I liked 'Stargate:Atlantis" better than "Battlestar Galatica"!

[3D Master]

Yep, right, you're the first person to discuss Vulcan sexuality in this forum...did I say first? I meant, one thousand and first.

in the normal course of things, he had no interest in women.

Except for all the times when he blatantly showed that he, you know, certainly did have an interest in women outside of Pon Farr... Leila Kalomi, Zarabeth, flirting with Droxine, engaging in Vulcan/Romulan version of kissy-face (i.e. finger-face) with the Romulan Commander (yep, the female one ), not to mention moments like grinning silly at Mudd's women, or checking out the women who pass by in "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky". Spock's lack of interest in women was about as real as his professed lack of emotion, or the abovementioned lack of reaction to Tribbles. The show certainly milked that contrast for its worth.

Ah, but there will obviously always be many fans who are eager to overlook all this, so they could insist that Spock has no emotions or that he is asexual outside Pon Farr. Even though poor D.C.Fontana has tried so many times, to no avail, to explain that Vulcan sexuality has been misinterpreted by the fans, that Vulcans do have sex any time they want, and that nobody who worked on "Amok Time" ever intended it to be understood otherwise...

And the only times he's ever done anything about it he had either his mind compromised naturally or unnaturally, or he was lying through his teeth just screwing with the woman's mind.

The fact that logical Spock who through his logic wouldn't pursue a woman unless in extreme circumstances is happily doing one of his students without explanation, is one of the many, many, many reasons why STXI is so horribly bad, cheap, and without merit.

The only problem being that 1) is not a fact - rather a matter of assumption and speculation - that he is doing her,

Nope, no assumption or speculation at all. She's his girlfriend, plain and simple. In fact, it's rather explicitly shown.

2) is not a fact that she is his student - actually, it is more likely that she hasn't been for quite a time,

No, she was a student, he was an instructor. In fact, he's even worried about the appearance.

3) it is certainly not a fact, but a matter of wild speculation, that he was doing her while she was his student,

No, it's a cold hard truth even now.

4) "happily"?! Have you seen the movie? Whatever relationship they had, he was certainly far from heing happy or relaxed about it... In fact, before his conversation with his father, he was as repressed and uncomfortable as they come!

You haven't actually been watching the same movie as everyone else, have you?

5) having your planet blown up and your mother die right in front of your eyes does not qualify as "extreme circumstances"?

Sweetheart, that happened LONG AFTER they got together. What happens after has nothing to with when he chose to start a relation with her.

... oh, and 6) explanation for what? For why people fall in love? Birds and bees. I don't need an explanation why Spock would fall in love with Uhura - I find that much easier to understand

Except that for Spock, mister logic, to do his student, that requires a little more than "it happened". That's one of those things that need exploration in a good move, which STXI couldn't even dream of being. Mister logic that can suppress his emotions can easily ignore any feelings he has for a student and remain professional. There must have been something extra-ordinary that his logic would say that starting a relationship with one of students is preferable to continue on as is.

than falling for pretty, but wimpy Leila,

He never fell for wimpy Leila. Once again, have you watched the same series as everyone else? He would only be with Leila after some spores screwed his brain over. Without the spores he refused to return any of the love she had for him.

and if I ever was in need of an explanation, it was what the heck he saw in Droxine...whom he did pursue, without any ulterior motive, naturally or unnaturally compromised mind, and not in any sort of extreme circumstances.

He never pursued Droxine, not even close. At best he came to say she was esthetically pleasing to the eye, and didn't do anything else. In fact he spent is time keeping her at a distance.

 

[DevilEyes]

Nope, no assumption or speculation at all. She's his girlfriend, plain and simple. In fact, it's rather explicitly shown.
...
No, she was a student, he was an instructor. In fact, he's even worried about the appearance.
...
No, it's a cold hard truth even now.
...
You haven't actually been watching the same movie as everyone else, have you?
...
Sweetheart, that happened LONG AFTER they got together. What happens after has nothing to with when he chose to start a relation with her.
...
blah blah blah

I wasn't aware I was your "sweetheart".

Oh my, you sure do have illusions of godhood, do you? Newsflash: you don't have the authority to proclaim the "ultimate truth". And arrogance does not make up for the lack of thought-out arguments. Who is "everyone else"? Do you also speak of yourself in plural, or do you just assume that everyone must agree with you?

Sorry to break it to you... but many people don't. There has been lots and lots of debate and disagreement over the issues above - on different forums, including Trek BBS. Go to Star Trek XI subforum and search "Uhura Spock" and you'll find a few threads with debates that have never been resolved. Obviously, none of this is "plain and simple" or "stone cold truth"... and it appears that "everyone else" did not watch the same movies as you, eh?

He never fell for wimpy Leila. Once again, have you watched the same series as everyone else? He would only be with Leila after some spores screwed his brain over. Without the spores he refused to return any of the love she had for him.

See, I know that this will seem completely outrageous to you - but some people actually have a different view than you. (shock! horror!) Someone might have noticed that spores were not a love potion nor an aphrodisiac and that nobody else on the planet, apart from Spock, fell in love as a result of the spores. They were happy, silly, content, laughing and singing, and they were physically healthy. But none of them fell in love. Someone might have noticed that the spores screwed with the mind in the very specific way - making people happy, content and in peace with themselves. Someone might have also noticed that Spock was, well, kind of a very emotionally repressed fella, you know? ... Or that in peace with himself was one thing he never was, constantly troubled by his human heritage and his desire to be a 'true Vulcan'. Someone might also realize that there might be a difference between not being able to acknowledge or reciprocate feelings, and actually not having feelings. And as a result, someone might think that the reason Spock so quickly proclaimed to Leila that he loved her as soon as the spores started working, was because he already had those feelings before - but he never was able to confront them or express them until the spores removed his inhibitions and his inner torment.

Yes, yes, I know - how can anyone challenge such incredibly deep and thoughtful insights as "some spores screwed his brain over" (even more deep and insightful than the profound statement "he was happily doing his student")? But yes, shockingly, there are some outrageous people who saw things diffrently, instead of bowing down to your superior wisdom!

He never pursued Droxine, not even close. At best he came to say she was esthetically pleasing to the eye, and didn't do anything else. In fact he spent is time keeping her at a distance.

Right, he was keeping her a distance by calling her a work of art the moment they met, and he was keeping her at a distance by answering her questions about Vulcan sexuality, and telling her - in answer to her question if "Vulcan cycle" that she had heard of can be "disturbed": "Extreme female beauty is always disturbing".

 

[3D Master]

Nope, no assumption or speculation at all. She's his girlfriend, plain and simple. In fact, it's rather explicitly shown.
...
No, she was a student, he was an instructor. In fact, he's even worried about the appearance.
...
No, it's a cold hard truth even now.
...
You haven't actually been watching the same movie as everyone else, have you?
...
Sweetheart, that happened LONG AFTER they got together. What happens after has nothing to with when he chose to start a relation with her.
...
blah blah blah

I wasn't aware I was your "sweetheart".

Oh my, you sure do have illusions of godhood, do you? Newsflash: you don't have the authority to proclaim the "ultimate truth". And arrogance does not make up for the lack of thought-out arguments. Who is "everyone else"? Do you also speak of yourself in plural, or do you just assume that everyone must agree with you?

Sorry to break it to you... but many people don't. There has been lots and lots of debate and disagreement over the issues above - on different forums, including Trek BBS. Go to Star Trek XI subforum and search "Uhura Spock" and you'll find a few threads with debates that have never been resolved. Obviously, none of this is "plain and simple" or "stone cold truth"... and it appears that "everyone else" did not watch the same movies as you, eh?

She goes to him, and questions why her boyfriend didn't put her on the Enterprise. He says he's worried about how it would look. She orders him to put her on the Enterprise and he obeys. Then she spends the rest of the movie around his neck comforting him. How much more proof that they're in a relationships do you want? Lying in the same bed together naked? Oh, wait, you probably don't consider that conclusive proof either right? They probably have to turn together to the camera, and say, "Yes, we are in a relationship, get it yet!?"

He never fell for wimpy Leila. Once again, have you watched the same series as everyone else? He would only be with Leila after some spores screwed his brain over. Without the spores he refused to return any of the love she had for him.

See, I know that this will seem completely outrageous to you - but some people actually have a different view than you. (shock! horror!) Someone might have noticed that spores were not a love potion nor an aphrodisiac and that nobody else on the planet, apart from Spock, fell in love as a result of the spores. They were happy, silly, content, laughing and singing, and they were physically healthy. But none of them fell in love. Someone might have noticed that the spores screwed with the mind in the very specific way - making people happy, content and in peace with themselves. Someone might have also noticed that Spock was, well, kind of a very emotionally repressed fella, you know? ... Or that in peace with himself was one thing he never was, constantly troubled by his human heritage and his desire to be a 'true Vulcan'. Someone might also realize that there might be a difference between not being able to acknowledge or reciprocate feelings, and actually not having feelings. And as a result, someone might think that the reason Spock so quickly proclaimed to Leila that he loved her as soon as the spores started working, was because he already had those feelings before - but he never was able to confront them or express them until the spores removed his inhibitions and his inner torment.

Yes, yes, I know - how can anyone challenge such incredibly deep and thoughtful insights as "some spores screwed his brain over" (even more deep and insightful than the profound statement "he was happily doing his student")? But yes, shockingly, there are some outrageous people who saw things diffrently, instead of bowing down to your superior wisdom!

Yeah, and anyone with a brain knows, whether or not he had feelings for her DOES NOT MATTER! What MATTERS is that he ignored, and controlled the feelings, and his logic said: don't do it, and he didn't. Only once the spores take away his emotional control does he act on them. THAT is what matters.

And just like with Leila, with Uhura there would be even MORE logical reasons to ignore the feelings, as Uhura is a student, while he's an instructor. For him to ignore his logic is MASSIVE! Or for him to logically decide that going against his feelings in this case would be illogical, is also MASSIVE. This is a character development the size of Mount Everest, on this alone you can spend an entire season of a television show. But they were simply together by writer's fiat, making it bad.

He never pursued Droxine, not even close. At best he came to say she was esthetically pleasing to the eye, and didn't do anything else. In fact he spent is time keeping her at a distance.

Right, he was keeping her a distance by calling her a work of art the moment they met, and he was keeping her at a distance by answering her questions about Vulcan sexuality, and telling her - in answer to her question if "Vulcan cycle" that she had heard of can be "disturbed": "Extreme female beauty is always disturbing".

Yeah, that would be keeping her at bay. By simply answering the question and not bothering with anything else, he kept his cool throughout the episode. If he hadn't wanted to keep her at distance, they would have made out at the very least, he didn't. Result being he kept her at a distance. He didn't allow himself to do anything with her.

 

[neozeks]

Um, yeah, people? Stargate Atlantis? Battlestar Galactica? Anyone?

 

[DevilEyes]

She goes to him, and questions why her boyfriend didn't put her on the Enterprise. He says he's worried about how it would look. She orders him to put her on the Enterprise and he obeys. Then she spends the rest of the movie around his neck comforting him. How much more proof that they're in a relationships do you want? Lying in the same bed together naked? Oh, wait, you probably don't consider that conclusive proof either right? They probably have to turn together to the camera, and say, "Yes, we are in a relationship, get it yet!?"

It's 100% they are in a relationship, but lots of other things are not, such as whether he was doing her prior to the Enterprise mission, and especially not if he was doing her when she was his student.

Take this to the STXI subforum, where it has been discussed to death. Here's the newest thread I could find.

Yeah, that would be keeping her at bay. By simply answering the question and not bothering with anything else, he kept his cool throughout the episode. If he hadn't wanted to keep her at distance, they would have made out at the very least, he didn't. Result being he kept her at a distance. He didn't allow himself to do anything with her.

Did he need to turn to the audience and say "Yes, I want to do her"? Would you consider that a conclusive proof?

 

[RJDiogenes]

What, and have the masses of non-fans the film needs to be financially viable make squicky faces and run away? After all there's nothing the average person likes more than having a character they can't identify with as a protagonist!

I see no way that would have worked. Star Trek is too mainstream to be weird that way now.

Well, that's exactly my point. Or are you mocking me?

You sure like to make a lot of assumptions about large numbers of people you don't know and haven't met, don't you? Considering the film has been a great success amongst a large and diverse number of demographics, claiming that the people who like it are the equivalent of immature 12-year-olds is pretty damn condescending.

I said the 'target audience' is twelve, which is obvious. If anybody above that age chooses to like it, that's up to them.

Most people like romance, so they like seeing romance in movies. That's so dark, gritty and homophobic of them.

You do realize that we're talking about a certain specific character here, right?

Now to make it fair, we should be seeing homosexual characters and romances as well to avoid heteronomativity, but making Spock some weird asexual alien thing would level the playing field only by leaving everyone out in the cold equally. Sue me, but I'm not a fan of that approach.

And I am completely unable to parse this part at all.

I am not sure which suggestion is weirder - that a character having a girlfriend is homophobic, or that a character having a girlfriend proves that the work of fiction is aimed at 12-year olds.

You do realize that we're talking about a certain specific character here, right?

Except for all the times when he blatantly showed that he, you know, certainly did have an interest in women outside of Pon Farr... Leila Kalomi, Zarabeth, flirting with Droxine, engaging in Vulcan/Romulan version of kissy-face (i.e. finger-face) with the Romulan Commander (yep, the female one ), not to mention moments like grinning silly at Mudd's women, or checking out the women who pass by in "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky". Spock's lack of interest in women was about as real as his professed lack of emotion, or the abovementioned lack of reaction to Tribbles. The show certainly milked that contrast for its worth.

It's certainly possible to interpret his interactions with Droxine as flirting, but other than that he never showed any interest in a woman unless-- as has been pointed out-- he was compromised or dissembling.

Ah, but there will obviously always be many fans who are eager to overlook all this, so they could insist that Spock has no emotions or that he is asexual outside Pon Farr. Even though poor D.C.Fontana has tried so many times, to no avail, to explain that Vulcan sexuality has been misinterpreted by the fans, that Vulcans do have sex any time they want, and that nobody who worked on "Amok Time" ever intended it to be understood otherwise...

Vulcans mate normally any time they want to. However, every seven years you do the ritual, the ceremony, the whole thing. The biological urge. You must, but any other time is any other emotion - humanoid emotion - when you're in love. When you want to, you know, when the urge is there, you do it. This every seven years business was taken too literally by too many people who don't stop and understand. We didn't mean it only every seven years. I mean, every seven years would be a little bad, and it would not explain the Vulcans of many different ages which are not seven years apart.

And that's without even taking into account the fact that Spock is - as hopefully every Trek fan is aware of - half-human, due to the fact that his father Sarek, a 100% Vulcan, had a "bizarre and forced relationship" with a human woman and even married her (which must be really mystifying to you, since he is not supposed to have any interest in women outside of Pon Farr?).

None of which relates to anything I said.

If Spock had said "I am not a man", I think you'd see some faces, not giggles, because it simply makes no sense. Is is a FACT that Spock is human as much as he is Vulcan, even though he spent all of TOS trying to deny that fact, thus statements such as the one above. Even TOS writers seemed to forget the fact occasionally. But since Spock's entire story in STXI was based on his dual background... well, it would've been pretty weird if he insisted he was not (hu)man, without anyone telling him he's talking BS.

He considered himself a Vulcan, and he obviously physically favored his Vulcan heritage, even if he did make peace with his dual nature later in life. This is the character as he was established in TOS. nu Trek abandons that characterization. That's all there is to it.

However, if you were actually right about any of this, is still would not explain what the heck any of this is supposed to have with homophobia? I hate to be the one to break it to you, but even when he was in Pon Farr, Spock only showed interest in having sex with females, and never expressed any wish to have sex with a male - except in fanfiction. So... even with all the concessions I could make, you're still not making any sense.

I'm making perfect sense, you're just choosing to misunderstand. It has nothing to do with Spock's orientation. It has to do with the audience reaction.

 

[Gepard]

Or are you mocking me?

Yes. No. Probably.

And I am completely unable to parse this part at all.

Then my work here is done.

 

[3D Master]

Yeah, that would be keeping her at bay. By simply answering the question and not bothering with anything else, he kept his cool throughout the episode. If he hadn't wanted to keep her at distance, they would have made out at the very least, he didn't. Result being he kept her at a distance. He didn't allow himself to do anything with her.

Did he need to turn to the audience and say "Yes, I want to do her"?

Nope, not at all. But a single action toward getting himself there would be an absolute minimum. Apart from saying he considered her esthetically pleasing he makes not one single iota of a move on her.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Sigh, and here I though we were talking about Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Atlantis instead of Spock's sex drive.

 

[Yoda]

Sigh, and here I though we were talking about Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Atlantis instead of Spock's sex drive.

Oh God. Don't try to get 3D Master talking about how much BSG sucks again. The board might collapse under the weight of such fail!

 

[RJDiogenes]

Or are you mocking me?

Yes. No. Probably.

Now you're being Dark & Gritty.

 

[Gepard]

Now you're being Dark & Gritty.

No, I'm being Dashing & Enigmatic. There's a difference.

 

[Neroon]

Um, yeah, people? Stargate Atlantis? Battlestar Galactica? Anyone?

Sigh, and here I though we were talking about Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Atlantis instead of Spock's sex drive.

Exactly. Back on topic, if you please, everyone.


As for 3D Master and Devil Eyes, you two go to your separate corners unless you can post on topic and with something resembling civility towards each other.

 

[DevilEyes]

Um, yeah, people? Stargate Atlantis? Battlestar Galactica? Anyone?

Sigh, and here I though we were talking about Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Atlantis instead of Spock's sex drive.

Exactly. Back on topic, if you please, everyone.


As for 3D Master and Devil Eyes, you two go to your separate corners unless you can post on topic and with something resembling civility towards each other.

Mr/Ms. Teacher, shouldn't you be sending someone else in the corner... say, the person who started the talk about Spock's sex life in the first place, out of the blue, and with no discernible reason?

 

[3D Master]

Um, yeah, people? Stargate Atlantis? Battlestar Galactica? Anyone?

Sigh, and here I though we were talking about Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Atlantis instead of Spock's sex drive.

Exactly. Back on topic, if you please, everyone.


As for 3D Master and Devil Eyes, you two go to your separate corners unless you can post on topic and with something resembling civility towards each other.

Mr/Ms. Teacher, shouldn't you be sending someone else in the corner... say, the person who started the talk about Spock's sex life in the first place, out of the blue, and with no discernible reason?

Whoever that was, wasn't me.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I just mentioned the character changes for nu Spock in passing and somebody picked up on it; but I shall digress no more.

 

[kipron]

Sigh, and here I though we were talking about Battlestar Galactica and Stargate Atlantis instead of Spock's sex drive.

Oh God. Don't try to get 3D Master talking about how much BSG sucks again. The board might collapse under the weight of such fail!

I think this is a good time to reiterate that Spike will be a recurring character on Caprica.

 

[Agent Richard07]

There was a recent episode of CSI that poked fun at BSG. The episode is called "A Space Oddity" and it's about the team investigating the murder of the star and showrunner of a new scifi TV series called Astro Quest Redux. Some of the action took place at a convention where fans of Astro Quest (a show very much like the original Star Trek) got to see the star and showrunner introduce the first clip of the remake, Astro Quest Redux (which is dark and gritty, much like the new Battlestar Galactica). Anyway, after we saw the fans get a look at Redux, a man jumped up and shouted... "YOU SUCK!" to the showrunner for debasing the classic. That man was played by Ron Moore. The rest of the attending fans joined in, some of whom were played by the cast members of BSG. Kate Vernon from BSG and Jaime Ray Newman from Stargate Atlantis also guest stared. I thought it was a funny episode. If you haven't seen it, find it and check it out if you can.

CSI 9x20: "A Space Oddity"

Looks like the rerun aired last Thursday. If I had known, I would have said something beforehand. It would have been a good complement to this discussion. Oh well.