I liked 'Stargate:Atlantis" better than "Battlestar Galatica"!

[label]

Watch DS9.

DS9 only pretends to dark and gritty. nuBSG is the real deal.

While DS9 didn't wasn't allowed to quite go to the "dark and gritty" places that nuBSG went at times, it certainly got pretty close at times. Especially when the dominion war was going on......there were definitely some pretty dark places I enjoyed alot. The whole retaking of Cardasia....Kira calling Dukat out on how Cardasians treated Bajoran's when they occupied Bajor.......Sisko working with Garak to convince the Romulans to join the war to the point of lying and eventually assassinating the Romulan.........basically, in the last 3-4 season it definitely had it's gritty moments and had the show continued, I have no doubt it would have continued along those lines.

 

[RJDiogenes]

The original series had planetary-scale deaths (Operation: Annihilate, The Doomsday Machine) and mass murders (The Conscience of the King, The Immunity Syndrome), so unless your Regan-Era D&G traveled backwards in time, there's more to dark and gritty than just subject matter. Darker and Edgier may be a trope, but my understanding of it--both from example and your arguments against it--is that it's more of a mindset, and as such requires a particular approach to a story, aside from just what that story contains. I don't agree that "story is more important" in this case.

While I agree that the Original Series was several times too cavalier about large-scale deaths, this was done in the context of standalone stories that nobody then thought would be watched more than once or twice and that was used to create an atmosphere of peril in the context of an adult story. In nu Trek, the deaths of parents and near-genocide of the Vulcans was used strictly for shock value and to show the kids that "anything can happen and it usually does," just like Surprise Day on Mickey Mouse Club. Note that the creators, despite their posturing about maintaining the optimism of TOS, did not choose to demonstrate the unpredictability of their nu Universe by, say, bringing an unexpected peace between the Federation and the Romulans and ushering in an even goldener Golden Age. No, I think their choice was calculated against current audience tastes to provoke a response along the lines of, "Kewl! They blew up teh Vulcans! Awesome!" TOS was about a time of peaceful exploration. Nu Trek is about a timeline where one-third of the founding members of the Federation is immolated when the Federation is a hundred years old. Sounds D&G to me. And the crew of the Enterprise watched it happen and failed to save them. These people should be on suicide watch, not going off on a happy mission.

I love that link, by the way. "Wouldn't impress anyone but Beavis and Butthead." I'm glad somebody on the Internet agrees with me.

I agree. I can see RJ's point that trek was trying to get edgier stylistically over time, but it was pure amateur hour about it. Darker and edgier with training wheels, maybe, and no real conviction about it.

I agree. It felt awkward, like they were being pressured from above to get with the program while they were still trying to be a show for adults.

"Real" Trek? Dude, it's all equally fake.

No, it's all equally fiction. There's a difference between a real work of art and a counterfeit.

 

[DevilEyes]

Yeah, the look had me optimistic for a while, but the content is definitely in the D&G category. The "shocking" and pointless deaths of important characters and the pyrotechnic immolation of two entire planets (or was it three?) as a throwaway plot device is very D&G. And juvenile-delinquent Kirk and homophobe-friendly Spock definitely emphasize that it was aimed at twelve-year-olds.

You should provide a Glossary of Weird Terms I Have Just Invented with each of your posts, so we could understand what the heck you are trying to say.

 

[David cgc]

Yeah, that threw me, too. The only thing I could think of to explain that was that giving Spock a girlfriend removed the "slash" potential of the Kirk/Spock friendship from the original series. Except that doesn't work, because T'Pring, Zarabeth and... the woman from the Spore-Planet (and a couple others I'm forgetting altogether) more than prove that Spock Prime loved the ladies, and the ladies loved him right back. So I have no idea what it could be referring to.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Yeah, that threw me, too. The only thing I could think of to explain that was that giving Spock a girlfriend removed the "slash" potential of the Kirk/Spock friendship from the original series. Except that doesn't work, because T'Pring, Zarabeth and... the woman from the Spore-Planet (and a couple others I'm forgetting altogether) more than prove that Spock Prime loved the ladies, and the ladies loved him right back. So I have no idea what it could be referring to.

The Vulcan kids who teased him were clearly gay and fancied them a bit of Spock, but him beating them up showed his true homophobic colours?

 

[David cgc]

Creepily enough, I almost made the exact same joke at the end of my post, but decided it was gilding the lily.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Creepily enough, I almost made the exact same joke at the end of my post, but decided it was gilding the lily.

Well I could think of nothing else that would remotely fit homophobia.

 

[Gepard]

I love that link, by the way. "Wouldn't impress anyone but Beavis and Butthead." I'm glad somebody on the Internet agrees with me.

You'll also note that that link defends BSG as one of the few justifiable uses of the trope. So there.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Yeah, the look had me optimistic for a while, but the content is definitely in the D&G category. The "shocking" and pointless deaths of important characters and the pyrotechnic immolation of two entire planets (or was it three?) as a throwaway plot device is very D&G. And juvenile-delinquent Kirk and homophobe-friendly Spock definitely emphasize that it was aimed at twelve-year-olds.

You should provide a Glossary of Weird Terms I Have Just Invented with each of your posts, so we could understand what the heck you are trying to say.

Sorry, I thought this was more of a Painfully Obvious Term. This has never come up in the combat zone of the nu Trek Forum? In the original Star Trek, Spock was an alien with a non-Human sexuality; in the normal course of things, he had no interest in women. This was emphasized by adding a character named Nurse Chapel who was there to have unrequited love for him. In the reboot, however, he has a bizarre, forced and unprofessional sexual relationship with Uhura to emphasize that in this universe he has Human Sexuality. In the original series episode "Amok Time," when Kirk talked about the birds and the bees, Spock replied, "I am not a bird or a bee... nor am I a man." Can you imagine the reaction if nu Spock said "Nor am I a man?" The giggles would have drowned out the kewl splosions.

I love that link, by the way. "Wouldn't impress anyone but Beavis and Butthead." I'm glad somebody on the Internet agrees with me.

You'll also note that that link defends BSG as one of the few justifiable uses of the trope. So there.

It said "successful" and "logical," both of which are true. Earlier on the page though, they use nuBSG to illustrate how bad Marvel's Ultimate line is.

 

[David cgc]

In the original series episode "Amok Time," when Kirk talked about the birds and the bees, Spock replied, "I am not a bird or a bee... nor am I a man." Can you imagine the reaction if nu Spock said "Nor am I a man?" The giggles would have drowned out the kewl splosions.

It would've been totally out of context. Can you imagine if he'd said, "Nor am I a man," in the original series when he was macking on Droxine, Zarabeth, or Leila Kalomi? Hell, that exact sentiment was played for laughs when Spock was commenting on how immune his vulcan psychology was to the effects of tribbles... while cuddling one.

Now, if Spock were pursing Uhura while in the throes of pon farr, it might've made sense to include that line. It would also be a retread of Voyager's "Blood Fever," and would make Sarek look like a total bastard who'd just come down with Terran Fever while on assignment by implying Vulcans were totally incapable of forming attachments without the incentive of the seven-year itch, an impression which no one on the show ever intended to give.

 

[Gepard]

^And I don't see how "giving Spock a heterosexual relationship" = "homophobe-friendly." So heterosexual now implies anti-gay?

 

[neozeks]

Watch DS9.

DS9 only pretends to dark and gritty. nuBSG is the real deal.

Define pretends...
Actually, someone, somewhere, argued that in the greater scheme of things, not in the individual behaviour of characters, DS9 is in a way a darker show. Murder of a diplomate (as opposed to Adama backing down from killing Kain) Inflicting genocidal disease on the Founders (as opposed to Colonials being prevented from doing so). Bajoran guerillas killing Cardassian civilians - Kira:'You were all guilty and you were all legitimate targets!' (as opposed to killing downloadable robots; Ok, collaborators too).

I think DS9 has the best balance of all the shows in this regard.

 

[RJDiogenes]

It would've been totally out of context. Can you imagine if he'd said, "Nor am I a man," in the original series when he was macking on Droxine, Zarabeth, or Leila Kalomi? Hell, that exact sentiment was played for laughs when Spock was commenting on how immune his vulcan psychology was to the effects of tribbles... while cuddling one.

Not really out of context since this is the first episode of a new franchise. You'd think if they were serious about the concept, they would have done a scene to establish the alien nature of his sexuality, rather than avoid it.

^And I don't see how "giving Spock a heterosexual relationship" = "homophobe-friendly." So heterosexual now implies anti-gay?

As I said, because it was to avoid the giggling of the twelve-year-old target audience.

 

[Gepard]

Not really out of context since this is the first episode of a new franchise. You'd think if they were serious about the concept, they would have done a scene to establish the alien nature of his sexuality, rather than avoid it.

What, and have the masses of non-fans the film needs to be financially viable make squicky faces and run away? After all there's nothing the average person likes more than having a character they can't identify with as a protagonist!

I see no way that would have worked. Star Trek is too mainstream to be weird that way now.

As I said, because it was to avoid the giggling of the twelve-year-old target audience.

You sure like to make a lot of assumptions about large numbers of people you don't know and haven't met, don't you? Considering the film has been a great success amongst a large and diverse number of demographics, claiming that the people who like it are the equivalent of immature 12-year-olds is pretty damn condescending. Most people like romance, so they like seeing romance in movies. That's so dark, gritty and homophobic of them.

Now to make it fair, we should be seeing homosexual characters and romances as well to avoid heteronomativity, but making Spock some weird asexual alien thing would level the playing field only by leaving everyone out in the cold equally. Sue me, but I'm not a fan of that approach.

 

[3D Master]

Not really out of context since this is the first episode of a new franchise. You'd think if they were serious about the concept, they would have done a scene to establish the alien nature of his sexuality, rather than avoid it.

What, and have the masses of non-fans the film needs to be financially viable make squicky faces and run away? After all there's nothing the average person likes more than having a character they can't identify with as a protagonist!

I see no way that would have worked. Star Trek is too mainstream to be weird that way now.

That rather proves his point, doesn't it?

 

[DevilEyes]

Yeah, the look had me optimistic for a while, but the content is definitely in the D&G category. The "shocking" and pointless deaths of important characters and the pyrotechnic immolation of two entire planets (or was it three?) as a throwaway plot device is very D&G. And juvenile-delinquent Kirk and homophobe-friendly Spock definitely emphasize that it was aimed at twelve-year-olds.

You should provide a Glossary of Weird Terms I Have Just Invented with each of your posts, so we could understand what the heck you are trying to say.

Sorry, I thought this was more of a Painfully Obvious Term.

You got the Painful part right. But for something to be Obvious, it has to make sense first, which that did not, not in the slightest.

I am not sure which suggestion is weirder - that a character having a girlfriend is homophobic, or that a character having a girlfriend proves that the work of fiction is aimed at 12-year olds.

This has never come up in the combat zone of the nu Trek Forum? In the original Star Trek, Spock was an alien with a non-Human sexuality; in the normal course of things, he had no interest in women. This was emphasized by adding a character named Nurse Chapel who was there to have unrequited love for him. In the reboot, however, he has a bizarre, forced and unprofessional sexual relationship with Uhura to emphasize that in this universe he has Human Sexuality. In the original series episode "Amok Time," when Kirk talked about the birds and the bees, Spock replied, "I am not a bird or a bee... nor am I a man." Can you imagine the reaction if nu Spock said "Nor am I a man?" The giggles would have drowned out the kewl splosions.

Yep, right, you're the first person to discuss Vulcan sexuality in this forum...did I say first? I meant, one thousand and first.

in the normal course of things, he had no interest in women.

Except for all the times when he blatantly showed that he, you know, certainly did have an interest in women outside of Pon Farr... Leila Kalomi, Zarabeth, flirting with Droxine, engaging in Vulcan/Romulan version of kissy-face (i.e. finger-face) with the Romulan Commander (yep, the female one ), not to mention moments like grinning silly at Mudd's women, or checking out the women who pass by in "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky". Spock's lack of interest in women was about as real as his professed lack of emotion, or the abovementioned lack of reaction to Tribbles. The show certainly milked that contrast for its worth.

Ah, but there will obviously always be many fans who are eager to overlook all this, so they could insist that Spock has no emotions or that he is asexual outside Pon Farr. Even though poor D.C.Fontana has tried so many times, to no avail, to explain that Vulcan sexuality has been misinterpreted by the fans, that Vulcans do have sex any time they want, and that nobody who worked on "Amok Time" ever intended it to be understood otherwise...

Vulcans mate normally any time they want to. However, every seven years you do the ritual, the ceremony, the whole thing. The biological urge. You must, but any other time is any other emotion - humanoid emotion - when you're in love. When you want to, you know, when the urge is there, you do it. This every seven years business was taken too literally by too many people who don't stop and understand. We didn't mean it only every seven years. I mean, every seven years would be a little bad, and it would not explain the Vulcans of many different ages which are not seven years apart.

And that's without even taking into account the fact that Spock is - as hopefully every Trek fan is aware of - half-human, due to the fact that his father Sarek, a 100% Vulcan, had a "bizarre and forced relationship" with a human woman and even married her (which must be really mystifying to you, since he is not supposed to have any interest in women outside of Pon Farr?).

If Spock had said "I am not a man", I think you'd see some faces, not giggles, because it simply makes no sense. Is is a FACT that Spock is human as much as he is Vulcan, even though he spent all of TOS trying to deny that fact, thus statements such as the one above. Even TOS writers seemed to forget the fact occasionally. But since Spock's entire story in STXI was based on his dual background... well, it would've been pretty weird if he insisted he was not (hu)man, without anyone telling him he's talking BS.

However, if you were actually right about any of this, is still would not explain what the heck any of this is supposed to have with homophobia? I hate to be the one to break it to you, but even when he was in Pon Farr, Spock only showed interest in having sex with females, and never expressed any wish to have sex with a male - except in fanfiction. So... even with all the concessions I could make, you're still not making any sense.

^And I don't see how "giving Spock a heterosexual relationship" = "homophobe-friendly." So heterosexual now implies anti-gay?

Apparently. Hey, those of you here who are in heterosexual relationships! Are you aware that, when you kiss your opposite-sex partner, you are oppressing gay people? You should feel ashamed! Homophobes! Although you can be excused if you are 12 years old.

 

[Gepard]

That rather proves his point, doesn't it?

Only if one has an incredibly low opinion of pretty much everyone outside a very small circle of nerds.

 

[3D Master]

Yep, right, you're the first person to discuss Vulcan sexuality in this forum...did I say first? I meant, one thousand and first.

in the normal course of things, he had no interest in women.

Except for all the times when he blatantly showed that he, you know, certainly did have an interest in women outside of Pon Farr... Leila Kalomi, Zarabeth, flirting with Droxine, engaging in Vulcan/Romulan version of kissy-face (i.e. finger-face) with the Romulan Commander (yep, the female one ), not to mention moments like grinning silly at Mudd's women, or checking out the women who pass by in "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky". Spock's lack of interest in women was about as real as his professed lack of emotion, or the abovementioned lack of reaction to Tribbles. The show certainly milked that contrast for its worth.

Ah, but there will obviously always be many fans who are eager to overlook all this, so they could insist that Spock has no emotions or that he is asexual outside Pon Farr. Even though poor D.C.Fontana has tried so many times, to no avail, to explain that Vulcan sexuality has been misinterpreted by the fans, that Vulcans do have sex any time they want, and that nobody who worked on "Amok Time" ever intended it to be understood otherwise...

And the only times he's ever done anything about it he had either his mind compromised naturally or unnaturally, or he was lying through his teeth just screwing with the woman's mind.

The fact that logical Spock who through his logic wouldn't pursue a woman unless in extreme circumstances is happily doing one of his students without explanation, is one of the many, many, many reasons why STXI is so horribly bad, cheap, and without merit.

 

[David cgc]

There was no evidence that Spock wa sin any way compromised when he pursued his original relationship with Leila Kalomi.

 

[DevilEyes]

Yep, right, you're the first person to discuss Vulcan sexuality in this forum...did I say first? I meant, one thousand and first.

in the normal course of things, he had no interest in women.

Except for all the times when he blatantly showed that he, you know, certainly did have an interest in women outside of Pon Farr... Leila Kalomi, Zarabeth, flirting with Droxine, engaging in Vulcan/Romulan version of kissy-face (i.e. finger-face) with the Romulan Commander (yep, the female one ), not to mention moments like grinning silly at Mudd's women, or checking out the women who pass by in "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky". Spock's lack of interest in women was about as real as his professed lack of emotion, or the abovementioned lack of reaction to Tribbles. The show certainly milked that contrast for its worth.

Ah, but there will obviously always be many fans who are eager to overlook all this, so they could insist that Spock has no emotions or that he is asexual outside Pon Farr. Even though poor D.C.Fontana has tried so many times, to no avail, to explain that Vulcan sexuality has been misinterpreted by the fans, that Vulcans do have sex any time they want, and that nobody who worked on "Amok Time" ever intended it to be understood otherwise...

And the only times he's ever done anything about it he had either his mind compromised naturally or unnaturally, or he was lying through his teeth just screwing with the woman's mind.

The fact that logical Spock who through his logic wouldn't pursue a woman unless in extreme circumstances is happily doing one of his students without explanation, is one of the many, many, many reasons why STXI is so horribly bad, cheap, and without merit.

The only problem being that 1) is not a fact - rather a matter of assumption and speculation - that he is doing her, 2) is not a fact that she is his student - actually, it is more likely that she hasn't been for quite a time, 3) it is certainly not a fact, but a matter of wild speculation, that he was doing her while she was his student, 4) "happily"?! Have you seen the movie? Whatever relationship they had, he was certainly far from heing happy or relaxed about it... In fact, before his conversation with his father, he was as repressed and uncomfortable as they come!
5) having your planet blown up and your mother die right in front of your eyes does not qualify as "extreme circumstances"?
... oh, and 6) explanation for what? For why people fall in love? Birds and bees. I don't need an explanation why Spock would fall in love with Uhura - I find that much easier to understand than falling for pretty, but wimpy Leila, and if I ever was in need of an explanation, it was what the heck he saw in Droxine...whom he did pursue, without any ulterior motive, naturally or unnaturally compromised mind, and not in any sort of extreme circumstances.