, is it not?

So what you're saying is that movie studios should have the right to force filmmakers and writers to compromise their creative freedom and submit to what the studios demand. While it is true that that's already the case, you will never get me to agree that it's a good thing. This is a decision that was made by two of the screenwriters of the film (Brent Spiner co-plotted the film's story, so you're wrong to say he wasn't a "creative mind" on this production) as well as its producer and director. It is outrageous for you to claim (on this forum in particular) that it's somehow morally wrong for those people to be allowed to make their own creative choices.

Let's cut the crap. They didn't do anything objectively wrong or improper. All they did was make a creative choice that you personally didn't agree with. It's obnoxious in the extreme to argue that people shouldn't have the right to make a choice just because you didn't enjoy it.

Christopher, I would have to say that this response really shocked me. Is it really "outrageous" for me to voice an opinion like the one I stated? Morally wrong??? What led you to the conclusion that I was saying it was "morally" wrong? :confused: I said it was a business decision and it was Paramount to make the final call.

They didn't do anything wrong or improper because it was theirs to do. However, I do disagree with the choice and would like to discuss it in this forum as an adult.

Obnoxious in the extreme may be your reaction to my post. Really, can we not just have a nice dialogue about this without all the overtones? :rolleyes:



What? Who's more entitled to have a choice than the man who plays the role? Actors aren't slave labor, you know. Nobody could force Spiner to go on playing Data indefinitely. He had the right to decide it was time to move on.

I also don't think getting paid the cash Spiner got paid would classify him as slave labor either. He is not entitled just because he plays the role.

^ He's more entitled than you are. By far.
Agreed. I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of a time when a character is killed off, it is because the actor, doesn't want to do the series anymore. There are alot of shows (like Lost for example) where big story arcs had to come to an end because the actor didn't want to do the part anymore.

Issues of rights and entitlement aside, it's very shortsighted to proclaim that the death of any major character is an inherently poor creative choice. Death can be a vehicle for some tremendously emotional and poignant storytelling, if done properly.

The question of whether or not the particular deaths of Kirk and Data were handled well is a completely separate issue.

Shortsighted maybe. But we have had a long time to dwell on Kirk's death and Shatnerverse kinda pushes me to believe that was a mistake for sure. The very existence of that line of books is catering to the fan base who was really pissed about the death and the handling. Would you not agree?

Agreed. I think it's worth pointing out that the majority of a time when a character is killed off, it is because the actor, doesn't want to do the series anymore. There are alot of shows (like Lost for example) where big story arcs had to come to an end because the actor didn't want to do the part anymore.

Two words: Tasha Yar. Two more: Jadzia Dax. In both cases, the actresses decided it was time to move on -- though arguably in Denise Crosby's case, it was because they'd never made good use of her in the first place.

Tasha is a bit of a stretch. She had a short run and didn't believe in the show. Her death was a turning point in the series though, that I can't argue with. It made the show have meaning to me.

I wasn't that big of a DS9 fan so I can't really comment on that.
 
She had a short run and didn't believe in the show.

Denise Crosby certainly did believe in the show. She auditioned for a blond, willowy Troi - and was switched during casting to try out for dark, feisty "Macha Hernandez" instead, which the casting sheets described as a meaty role similar to that played by Jeanette Goldstein in "Aliens". The first writers' bible then told Crosby that Tasha Yar would essentially be the lead actress of her scenes whenever the action switched to away missions.

What changed all that was the casting of Partrick Stewart as Picard. No longer a figurehead character (like Kirk might have eventually been to Will Decker in "Phase II", as Shatner seemed to have planned for episodes #13-26), Picard was in focus on board the ship and Riker, not Yar, picked up the focus on away missions.

As described to Crosby, TNG didn't turn out to meet those expectations and she found herself marginalised to being a standing-up version of Uhura in TOS, opening hailing frequencies. Understandably miffed, but the writers would also suggest that had she proven a stronger actress they may have written meatier scenes for her earlier on, so it's Catch-22.

You think the fan's are not entitled.

Of course we aren't! We are consumers. We can vote to support the show, or not, with our wallets and our ratings booklets, but we aren't entitled to mandate how characters are written or performed.
 
Of course we aren't! We are consumers. We can vote to support the show, or not, with our wallets and our ratings booklets, but we aren't entitled to mandate how characters are written or performed.

I think we should scrap the word entitled from this discussion. It is the wrong word to be using and definitely not the feeling I wish to convey.
 
I think we should scrap the word entitled from this discussion. It is the wrong word to be using and definitely not the feeling I wish to convey.

Well, your original post said, "Killing Data off ranks almost as stupid as Killing Kirk... I hate that Data is dead and I want his character back."

I was very upset that Data was killed off - he was my favourite TNG character, and I think Director Baird really failed to get the audience choked up enough to "enjoy" enduring the ultimate sacrifice of Data. Had it been done differently, I might of been sobbing with tears of empathy, but I was quite dry-eyed for both the death scene and the eulogizing. Not the feeling I wanted at all.

But as much as I might have disliked the decisions made, and the methods used, I also fully understood Brent Spiner's desire to take Data's character arc in that final direction (and even to cover his ass by giving us some hope with the B-4).
 
Brent Spiner played Data, and now Data is dead in the Canon of Trek. That must be accepted.

What confuses me as a Trek fan was the Countdown prequel series generally made the determination: Data is B4, alive and well and in command of the Enterprise-E.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=21208356

Wiki(grain of salt): "When asked whether the filmmakers' involvement in the comic made it canonical, Orci stated he was in no position to declare whether it as such, though he felt it could easily remain as such unless it was contradicted in a future film."

Also:"The comic is set eight years after the film Star Trek Nemesis. Federation and Romulan tensions have generally subsided, with Spock the official Federation ambassador to the Romulans. Data is still alive and has become captain of the Enterprise-E after successfully imprinting his memories onto the prototype android B-4. Jean-Luc Picard is now Federation ambassador to Vulcan, Geordi La Forge has retired to develop his own ships, and Worf is a General in the Klingon Empire."

Okay. That is fair enough. In a multiverse such as Star Trek, do writers not enjoy the ultimate freedom of imagination anyway?

It seems very insulting to suggest wizkid is less entitled to believe Data should or should not be dead than Brent Spiner. This business of who has an opinion which is more important that another person is disturbing. Arguing about who has the right to make decisions that affect a TV show is something profoundly different. But maybe the bickering here addresses the frustration that Data was killed off.

I thought Spiner had stated that as he as an actor would age, he did not want Data portrayed as an aging, balding fat android or something. Which was why he was on board to play Dr. Arik Soong on Enterprise. I can certainly accept that.

...I think Director Baird really failed to get the audience choked up enough to "enjoy" enduring the ultimate sacrifice of Data. Had it been done differently, I might of been sobbing with tears of empathy, but I was quite dry-eyed for both the death scene and the eulogizing. Not the feeling I wanted at all.

That sums it up well. I am not against killing characters off... but Data, Kirk and Trip had deaths that were unsettling as they were handed out casually and basically to get the movie or series overwith. Tasha Yar and Jadzia Dax took exits from the stage in a way. Maybe Spock and his death in Khan was handled the best because it was written, acted and directed with a great deal of skill and talent. It is gut wrenching... every time I see it.
 
It seems very insulting to suggest wizkid is less entitled to believe Data should or should not be dead than Brent Spiner

Actually, wasn't it wizkid saying that Brent Spiner wasn't entitled to have a say in how his character's arc developed in "Nemesis"? That some fans would rather Data be written out rather than killed off?

That's what we were questioning; not that wizkid wasn't allowed to have any opinion on the matter. wizkid said, "Spiner even getting a choice in his characters death is ludicrous."

Spiner was a co-writer of the story; of course his opinion mattered more than ours - he pitched the story! Why is it "ludicrous" that an actor pitches a story idea?

But isn't it also insulting to the writers and actors that the fans seem to claim entitlement to direct the franchise, and therefore the creators must listen to us? Because the fans have a multitude of wildly varying opinions, and none will ever be satisfied as if we are one being.
 
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Therin's right. Nobody's questioning wizkid's right to want a character to stick around. But for wizkid to say that an actor should have no right to decide his own career path was just plain wrong.
 
Therin's right. Nobody's questioning wizkid's right to want a character to stick around. But for wizkid to say that an actor should have no right to decide his own career path was just plain wrong.

I took it as Wizkid suggesting that if Spiner wanted to quit they could just have had Data bashed around so the repairs left him with a remodelled face - i.e. a recast.
 
I think all wizkid was saying was that Brent Spiner can choose his career path all he wants, but he shouldn't be able to dictate what happens to Data just because he's the person that played him. It's not like Mr. Spiner owned Data. But since Paramount hired Brent to co-write the story and then they approved the story, then everyone who counts when it comes to deciding the fates of trek charatcers had a voice.

Not sure if I agree with wizkid, but I am one of the people who misses Data in the books. If the whole Data re-writing over B4 actually happens, i'd be happy to see Data back in the fold :).
 
I think all wizkid was saying was that Brent Spiner can choose his career path all he wants, but he shouldn't be able to dictate what happens to Data just because he's the person that played him.

Which is an invalid position for several reasons. For one, he didn't "dictate" it. He was one of the people who made the decision along with John Logan, Rick Berman, and Stuart Baird, and of course it had to be approved by the higher-ups at the studio, just like every other decision in the process of making the film.

For another, he was overtly listed in the credits as a cowriter of the film's story. It makes no sense to say that a cowriter of the film has no right to contribute to the writing of the film.

For another, there is abundant precedent. Nimoy only agreed to do TWOK if Spock would be killed off in it. Then he changed his mind and that decision led to Spock's resurrection. Tasha Yar died because Denise Crosby wanted out. Jadzia died because Terry Farrell wanted out. The Doctor in Doctor Who gained the ability to regenerate because the original actor who played the role grew too ill to continue, and his successive incarnations have all lived only as long as their respective actors were willing to play the role (with the exception of Colin Baker, who was fired, and Paul McGann, who was in a failed revival pilot). Countless times in the history of film and television, characters have been killed off, written out, or transformed because of the decisions made by the actors who played them. It's a routine practice. It's ridiculous to say that actors have no right to make that decision, because it happens all the time.

And it's offensive to say they have no right, because it wrongly reduces them to mere servants, when in fact they are vital members of the team effort that shapes a character. In prose, a character is entirely the creation of the author. But in stage, film, and television, the actor makes a vital contribution to the creation and evolution of the character. This is especially true in television, where writers come and go but the actor stays with the character. The way a character's personality turns out is highly dependent on the actor. The writers' choice of relationships between characters is shaped by the chemistry or lack thereof between their respective actors. Over time, writers shape their characters to fit their portrayers' personalities and skills. Picard became a more central character than intended due to Patrick Stewart's great presence and power. Worf became a more major character than intended because audiences liked Michael Dorn. The DS9 writers invented the Odo-Kira romance because of the way Rene Auberjonois played his interaction with Nana Visitor. They made Rom a major character because they liked Max Grodenchik's performance (same with several other recurring characters). The Doctor on Voyager became an opera singer because that's one of Robert Picardo's skills. It is grossly ignorant and absurd to say that an actor has no role in shaping a character.
 
I think all wizkid was saying was that Brent Spiner can choose his career path all he wants, but he shouldn't be able to dictate what happens to Data just because he's the person that played him.

Which is an invalid position for several reasons. For one, he didn't "dictate" it. He was one of the people who made the decision along with John Logan, Rick Berman, and Stuart Baird, and of course it had to be approved by the higher-ups at the studio, just like every other decision in the process of making the film.

For another, he was overtly listed in the credits as a cowriter of the film's story. It makes no sense to say that a cowriter of the film has no right to contribute to the writing of the film.

For another, there is abundant precedent. Nimoy only agreed to do TWOK if Spock would be killed off in it. Then he changed his mind and that decision led to Spock's resurrection. Tasha Yar died because Denise Crosby wanted out. Jadzia died because Terry Farrell wanted out. The Doctor in Doctor Who gained the ability to regenerate because the original actor who played the role grew too ill to continue, and his successive incarnations have all lived only as long as their respective actors were willing to play the role (with the exception of Colin Baker, who was fired, and Paul McGann, who was in a failed revival pilot). Countless times in the history of film and television, characters have been killed off, written out, or transformed because of the decisions made by the actors who played them. It's a routine practice. It's ridiculous to say that actors have no right to make that decision, because it happens all the time.

And it's offensive to say they have no right, because it wrongly reduces them to mere servants, when in fact they are vital members of the team effort that shapes a character. In prose, a character is entirely the creation of the author. But in stage, film, and television, the actor makes a vital contribution to the creation and evolution of the character. This is especially true in television, where writers come and go but the actor stays with the character. The way a character's personality turns out is highly dependent on the actor. The writers' choice of relationships between characters is shaped by the chemistry or lack thereof between their respective actors. Over time, writers shape their characters to fit their portrayers' personalities and skills. Picard became a more central character than intended due to Patrick Stewart's great presence and power. Worf became a more major character than intended because audiences liked Michael Dorn. The DS9 writers invented the Odo-Kira romance because of the way Rene Auberjonois played his interaction with Nana Visitor. They made Rom a major character because they liked Max Grodenchik's performance (same with several other recurring characters). The Doctor on Voyager became an opera singer because that's one of Robert Picardo's skills. It is grossly ignorant and absurd to say that an actor has no role in shaping a character.
So Robert Picardo did do all of the opera stuff, I always wondered about that.

As someone with acting experience (I've always loved acting and I did it for three years in High School) I'd like to point out that it is not uncommon for actors to also play a role in coming up with the characters background and story arc. In fact, we had to do it in my classes pretty much anytime we were given a new role to play. One of the best examples of this in Trek would be Andrew Robinson, and Garak. In fact, A Stitch in Time was taken from all of the background that AG came up with over the years. Another good example is Eko from Lost. To the best of my knowledge, the majority of the character's background came from the actor.
 
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B-4 is still intact and functional at last report, though it's uncertain whether he'll ever feature in a story again. As far as is known, he's the last surviving Soong-type android.

(Trying to get back on topic here) So does this mean that future books will...

a) accept Countdown as semi-canon and place Data on the ENT-E as captain or...
b) ignore it and B4 is still a savant of a powerful android murmuring Irving Berlin.

Because I don't write Trek literature I'm very curious as to what kind of restrictions are imposed on writers in terms of continuing the stories in book format. I would have liked to think that there were no restrictions and that a writer could do with Data whatever they wanted.
 
a) accept Countdown as semi-canon and place Data on the ENT-E as captain or...
b) ignore it and B4 is still a savant of a powerful android murmuring Irving Berlin.
Let's not use the term "semi-canon." That's rather like being "semi-pregnant."

As to the question of whether authors exploring that timeframe will choose to utilize the events of Countdown as authoritative, the answer is... it depends. If a particular writer sees a good storytelling opportunity which would result in B4 gaining enough intelligence to command the Enterprise, so much the better. But if someone has a better idea of how to portray the events leading up to the destruction of Romulus, they're not bound to follow Countdown's version of events.

Because I don't write Trek literature I'm very curious as to what kind of restrictions are imposed on writers in terms of continuing the stories in book format. I would have liked to think that there were no restrictions and that a writer could do with Data whatever they wanted.

Of course writers have "restrictions," inasmuch as all story ideas must be pre-approved by the editors at Pocket and by CBS/Paramount Licensing. But if the story idea is sound, exciting and will likely sell well, most ideas get approved with a minimum of hassle.
 
(Trying to get back on topic here) So does this mean that future books will...

a) accept Countdown as semi-canon and place Data on the ENT-E as captain or...
b) ignore it and B4 is still a savant of a powerful android murmuring Irving Berlin.

There is no "will." Both of those are possible, and several other things are possible too. As Geoff says, it depends on what makes for a good story. We're not obligated to acknowledge Countdown, nor are we obligated to ignore it.

Because I don't write Trek literature I'm very curious as to what kind of restrictions are imposed on writers in terms of continuing the stories in book format. I would have liked to think that there were no restrictions and that a writer could do with Data whatever they wanted.

The only restriction, usually, is that we have to stay consistent with what was established onscreen. So we can't say that Nemesis never happened, say, unless it's overtly an alternate-timeline tale. Beyond that, yes, we can pretty much do whatever we think makes a good story so long as it doesn't conflict with canon.

Would any of us want to resurrect Data or turn B-4 into Data 2.0? Based on anecdotal evidence, I don't think you'd find much interest in those options among Trek novelists. If you ask me, it would be by far the least interesting thing to do with B-4. It can make for a nice moment of wish fulfillment in a brief story like SNW10's "The Very Model" or as a subplot in a TNG farewell story like Countdown, but novels allow for more in-depth storytelling, and so a novel storyline involving B-4 should be something more complex.
 
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