"My first time north of the Mason-Dixon Line..."

[RoJoHen]

I had this bar guest last night who was in town on business. He was from North Carolina, and by the end of the night (he had been in town several days) he opened up to me about how impressed he was with the hospitality of our town. He was about 40-years old and had never been north of the Mason-Dixon Line before. All he knew was from random news stories he had seen about Chicago (we are actually 3 hours west of Chicago). I'm not entirely sure what he was getting at, but he was so surprised by the kinds of people he found here. Everyone was nice to him. He went to several bars and never once saw a bar fight. Random strangers were talking to him and occasionally buying him drinks. One guy heard his southern accent and asked where he was from. He was expecting the guy to pick a fight with him over it, and he was shocked that all he got into was a friendly conversation.

I honestly didn't understand his surprise, and I thought it was weird that he actually used the term "Mason-Dixon Line" when telling me all of this. What kind of visit was he expecting to have? What kind of people was he expecting to meet? Did he think he was going to be harrassed because of slavery or something? Was he planning to get his ass kicked because his ancestors may have owned a plantation?

Can any posters here (maybe some who live BELOW the Mason-Dixon Line) shed some light on this for me? I'm utterly confounded.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Can any posters here (maybe some who live BELOW the Mason-Dixon Line) shed some light on this for me? I'm utterly confounded.

I've lived in South Carolina for almost 20 years now. But before that, when I lived with my dad who was a contractor for nuclear plants, I moved 22 times in 15 years, all over the north and the south. And I think I have some insight.

The reputation of "Yankees" in the south is that they are frantically-paced, cold, unfriendly, irreligious people to whom family and hometown life is unimportant. Of course, this is an exaggeration, to say the least, but I'll break it down:

Frantically-paced: Yankees, in my experience, tend toward more professional behavior than Southerners. They don't want to know about your family or your background or sit around and bs, they just want to focus on the business at hand, get it done, and move on. I mostly see this as a positive, myself, but you can see that it would be off-putting to some.

Cold: Partially a case of confusing a people with their environment, I think, but also probably having to do with Yankees tending to speak either clearly and simply, without a lot of "character" to their speech, or with accents that seem clipped, like those of of Jersey or Mass.

Unfriendly: The reputation, deserved or not, is that Yankees aren't interested in you unless they can sell you something, steal something from you, or, you've made them antagonistic toward you - either by speaking with that slow drawl that makes you sound retarded to them, or by taking a slow, Southern pace in traffic or walking in the mall.

Irreligious: Yankees are more tolerant of religious diversity, which, to good Southern Christian folk, means that they are a bunch of heathens.

Family and hometown life is unimportant: The more industrialized North has resulted in more people there migrating from industrial job to industrial job, seemingly without regard to maintaining connections to family or the town they grew up in. Southerners sometimes don't seem to realize that is occurring here, too - it's just taking longer for it to reach the same levels, since the South was and is more agricultural.

Hope that helps to clear things up?

 

[Gepard]

^Sounds like at least half of that is lingering impressions left over from interacting with carpetbaggers.

 

[Triskelion]

^ ha

The Ohio River demarcates not only a difference in regions but also in traditional culture; Northern being merchant culture, southern being agrarian.

Both sides have their stereotypes of the other. The typical jokes go:

Northerner: So you're from the South right? But you're wearing shoes!
Southerner: So you're a Yankee? You a lawyer?

The contrast of cultures is marked. Northern culture is terse, which to a southerner sounds rude or curt - being short with people doesn't fly in the small town South, where a stranger is likely to strike up a conversation with you in a convenient store. But the slow, personal, drawling speech of a southerner may come across as less intelligent to a northerner, and socially naive.

It looks like the difference between urban and rural culture - northerners being "law-abiding city folk" and southerners being "good ol' boys" who solve their problems themselves.

Both cultures contain the entire gamut of niceness and meanness, intelligence and ignorance and willful ignorance. But by and large, you can get around both cultures and meet some really fantastic people. Of course, there's also the regions of various "Old World" cultures that also contribute to "local color" differences, for example:

Portuguese in New England
Germans in Ohio & Pennsylvania
S Americans in the American South
French in Louisiana
etc

And as usual among human beings, they have more in common than in difference.

 

[Gepard]

^ ha

It's probably true. Though I'm not terribly well-studied on the subject, I've heard it argued that a lot of the cultural differences between north and south were entrenched and codified as a direct result of post-Civil War reconstruction.

 

[USS Triumphant]

It's probably true. Though I'm not terribly well-studied on the subject, I've heard it argued that a lot of the cultural differences between north and south were entrenched and codified as a direct result of post-Civil War reconstruction.

I really think a lot of the differences were in place before the Civil War. Which would be part of why the war happened.

But, I'll say this - I really don't think the hostility stirred up during the war, combined with the North destroying some of the major industrial centers that the South did have, setting back metropolitan development, helped at all. (When I first moved down here, it really did seem like I had moved to the late 60s or early 70s in too many ways.) And in my opinion, the very worst legacy of the war is how proud some people down here are to be ignorant, almost like thinking and learning are things that Yankees do.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Allow me to take a moment to state on behalf of Holdfast that I like where this thread is going. Oh, it seems benign enough now, but the fury will soon be unleashed.

 

[JustKate]

Your story doesn't surprise me, RoJoHen - for two reasons. One is that there are still among many Southerners certain...biases about "Yankees." I grew up in Southern California and live in Indiana now, but I have lots of Southern relatives, and I know whereof I speak. The perception among a lot of Southerners is that Yankees are rude and unfriendly. The reality is that what constitutes politeness and friendliness in the North often varies from what constitutes politeness and friendliness in the South - but just because those standards are different doesn't mean there aren't any standards. That can be a hard lesson to learn, though.

But the other reason is that Northerners have certain...biases about Southerners, too. Lots and lots and lots. I mean, they'll visit Atlanta or Charleston and they'll actually be surprised to find culture and art and a lack of "Whites Only" signs on drinking fountains.

So what I'm saying is, it goes both ways. The real problem isn't that Southerners have unreasonable biases against Northerners. It's that people have unreasonable biases against other people and some of those biases are based on region of origin and accent.

 

[Kestra]

I remember partway through college (I was studying in Chicago) I took a trip to Dallas with my parents. I was blown away by how friendly everyone was. They were pleasant, and charming, and interested. Even if it was just a retail clerk or something. I was used to being around people who seemed angry if you asked them a question even if it was what they were paid to be doing. It felt a bit odd to be polite to people and have the politeness completely mirrored back.

Of course now I realize that a lot of my experiences were not just about being in Chicago, but the particular university I attended in Chicago. I do think there might be a general difference in hospitality, but it's probably not all that significant.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

But the other reason is that Northerners have certain...biases about Southerners, too. Lots and lots and lots. I mean, they'll visit Atlanta or Charleston and they'll actually be surprised to find culture and art and a lack of "Whites Only" signs on drinking fountains.

Indeed...this is what I was going to say. Having lived in both places for extended periods of time, I can tell you that BOTH sides still seem to resent each other.

I would say I got made fun of more up North because of not having the exact accent everyone else had (and it's not like I even used bad grammar or anything, or had a very pronounced accent then, either). And the way you'd hear some people talk about the South, you'd think that all Southerners were dirt-poor ignorant racists who are going to bring out the torches and pitchforks if anybody even SLIGHTLY different comes around. People think the South is all "Deliverance."

Hell, I see that on this board ALL THE TIME, and believe me, it gets old fast. So if that guy had been online at all, or seen the way the South is treated in the entertainment media--all I can say is I don't blame him for being uneasy and, indeed, expecting mistreatment.

I can tell you that I have witnessed racism equally in both parts of the country. It's NOT just a Southern problem. In fact, the one thing the South has going for it is that history has made us openly ACKNOWLEDGE our problems. The North, however, has problems, but is too busy turning its nose up at the South to clean up their own damn backyard. This, needless to say, does not make a very good impression for those of us who have lived in both places and can see the difference.

I can tell you, however, that I have met many good, intelligent, and cultured people in all parts of the country, and therefore to dog on one region of the country as though it's worse than all the rest really is not reasonable.

 

[Triskelion]

I loved both places equally, being from both (mother a yankee, father a rebel, living half my life in each).

Where will I raise my daugher?

The south.

And at the risk of sounding like a nutter, if the world went to crap and you had to live off the land, I'd rather take my chances in the Appalachians than anywhere else in the US. It's off the radar and quite a place.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

RoJo, the reputation of the north (from southerners) is that they're rude and unfriendly, the reputation of the south (from northerners) is that they're all a bunch of ignorant hicks. Neither are true, but I know plenty of people who never want to go to the south for the same reason this guy was hesitant to go to the north.

And when I'm in the south, I'll mention the Mason-Dixon line. It's as good a divider as there is if you're on the East coast. The only exception is where I live, since I managed to be east of the Mason-Dixon line. There's another North/South divide over here. The line ends at the Maryland border, so I wonder what those west of MD use as the divider.

 

[RoJoHen]

And when I'm in the south, I'll mention the Mason-Dixon line. It's as good a divider as there is if you're on the East coast. The only exception is where I live, since I managed to be east of the Mason-Dixon line. There's another North/South divide over here. The line ends at the Maryland border, so I wonder what those west of MD use as the divider.

I honestly never even knew where the Mason-Dixon line was until I had the conversation with this guy. It's not exactly a huge landmark in Illinois.

 

[Lindley]

I loved both places equally, being from both (mother a yankee, father a rebel, living half my life in each).

Where will I raise my daugher?

The south.

And at the risk of sounding like a nutter, if the world went to crap and you had to live off the land, I'd rather take my chances in the Appalachians than anywhere else in the US. It's off the radar and quite a place.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, The Appalachians extend all the way up the east coast. My family has a place in Vermont that's close to the Appalachian trail.

 

[RoJoHen]

I loved both places equally, being from both (mother a yankee, father a rebel, living half my life in each).

Where will I raise my daugher?

The south.

And at the risk of sounding like a nutter, if the world went to crap and you had to live off the land, I'd rather take my chances in the Appalachians than anywhere else in the US. It's off the radar and quite a place.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, The Appalachians extend all the way up the east coast. My family has a place in Vermont that's close to the Appalachian trail.

Indeed. The Appalachians are pretty large. And a pain in the ass to drive through!

 

[Canadave]

I loved both places equally, being from both (mother a yankee, father a rebel, living half my life in each).

Where will I raise my daugher?

The south.

And at the risk of sounding like a nutter, if the world went to crap and you had to live off the land, I'd rather take my chances in the Appalachians than anywhere else in the US. It's off the radar and quite a place.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, The Appalachians extend all the way up the east coast. My family has a place in Vermont that's close to the Appalachian trail.

Not to mention they're somewhat geologically connected with New York's Adirondak and Catskill Mountains, which further connect to the Laurentian Mountains in Quebec. It's actually an extremely large highland that runs from Tennessee all the way up to northern Quebec, only broken up by a few river valleys, most notably the St. Lawrence.

 

[nevermore]

RoJo, the reputation of the north (from southerners) is that they're rude and unfriendly, the reputation of the south (from northerners) is that they're all a bunch of ignorant hicks. Neither are true, but I know plenty of people who never want to go to the south for the same reason this guy was hesitant to go to the north.

And when I'm in the south, I'll mention the Mason-Dixon line. It's as good a divider as there is if you're on the East coast. The only exception is where I live, since I managed to be east of the Mason-Dixon line. There's another North/South divide over here. The line ends at the Maryland border, so I wonder what those west of MD use as the divider.

Yeah, except most people think it's the southern MD border, not the northern one. The thing is that, going by the Mason-Dixon, MD is southern, but it's not a confederate state and culturally, demographically, politically, economically, and industrially, it has more in common with the northeast than the southeast. We have some southern elements, but the difference between MD and VA is vast. Real Southerners would never accept MD as part of the South. Generally speaking, when a Southerner says he's never been past the "Mason-Dixon", he means that he's never been north of DC at best, probably Richmond. At least, that's what I gathered from going to school in VA.

We prefer the three-part division of Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, Southeast. It's much more accurate in denoting cultural, demographic and historical realities. It also solves that little "what the hell is Delaware?" issue.

 

[kimc]

Indeed. The Appalachians are pretty large. And a pain in the ass to drive through!

But pretty.

 

[Lindley]

the difference between MD and VA is vast.

Not so much Northern VA, but then the rest of Virginia looks at us funny too.....

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

the difference between MD and VA is vast.

Not so much Northern VA, but then the rest of Virginia looks at us funny too.....

Yeah, really. As far as I'm concerned, the North begins when you cross the line into Fairfax County. (But these days, I think you can make the case for Manassas.)