Defiant For The Borg? Makes No Sense

[Saquist]

Hmmm.
It's possible the shields got up.
But I don't think it's likely. They took to many hits. 3 Attack ship firing three beams. I think we saw 6 hits total but Defiant was shaking like an epiletic seizure.

The Vorcha hit defiant maybe 3 times and I believe they could still raise shields.

When did we not see ships shaking like an epileptic seizure when under fire from ships of similar tech level?


The bug ships would individually be no match for the Defiant ... 2 of them yes ... 3 of them is tipping the scales into the bugs favor (although the crew was able to fight 3 bug ships and win at one occasion taking serious damage).
In any event, the main point was that the shields were not instantly penetrated like on previous ships but were on and holding against the beams in question and losing intensity rapidly (a barrage from 3 ships will likely drain your shields quite quickly if the opponent is on a similar tech development)..

I question that,
When Traveling to the Founder Home world they put 50 attack ships on Defiant to make sure she behaved.

I've put the Defiant as shown on screen in simulator. Defiant (tactically) is even superior to 50 attack ships. Without shields though Defiant doesn't withstand 3 attack ships, systems go out too fast.

 

[Deks]

Hmmm.
It's possible the shields got up.
But I don't think it's likely. They took to many hits. 3 Attack ship firing three beams. I think we saw 6 hits total but Defiant was shaking like an epiletic seizure.

The Vorcha hit defiant maybe 3 times and I believe they could still raise shields.

When did we not see ships shaking like an epileptic seizure when under fire from ships of similar tech level?


The bug ships would individually be no match for the Defiant ... 2 of them yes ... 3 of them is tipping the scales into the bugs favor (although the crew was able to fight 3 bug ships and win at one occasion taking serious damage).
In any event, the main point was that the shields were not instantly penetrated like on previous ships but were on and holding against the beams in question and losing intensity rapidly (a barrage from 3 ships will likely drain your shields quite quickly if the opponent is on a similar tech development)..

I question that,
When Traveling to the Founder Home world they put 50 attack ships on Defiant to make sure she behaved.

I've put the Defiant as shown on screen in simulator. Defiant (tactically) is even superior to 50 attack ships. Without shields though Defiant doesn't withstand 3 attack ships, systems go out too fast.

If that was the case, then SF could have merely sent all of their constructed Defiants to battle the Dominion war and won.

Obviously this is not how it came to be.

Putting 50 attack ships to guard 1 ship that was considered to be a thread around the Founders Homeworld is typical of the Dominion.
Remember that also at one point they also pondered on the idea (well, Garak did) of firing quantum torpedoes on the planet and obliterating the Founders when countered by Worf himself who said that for one thing they'd be blown into bits very quickly as a result of their actions ... and they'd be committing genocide.

The battle with the 3 bug ships where the Defiant won barely was during the Dominion War and after they already captured the attack ship for study and adapted their shields ... so I would say that the Defiant is able to go up against 3 of the bugs and win with good tactics ... but at the beginning in 'The Search' the crew was relatively inexperienced in ship to ship combat actually and were caught off guard.

 

[Saquist]

When did we not see ships shaking like an epileptic seizure when under fire from ships of similar tech level?


The bug ships would individually be no match for the Defiant ... 2 of them yes ... 3 of them is tipping the scales into the bugs favor (although the crew was able to fight 3 bug ships and win at one occasion taking serious damage).
In any event, the main point was that the shields were not instantly penetrated like on previous ships but were on and holding against the beams in question and losing intensity rapidly (a barrage from 3 ships will likely drain your shields quite quickly if the opponent is on a similar tech development)..

I question that,
When Traveling to the Founder Home world they put 50 attack ships on Defiant to make sure she behaved.

I've put the Defiant as shown on screen in simulator. Defiant (tactically) is even superior to 50 attack ships. Without shields though Defiant doesn't withstand 3 attack ships, systems go out too fast.

If that was the case, then SF could have merely sent all of their constructed Defiants to battle the Dominion war and won.

Obviously this is not how it came to be.

Putting 50 attack ships to guard 1 ship that was considered to be a thread around the Founders Homeworld is typical of the Dominion.
Remember that also at one point they also pondered on the idea (well, Garak did) of firing quantum torpedoes on the planet and obliterating the Founders when countered by Worf himself who said that for one thing they'd be blown into bits very quickly as a result of their actions ... and they'd be committing genocide.

The battle with the 3 bug ships where the Defiant won barely was during the Dominion War and after they already captured the attack ship for study and adapted their shields ... so I would say that the Defiant is able to go up against 3 of the bugs and win with good tactics ... but at the beginning in 'The Search' the crew was relatively inexperienced in ship to ship combat actually and were caught off guard.

Even the Defiant Class can't take all that Fire power, besides wining against 50 warships would require cloak for all those ships not just the Defiant.

Deks the numbers are in favor of the Defiant against the attack ship.
It takes Defiant 3 shots to destroy 1 attack ship. 1.5-2 seconds max of firing. Unless you're saying that 4 of 5 attack ships are going to bring down Defiant in faster than Defiant can whip around and face the next opponent then it seems pretty clear, 3 attack ships are no match for Defiant, ever. Defiant has faced far more heavier fire power.

 

[Deks]

You are forgetting that while Dominion bug ships may be easy to destroy by the Defiant, it doesn't mean they won't have powerful weapons.
In numerous episodes of DS9, Dominion attack ships in group DID present a problem for the Defiant.

Numerous ships in Trek were weak in terms that they were easy enough to destroy but presented a problem because their weapons were quite powerful.

In 'the Search' the Defiant was caught off guard because the attack ships fired on it while still cloacked ... forcing it to decloack, the Defiant raised it's shields and suffered numerous blows before getting off a shot which managed to destroy a bug ship with ease (you noticed how quickly the bugs veered off when they saw how powerful the Defiant was in contrast to their previous engagements with SF ships).

My point is that Defiants shields were holding during 'the Search' but were overpowered because Dominion weapons were still quite powerful and fired from 2 remaining ships.
The crew was being tossed all over the place giving them no time to react.
Yes ... the ship can go up against multiple targets and win ... but as I said, when being pummelled from 3 different directions with powerful weapons, it will take tactics to get you out of the mess, even if you are able to cut through the enemy with relative ease.
Those bugs were quite maneuverable ... on par with the Defiant more/less.

 

[Saquist]

I have to be honest..
I know of no situation where Defiant was faced with emminent destruction from an attack ship or attack ships except in The Search Part II which they were likely doing without shields and then of course the small craft, Breen, that brought down the original Defiant.

Also NOTE:

Less powerful ships (older) have gone up against the attack ship and not suffered anywhere near as much damage. For instance the Centaur which is quite old as designs go. (Granted Sisko was not trying to destroy it but Reynolds didn't run from one attack ship.)

But truely,
The only ships I've ever seen destroyed by Attack ship fire is a Cardassian Galor. I've never seen a Federation ships destroyed by them. If that's true it's a powerful statement.

 

[Deks]

The U.S.S. Odyssey (a Galaxy class ship) fought 3 Dominion Attack ships and got destroyed.
Granted, this was greatly contributed due to their shields at the time being completely ineffective against Dominion weapons.
However, one other notable exception is the fact that the bugs did not suffer virtually any real damage from the Odyseey's phasers to begin with.
The Galaxy class in question was heavily crippled in a short amount of time and while the Dominion bugs could have destroyed them easily if they continued firing, they wanted to demonstrate to which lengths they will go to eliminate their opponents by ramming one bug ship into the Galaxy class and annihilating it as a result.
The Centaur may have been an old ship, but it was modified to repel Dominion weapons.
Remember that before the war started the U.S.S. Lakota ... Excelsior class ship was heavily upgraded and ended up being on par with the Defiant, fighting it to a standstill (actually, the Lakota might have won had the Defiant not have Ablative armour in place).
So the Centaur likely underwent upgrades just like most older ships so they can make an actual difference in the war.

Even though the Defiant was at an advantage due to it's overpowered weapons in 'The Search' it still got crippled/captured as a result of being under fire from 3 bug ships and could have been destroyed, but was not simply because the Founders didn't want it so.

Point being: Dominion attack ships might have been relatively easy by SF ships to destroy once the war began ... but the Dominion had hundreds of them at disposal and if SF is able to create small ships that pack a punch ... what prevents the Dominion from doing the same (SF actually picked the idea from them to begin with).

Also ... there was an episode of DS9 where the Defiant was pursued by several bug ships and chased into a nebula I think.
I cannot recall the exact details of the episode, but I recall the Defiant suffered large damage due to their previous battle and was threatened by 2 bugs ... but they were able to destroy one with a phaser from the Deflector I think ... and the other with a carefully placed quantum torpedo as a mine.
My memory of the episode is sketchy at best, so don't quote me.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I have to be honest..
I know of no situation where Defiant was faced with emminent destruction from an attack ship or attack ships except in The Search Part II

You're forgetting "One Little Ship" where Defiant was heavily damaged and even CAPTURED by the Jem'hadar. And there's also the little matter of Starship Down, which--though not exactly a fair comparison--did show the Defiant having a rough time with only a handful of Jem'hadar ships.

Besides, Defiant never had to go up against them until the war had already started, at which point they had already figured out how to make their shields effective against Dominion Weapons. Even the Odyssey would have fared better with those modifications.

 

[Saquist]

Starship Down might be the exception with an exception.

 

[Vanyel]

I have to be honest..
I know of no situation where Defiant was faced with emminent destruction from an attack ship or attack ships except in The Search Part II which they were likely doing without shields and then of course the small craft, Breen, that brought down the original Defiant.

In The Search, the Defiant did raise shields. The Romulan in charge of the cloak says when the shields failed. There was at least one other mention of the shields failing or falling. Watched it a few days ago.

 

[Deks]

I have to be honest..
I know of no situation where Defiant was faced with emminent destruction from an attack ship or attack ships except in The Search Part II which they were likely doing without shields and then of course the small craft, Breen, that brought down the original Defiant.

In The Search, the Defiant did raise shields. The Romulan in charge of the cloak says when the shields failed. There was at least one other mention of the shields failing or falling. Watched it a few days ago.

Which only further supports the premise that the anti-Borg technology present on the Defiant was already sufficient in protecting the ship against phased-polaron beams.
Of course the shields would still suffer damage, but the weapons didn't simply go through the shields as if they were not there.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I have to be honest..
I know of no situation where Defiant was faced with emminent destruction from an attack ship or attack ships except in The Search Part II which they were likely doing without shields and then of course the small craft, Breen, that brought down the original Defiant.

In The Search, the Defiant did raise shields. The Romulan in charge of the cloak says when the shields failed. There was at least one other mention of the shields failing or falling. Watched it a few days ago.

Which only further supports the premise that the anti-Borg technology present on the Defiant was already sufficient in protecting the ship against phased-polaron beams.
Of course the shields would still suffer damage, but the weapons didn't simply go through the shields as if they were not there.

First of all, why would their anti-borg technology protect against polaron beams? I don't recall the Borg ever using that particular weapon.

Second of all, the greater resistance to Jem'hadar weapons is either an example of Hero Shields (the ship surviving a little longer just because The Cast is aboard) or could be interpreted as a boon of Defiant's thicker-than-usual armor. The shields certainly didn't hold up any better than Odyssey, and in that case we're not even sure whether the Dominion weapons PENETRATED the shields or simply blew huge holes in them on the way to striking the hull.

 

[Saquist]

I have to be honest..
I know of no situation where Defiant was faced with emminent destruction from an attack ship or attack ships except in The Search Part II which they were likely doing without shields and then of course the small craft, Breen, that brought down the original Defiant.

In The Search, the Defiant did raise shields. The Romulan in charge of the cloak says when the shields failed. There was at least one other mention of the shields failing or falling. Watched it a few days ago.

I just watched the section of the episode.

The Romulan reports. "Direct hit on the port Nacelle."

Sisko says: "We'll have to save the speculation for later. Disengage the cloak and raise the shields and fire at my command."

Defiant them takes a total of 13 hits as the show comes back from commercial.( No indication that any missed)

The Romulan says Communications and long range sensors are out.

Sisko ask. What's the status of the warp drive.

The Romulan says. The starboard power coupling is destroyed. I'm trying to rerout main power.

Defiant then destroys one of the ships.
After evasive manuver Delta V Sisko says they need to get warp power back.

Odo trying to convince Kira to abandon the ship says if main power is off line then the shield are out too.
----------------------

So one of the 13 shots or those shots combined took out the starboard power coupling and starved the ship of power to shields.

Defiant was fighting shield less.
And if the opening pass was any indication of Attack ship Volleys then Defiant was taking at least 4.333 shots every 3.1 seconds from at least one fighter. Then 3 more attack ships enterted the fight.

Now I'm not sure if Defiant had ablative armor at this point.
But the those Attack ships were pretty weak.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So one of the 13 shots or those shots combined took out the starboard power coupling and starved the ship of power to shields.

Irrelevant, since the power coupling was hit with shields UP. It's pretty clear that Defiant's shields were no more effective than Odyssey's shields, but Defiant fared slightly better just by virtue of superior firepower and armor.

OTOH, Odyssey took a similar beating in "The Jem'Hadar" and was still mobile. Contrast with the Defiant, which was effectively disabled in this battle.

 

[Saquist]

Irrelevant, since the power coupling was hit with shields UP. It's pretty clear that Defiant's shields were no more effective than Odyssey's shields, but Defiant fared slightly better just by virtue of superior firepower and armor.

OTOH, Odyssey took a similar beating in "The Jem'Hadar" and was still mobile. Contrast with the Defiant, which was effectively disabled in this battle.

Irrelevant means having no bearing on or connection with the subject at issue.

Your comment suggest that Defiant suffered a similar shield casualty as Odyssey. However the next time we see Defiant fight the Jemhadar it comes to the aid of Garak and Odo during the Cardassian/ Romulan Invasion of the Dominion Defiant's shields hold quite well.

You say irrelevent because you assume:
1. Defiant's shields actually were raised.
We recieve no reports of shield strength during the fight.
Assuming that that the order for shields must mean the shields were raised is false logic.

2. You might also be assuming that if Defiants shields were up then they were at 100%

As I said no comments on shield strength were made during the fight. Even if the shields were up it is highly probable that they were not of sufficient strength to repel the attack to stop further damage.

3. You're assuming that a device or system can't fail after the shields were raised. That's not logical. We know all manner of surges can get through the shield. The power coupling could have collapsed just due to the damage it had already taken.

Between Defiant and Odyssey:
-Both ships were mobile.
-It is inconclussive if Defiant had it's shields up. Odyssey had no shields.

Defiant was 1 vs 5 In the end
Odyssey was 1 vs 3

Defiant subcomb to enemy fire.
Odyssey was rammed.

Defiant was not destroyed.
Odyssey was destroyed.

These are the facts. It is not irrelevancy that is at issue it is falsehood. "since the power coupling was hit with shields UP" -newtypealpha

That is not a fact.
It is an assumption, an unsupported assumption at that.

 

[Vanyel]

So one of the 13 shots or those shots combined took out the starboard power coupling and starved the ship of power to shields.

Irrelevant, since the power coupling was hit with shields UP. It's pretty clear that Defiant's shields were no more effective than Odyssey's shields, but Defiant fared slightly better just by virtue of superior firepower and armor.

OTOH, Odyssey took a similar beating in "The Jem'Hadar" and was still mobile. Contrast with the Defiant, which was effectively disabled in this battle.

It could also be an indication in a change of tactics by the Jem'Hadar. In The Jem'Hadar, they were out to make a statement: Stay out of our space. In The Search, the Founders were now aware of Odo and the potential threat of the Federation and other powers of the AQ and wanted to see how the AQ powers would react to a Dominion presence in the AQ.

If that is case in The Search, they set out to destroy the Odyssey. The one screen evidence indicates that only one nacelle was hit which would either prevent the Odyssey from being able to go warp or only go at low warp speeds. The runabouts were treated with more care. If the Odyssey's shields couldn't hold against the Dominion weapons neither should the shields of the Runabouts. The Odyssey took a heavy pounding, her XO reports that there are casualty reports coming in from decks 4,5,8 & 17 and a plasma leak in the port nacelle; all after the first run at the odyssey. While a hit to the much smaller Runabout caused less damage, it was also hit by a weapon that looked more like a plasma torpedo than the phased polaron beams used on the Odyssey.[Edit: The same weapon FX were used by the Dominion ships throughout the battle. Why they were called a beam is...odd.]

So, in a tactic like the one used in the second battle of Chin'toka, the Runabouts were spared to spread the word of how far the Dominion was willing to go, and that their weaponry was different enough to make AQ defensive shielding useless.

While in The Search, the point was to capture The Defiant, allow Odo to go to the nebula and meet his people, and experiment on the Defiant's crew to see how they would react to a continued Dominion presence. If that is the case the Defiant was treated with a lot more care than the Odyssey and could explain why she seemed to fare a bit better in battle. The Dominion attack ships weren't weaker than the ones used on the Odyssey, they were just holding back, and they let Odo's shuttle escape.

 

[Vanyel]

You say irrelevent because you assume:
1. Defiant's shields actually were raised.
We recieve no reports of shield strength during the fight.
Assuming that that the order for shields must mean the shields were raised is false logic.

But we do hear the report when the shields fell, and, please correct me if I'm wrong, after the shields fell the Jem'Hadar began to board the ship. That should be enough on screen evidence that the shields were raised.

2. You might also be assuming that if Defiants shields were up then they were at 100%

As I said no comments on shield strength were made during the fight. Even if the shields were up it is highly probable that they were not of sufficient strength to repel the attack to stop further damage.

There is no evidence one way or the other on the strength of the shields when they were raised; it is possible they came up at 100%.

3. You're assuming that a device or system can't fail after the shields were raised. That's not logical. We know all manner of surges can get through the shield. The power coupling could have collapsed just due to the damage it had already taken.

True, we can only assume why the coupling failed.

Between Defiant and Odyssey:
-Both ships were mobile.
-It is inconclussive if Defiant had it's shields up. Odyssey had no shields.

It's not inconclusive, her shields were raised. There would be no reason for the Romulan to mention the shields failing if they were not up in the first place.

These are the facts. It is not irrelevancy that is at issue it is falsehood. "since the power coupling was hit with shields UP" -newtypealpha

That is not a fact.
It is an assumption, an unsupported assumption at that.

But didn't you say:

Even if the shields were up it is highly probable that they were not of sufficient strength to repel the attack to stop further damage.

and

We know all manner of surges can get through the shield.

Those two statements would mean the power coupling could be hit either directly by weapons fire, or indirectly by a power surge, while the shields were up. Right?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You say irrelevent because you assume:
1. Defiant's shields actually were raised.
We recieve no reports of shield strength during the fight.
Assuming that that the order for shields must mean the shields were raised is false logic.

We don't receive reports of shield strength on the Odyssey either. Yet their shields were definitely up in The Search, as Vanyel just pointed out.

What's conclusive here is that Defiant fared little better than Odyssey in this battle for whatever reason, while it did significantly better in later engagements. Ergo, prior to modification and enhancement, Defiant's shields were no better against the Jem'hadar than any other starship. Why would you expect it to be any different? Starfleet had never even HEARD of the Jem'hadar when Defiant was designed.

-It is inconclussive if Defiant had it's shields up. Odyssey had no shields.

Completely wrong. Odyssey's shields were up, but INEFFECTIVE. The same appears to be true of Defiant, especially if damage to the famous "starboard power coupling" is intentional shooting by skilled Jem'hadar gunners trying to disable the ship's engines.

 

[Deks]

First of all, why would their anti-borg technology protect against polaron beams? I don't recall the Borg ever using that particular weapon.

Second of all, the greater resistance to Jem'hadar weapons is either an example of Hero Shields (the ship surviving a little longer just because The Cast is aboard) or could be interpreted as a boon of Defiant's thicker-than-usual armor. The shields certainly didn't hold up any better than Odyssey, and in that case we're not even sure whether the Dominion weapons PENETRATED the shields or simply blew huge holes in them on the way to striking the hull.

The anti-Borg tech might have protected the Defiant from phased polaron beams because the shields were of a different configuration ... specifically meant to repel Borg weapons and their shield draining tractor beams which might have properties similar to the Dominion weaponry.

Also ... as another poster already wrote, ship systems (even crucial ones at times) suffer damage with the shields up (evidenced on screen on multiple occasions) ... so I fail to see the point of saying that the battle in 'The Search' was identical to the one the Odyssey faced when in fact it was not.

The Defiant's shields would have been drained fast and internal systems would have suffered damage because Dominion ship weapons pack a punch, despite the ships themselves being easy to kill by the Defiant.

As for the ablative hull armour ... that would have helped in ship's survivability yes, but not for such a long time as witnessed in 'The Search' if the shields were not effective against Dominion weaponry.

Also ... the Defiant in that episode was essentially a 'patched up' prototype.
Remember that when Sisko first brought it to Ds9, he told O'Brien to take a look at the ship and try to stabilize it.

So even if the shields were up and effective against the bugs weapons, there's a possibility the systems suffered more damage than usual is due to the very bugs the ship itself had (at least until they were ironed out and SF began full-scale production).

 

[Saquist]

You say irrelevent because you assume:
1. Defiant's shields actually were raised.
We recieve no reports of shield strength during the fight.
Assuming that that the order for shields must mean the shields were raised is false logic.

We don't receive reports of shield strength on the Odyssey either. Yet their shields were definitely up in The Search, as Vanyel just pointed out.

What's conclusive here is that Defiant fared little better than Odyssey in this battle for whatever reason, while it did significantly better in later engagements. Ergo, prior to modification and enhancement, Defiant's shields were no better against the Jem'hadar than any other starship. Why would you expect it to be any different? Starfleet had never even HEARD of the Jem'hadar when Defiant was designed.

-It is inconclussive if Defiant had it's shields up. Odyssey had no shields.

Completely wrong. Odyssey's shields were up, but INEFFECTIVE. The same appears to be true of Defiant, especially if damage to the famous "starboard power coupling" is intentional shooting by skilled Jem'hadar gunners trying to disable the ship's engines.

You say irrelevent because you assume:
1. Defiant's shields actually were raised.
We recieve no reports of shield strength during the fight.
Assuming that that the order for shields must mean the shields were raised is false logic.

But we do hear the report when the shields fell, and, please correct me if I'm wrong, after the shields fell the Jem'Hadar began to board the ship. That should be enough on screen evidence that the shields were raised.

2. You might also be assuming that if Defiants shields were up then they were at 100%

As I said no comments on shield strength were made during the fight. Even if the shields were up it is highly probable that they were not of sufficient strength to repel the attack to stop further damage.

There is no evidence one way or the other on the strength of the shields when they were raised; it is possible they came up at 100%.



True, we can only assume why the coupling failed.



It's not inconclusive, her shields were raised. There would be no reason for the Romulan to mention the shields failing if they were not up in the first place.



But didn't you say:

Even if the shields were up it is highly probable that they were not of sufficient strength to repel the attack to stop further damage.

and

We know all manner of surges can get through the shield.

Those two statements would mean the power coupling could be hit either directly by weapons fire, or indirectly by a power surge, while the shields were up. Right?

I review the record to completion of the scene.
Vanyel is correct. I was in error. Apparently the Romulan does note after the Odo Kira scene that the shields had collapse.

@Newtype Alpha

This is irrelevant because Defiant's shields were definitely up. But it's also irrelevant because Captain Keogh order shield power to weapons. Which is why the collision was completely fatal. Odyssey had no shields up at all.

 

[T'Girl]

Disagree. It was the combined output of several ships, firing phasers, and both form of torpedos that dug a hole and eventual destroyed the FC cube. If anything StarTrek has shown time and again that torpedos really aren't that powerful, I've read estimates of explosive yields of hundreds of mega-tonnes, but what we're seeing seem more like a few tens of tonnes of chemical explosive. The Defiant isn't a torpedo boat, it's a gunship.