I'm loving ds9
- Thread starter Nerdius Maximus
- Start date
I spoke too soon when I said DS9 made TNG look bland in comparison. I love TNG, I was just getting really excited about DS9, having never given it much of a chance past the first few seasons of its original run. So basically this is like a "new" Trek show for me, so I'm all amped up about it at the moment.
The way I see it, Odo is emotionally like a teenager, almost a child, due to his lack of experience in relationships - both human(oid) and Changeling relationships. I've already explained why I don't think it's fair to say that he collaborated "for sex". And I would completely agree that Kira would never have forgiven him if he really had not lifted a finger to help his friends... but that is not true. He eventually did help them.
Personally, I think that shows like DS9 have received a sort of renaissance due to the trend in scifi storytelling over the past 10 -12 years toward arc-based, complex storylines. And modern audiences look at earlier efforts as bland and vanilla by comparison. TOS has survived much better because, although it is not arc-based, it IS the original, and people love the nostalgic, kitchy feel of the show. And seriously - how could you NOT love Shatner?But TNG? Episodic storytellling, combined with that ghastly 1980's PC preachiness? It has NOT aged well, my friend.
And you cannot blame us original hard-core Niners for that.
And it REALLY irks me when people imply that there is some sort of membership requirment in the imaginary "Niners Club" which insists upon disavowing any allegiance to TNG.
TNG stands or falls on it's own merits. Not on anything DS9 fans have done to it, or to it's former avid fans.
Yes, I completely understand the argument for DS9 being superior to TNG in large part because of the serialization, but my defense of TNG in that matter is how about when the arcs were bad? Just because something is continuous doesn't mean it's good. One of the things that bugs me the most about DS9 is when they keep going back to arcs that I hate, which would either create entire episodes that annoyed me, or disrupt the flow of episodes that would be good without them.
This just dragged down the show for me. Particularly Dukat's character and experiences after his daughter dies, and all the stuff with Sisko and the Prophets, which to me was an albatross for the series from the very first episode. At least with TNG, when they had a bad idea for a plot you could almost always be sure they'd be done with it after one episode, so you wouldn't have to be subjected to it for multiple episodes and even seasons.
And I thought most of the few recurring things they did were pulled off nicely. For example, Q remained fresh from start to finish, and Moriarty's first and second appearances were both excellent, with the second being an improvement from the first. They did run Lore and the Borg into the ground, though. Putting those two together didn't do favours for either.
Also, DS9 was also not without its share of irritating preachiness, particularly in the early seasons when Kira would drone on and on about the plight of the Bajorans. Until she started to lighten up around the third/fourth season, I desperately wanted the writers to kill her off because I was so sick of her whining.
I think this happens also. But I don't think it accounts for ALL of the move away from TNG.
Anyone who has been on this board for more than a TV season or two know that fads happen in fandom. When Firefly came on, for about a year, the bandwagon that insisted that Firefly was the BEST SHOW EVER was enormous. Alot of the Browncoats became downright annoying, in fact, despite the fact that the show only had like 13 episodes or something.
Me? I liked the show, but I'm pretty rational about this sort of thing, and despite the fact that I really liked the show, didn't feel like ANY show deserved the title of BEST SHOW EVER after only a handful of episodes. I believe that a truly great shows holds up well as it ages. And even now, I don't think we are far enough away from Firefly to judge how well it has held up. We are getting there....to the place where the fad has died down and it can take its REAL place in galaxy of scifi shows...but while a show is first on and brand new is not the time to make that judgement.
The same thing happened on this board with Heroes. At the time, folks like me were scoffed at, because we said that season 1 of Heroes was great and all that...but that it would be a very difficult series to maintain at that level. Especially since they gave Peter Petrelli the power to assimilate the powers of all the other heroes. I mean, where do you go from there? But the gushers would hear nothing about that...once again, we were into this "Heroes is the BEST SHOW EVER" thing. Well, sure enough, seasons 2 and 3 have been disappointments and the huge crowds of BEST SHOW EVER gushers have disappated....but they were there for a while, that's for sure.
But DS9, Babylon 5, and shows like that are in a bit different category. I mean, we are 10 years out from the last episode of DS9. The fads have died down, and most of us are more rational about our feelings for these shows.
The newbies to the series still need some time to assimilate it's true place in their own thoughts...but those of us who have been around DS9 for years are pretty 'settled' in our opinions and those opinions have had a chance to stand the test of time. Or not.
I my case, I watched DS9 from the night the very first episode aired, and still love it. Only one show has rivaled it so far, and that has been Babylon 5. The X-Files and Farscape are up there too in terms of long-term staying power...as is maybe Buffy the Vampirre Slayer. But DS9 and B5 are, at this point, my 'elite 2', and have been for some years.
LOST is up there and has a chance to take it's place among a possible 'elite 3'...but that will depend upon how they end LOST - what kinds of payoffs we will get when it ends next year....AND how well LOST stands up 5 or 10 years from now.
Get back to me at the end of next season of LOST...and then again in 5 years, and I'll tell you if LOST has unseated DS9 or B5 in my book...or if it even made the 'elite 3'.
I am very patient when it comes to making these decisions. I HATE bandwagons. But show me a really GREAT show, and it will eventually get the credit it deserves, in my book.
However, all of the above said, I do think that DS9 has aged much better than any of the other modern Trek shows...and the reasons for that are enumerated in my previous post.
I think that newbies to DS9 might at first be a little more excited about the show than they will eventually be, because anything new and good is a novelty. But for alot of us, that opinion turned out to not be so much a novelty. And I, for one, attribute that to the quality of the show.
Well DS9 is actually still pretty new to me since I only finished watching it for the first time about a month ago. At the moment, I still think TNG is more consistent, but I may change my mind as DS9 'ages' to me.
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Personally, I think that shows like DS9 have received a sort of renaissance due to the trend in scifi storytelling over the past 10 -12 years toward arc-based, complex storylines. And modern audiences look at earlier efforts as bland and vanilla by comparison. TOS has survived much better because, although it is not arc-based, it IS the original, and people love the nostalgic, kitchy feel of the show. And seriously - how could you NOT love Shatner?
And you cannot blame us original hard-core Niners for that.
And it REALLY irks me when people imply that there is some sort of membership requirment in the imaginary "Niners Club" which insists upon disavowing any allegiance to TNG.
TNG stands or falls on it's own merits. Not on anything DS9 fans have done to it, or to it's former avid fans.
Yes, I completely understand the argument for DS9 being superior to TNG in large part because of the serialization, but my defense of TNG in that matter is how about when the arcs were bad? Just because something is continuous doesn't mean it's good. One of the things that bugs me the most about DS9 is when they keep going back to arcs that I hate, which would either create entire episodes that annoyed me, or disrupt the flow of episodes that would be good without them.
This just dragged down the show for me. Particularly Dukat's character and experiences after his daughter dies, and all the stuff with Sisko and the Prophets, which to me was an albatross for the series from the very first episode. At least with TNG, when they had a bad idea for a plot you could almost always be sure they'd be done with it after one episode, so you wouldn't have to be subjected to it for multiple episodes and even seasons.
And I thought most of the few recurring things they did were pulled off nicely. For example, Q remained fresh from start to finish, and Moriarty's first and second appearances were both excellent, with the second being an improvement from the first. They did run Lore and the Borg into the ground, though. Putting those two together didn't do favours for either.
Also, DS9 was also not without its share of irritating preachiness, particularly in the early seasons when Kira would drone on and on about the plight of the Bajorans. Until she started to lighten up around the third/fourth season, I desperately wanted the writers to kill her off because I was so sick of her whining.
First, sorry I didn't see this last night. From the time stamps, it appears we were typing at the same time, and I missed this post.
However....
1. I never said, nor do I necessarily believe that DS9 is 'superior' to TNG. I PREFER it to TNG, but that is a matter of PERSONAL TASTE - not objective evidence.
The fact is that there is no objective evidence which indicates that ANY given TV show is 'superior' to another. You can't even look to ratings for that. Unless, of course, you are one of those who believe that American Idol is the best show ever in the history of TV.
2. It is interesting that you categorically decided that certain arcs of DS9 are 'bad'...as if EVERYONE naturally feels the same way that you do and that some body out there determined that there is objective evidence to indicate that they are 'bad'.
Because, in fact, everyone does NOT feel the way you do, nor is there objective evidence to indicate that certain arcs you don't happen to like are 'bad'.
For example, I NEVER had a problem with Dukat's character after his daughter was killed. The guy was already on the path to madness before that even happened, IMO - and having your child killed can (and has) certainly pushed more than one parent completely over the edge. So for me, I saw what happened to him as a reasonable progression, given the circumstances.
And as for Sisko and the Prophets...well, not only do I not agree with your assessment of that arc as 'bad'....I thought that was one of the most important themes of the entire SHOW. I mean, we are talking mission critical here.
One of the things that I have noticed after years of modding this forum is that alot of posters who have issues with religion in real life also have issues with Sisko/the Prophets and Bajoran religion in general. They hate religion themselves, and so transfer that dislike to the issues addressed on DS9 - some of them flat out resenting any mention of any sort of religion in Star Trek at all, as if it were an established fact that NO one in the 24th century will believe in anything.
Meanwhile, many people who do not have issues with a God/religion IRL actually appreciate the fact that DS9 addressed it - really for the first time in a positive way in Star Trek.
The thing is, just because Gene Roddenberry likely did not believe in God doesn't make it so. Gene Roddenberry was NOT all knowing. Nor was he any sort of prophet-without-a-god himself. He was a MAN. Nothing more. And he was a man who happened to get lucky. He was not, and is not, the mecca of all understanding in the universe. Nor should he be considered so, for even the imaginary TREK universe. And the thing is that for alot of people in the real world, religion is an integral part of their lives. Why not have ONE race in all of Star Trek who is religious and who are not portrayed as primitive fools in need of 'enlightenment'?
Or don't you believe it tolerance for all manner of beliefs, customs, and lifestyles?
Me? I don't have an issue with the existence of a God or with organized religion IRL...and so I don't mind this theme being addressed in DS9. In fact, I thought it was a good thing to show a race of fairly religious people who were not backward-ass morons.
But that's just me.
Your mileage may vary.
And as for Kira 'whining'...well, if your country were occupied for a few decades by a brutal force which forced you into slavery, raped your women, killed your people for sport, starved you to death, terrorized your population, and pillaged your land, you'd 'whine' just a bit too, I recon.
What did you expect her to do? Have no issues at all? Forget it ever happened?
I mean, good grief - they had JUST come out from under occupation, 'fer cryin' out loud!!!
I think I'm getting a bit misunderstood here. I didn't mean to assert those things I said as objective opinions. I always try to make it clear that what I'm saying is my personal reaction and I don't assume it to be universal. So to rephrase, in my opinion those arcs were bad (Kira's occupation issues, Sisko's being meddled with by the Prophets, Dukat's going whacko) and in my viewing experience they hurt the seasons seasons they were in and gave the show baggage TNG didn't have.
And I believe in God and have no problems with religion in Star Trek, even if it contradicts Rodenberry's original vision. I'm not really sure it does, though. While there was that rather unfortunate 'religion is ignorant' nonsense speech that Picard makes in "Who Watches the Watchers?", there is also a really nice moment in "Balance of Terror" where the widowed crew woman mourns for her deceased partner in the ship's chapel (which apparently never appeared again or prior to that episode, for some odd reason).
What bothered me about the Prophets had little to do with religion. I just found them to be a lame plot contrivance. I hated the way they spoke and were presented. I found a lot of that unforgivably cheesy. Every time they pulled him out of what he was doing to have another corny conversation with him, I got impatient and frustrated.
I also found it morally repugnant and just plain irritating the way they interfered with Sisko's life. When I found out that their meddling with him went even further back than his adulthood, to the point where they had tricked his father into meeting, falling in love with, and marrying a woman just so they could have him, I hated them even more.
They send his father a woman who he loves, then have her leave him after they have the child that they wanted the two to have? How is that not one of the most cruel and morally reprehensible acts in all of Star Trek?
I don't like this idea of 'gods' who can meddle with peoples' lives so directly, pulling their strings, and manipulating them blatantly. I prefer the idea of religion and faith as something more subjective and personal, with each individual's interpretation of what 'God' is and how it may reveal itself into one's life varying. By making these god-like Prophet characters so literal, I think DS9 took a pretty shallow and boring approach to depicting religious figures.
But that's not really the issue. My main beef is that they were just so hokey. They were so ignorant that Sisko had to be constantly explaining things about human nature to them from the first episode, and yet they saw fit to decide for him what he can and can't do in his life. They appoint themselves his surrogate parents and ultimate authorities on his destiny even though they're fools.
And yes, Kira's bitterness about the occupation was justified, but we didn't have to be subjected to as much complaining about it as we were. They could have been more subtle about it, especially in the early seasons. It was toned down later on, but her constant screeching about it in the first two seasons is the main reason I hated her so much for a long time. It's also the reason I have a hard time enjoying "Duet" as much as most people because despite the awesome performance by the guest star, the episode is tainted by most of it being a Kira bitchfest.
And I believe in God and have no problems with religion in Star Trek, even if it contradicts Rodenberry's original vision. I'm not really sure it does, though. While there was that rather unfortunate 'religion is ignorant' nonsense speech that Picard makes in "Who Watches the Watchers?", there is also a really nice moment in "Balance of Terror" where the widowed crew woman mourns for her deceased partner in the ship's chapel (which apparently never appeared again or prior to that episode, for some odd reason).
What bothered me about the Prophets had little to do with religion. I just found them to be a lame plot contrivance. I hated the way they spoke and were presented. I found a lot of that unforgivably cheesy. Every time they pulled him out of what he was doing to have another corny conversation with him, I got impatient and frustrated.
I also found it morally repugnant and just plain irritating the way they interfered with Sisko's life. When I found out that their meddling with him went even further back than his adulthood, to the point where they had tricked his father into meeting, falling in love with, and marrying a woman just so they could have him, I hated them even more.
They send his father a woman who he loves, then have her leave him after they have the child that they wanted the two to have? How is that not one of the most cruel and morally reprehensible acts in all of Star Trek?
I don't like this idea of 'gods' who can meddle with peoples' lives so directly, pulling their strings, and manipulating them blatantly. I prefer the idea of religion and faith as something more subjective and personal, with each individual's interpretation of what 'God' is and how it may reveal itself into one's life varying. By making these god-like Prophet characters so literal, I think DS9 took a pretty shallow and boring approach to depicting religious figures.
But that's not really the issue. My main beef is that they were just so hokey. They were so ignorant that Sisko had to be constantly explaining things about human nature to them from the first episode, and yet they saw fit to decide for him what he can and can't do in his life. They appoint themselves his surrogate parents and ultimate authorities on his destiny even though they're fools.
And yes, Kira's bitterness about the occupation was justified, but we didn't have to be subjected to as much complaining about it as we were. They could have been more subtle about it, especially in the early seasons. It was toned down later on, but her constant screeching about it in the first two seasons is the main reason I hated her so much for a long time. It's also the reason I have a hard time enjoying "Duet" as much as most people because despite the awesome performance by the guest star, the episode is tainted by most of it being a Kira bitchfest.
And as for Kira 'whining'...well, if your country were occupied for a few decades by a brutal force which forced you into slavery, raped your women, killed your people for sport, starved you to death, terrorized your population, and pillaged your land, you'd 'whine' just a bit too, I recon.
What did you expect her to do? Have no issues at all? Forget it ever happened?
I mean, good grief - they had JUST come out from under occupation, 'fer cryin' out loud!!!
Exactly!!!! I really, really don't get people who say that Kira "whined" about the Occupation?! Whined?! Whining is complaining childishly over a trivial matter. Whining is when you keep complaining and complaining because you hurt your toe, or because someone looked at you the wrong way, or because you don't think you're appreciated enough at work, or because a storyline on a show did not go your way, or because a movie is being made that you don't want to be made because you're sure it will suck. But being angry because your country was occupied, because millions of people died, and all sorts of atrocities were commited, for 60 years - how is that "whining"?!
Really, what the hell did you expect?!?! You expect Bajorans to be forget all about it and shiny happy people right after the occupation ended, with their country still ravaged and in chaos? Do you expect that someone who's lived all her life in those circumstances, living through hardships and witnessing atrocities, and then fighting and becoming a killer and terrorist because that was the only way to fight against the people who've ruined her planet - you'd expect her to be happy and relaxed, not angry and traumatized and damaged? As for "preaching", there is a world of difference between such an (justifiably) angry, traumatized person reminding people of the horrible things that happened to her people, and a bunch of lucky people living in a peaceful, technologically advanced, socially well-adjusted society with no poverty or war, going about the galaxy and giving aliens lessons, because "we were like that once, but we have evolved" etc. I guess both are equally understandable and both are equally a product of their enviroment, unbringing and experiences, but I tend to sympathize with the former, while the latter tend to piss me off.
Maybe it's just me, and I realize that someone else might feel completely different about it. But there's no denying that those two cases are completely differenCan you avoid generalizations, please? There is a number of people who don't have a problem with religion and who enjoyed it being portrayed intelligently and with respect in an SF show but who had a problem with the way DS9 resolved the religious issues with the Sisko/Prophets/Pah-wraiths/Dukat storyline. I enjoyed the way DS9 dealt with religion, I found the stories about Bajoran religion interesting, I loved the Sisko/Prophets scenes in "Emissary" and the entire storyline for the first 5 and a half seasons, I thought "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" dealt with the issue of religion brilliantly....and I used to praise DS9 for the way it dealt with religion, in an intelligent, complex, non-preachy way.
Until they threw it all away and decided to make it into just another simple, black-and-white, Good vs Evil battle, complete with demonic possessions, magical births, and red-eyed maniacally laughing villains. As if they decided that they did not respect the audience's intelligence after all, and decided to literaly preach and hit us over the head with their 'message'.
And I have no problem with Dukat going insane. What I do have a problem with, is the fact that this storyline was not character-driven or even plot-driven, it was driven by Ira Steven Behr's obsessive idea that people liked Dukat too much and that he needed to hammer it home that this character was eeeeevil.
But I've already said all I have to say about this here.
I liked them as a part of the show early on, when they were just the wormhole aliens that the Bajorans worshipped as Prophets, which was justified in a way as they actually had knowledge of the future. I liked it when the show did not take a stance either way. We weren't beaten over the heads with the idea of them actually being gods, it wasn't implied that they were the force of goodness or that we're supposed to be on their side, and they were not shown meddling in the lives of other species.
But I disliked what they were made into in season 6 and especially 7, and I really hated the story about Sisko's conception and birth. What the Prophets did to Sisko's mother and father is just disgusting, treating humans as things, with no respect whatsoever for their feelings. I wonder if TPTB ever realized just how repellent that made the Prophets seem, while they were simultaneously trying to establish them as the force of Good, as opposed to be Eeeevil Pah-wraiths?
You rightly point out that what they did to Joseph Sisko was horrible, but let's not forget what they did to Sarah. A Prophet possessed a human woman and made her have sex, pretend to love a man, conceive a child and give birth, all completely regardless of her own will and feelings on the matter. That is the single most disgusting use of a female body I can think of. Even comfort women had more free will than that. Only the Borg have ever used human bodies in a similarly ruthless way.
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Agreed. However, I actually like the conceit that truly powerful beings won't see things the way we see them, and that to them, less powerful beings are either things to be ignored, manipulated, or outright used. It's realistic, no matter how repugnant it is from our POV. Look at how humans use animals. To something as powerful and different as a Prophet, humans and other time-bound sentient races have less in common with them than we have with animals, so why would they show us more regard?
What isn't realistic is that we're meant to see them as forces of good. I never saw then that way, no matter how much the writers tried to ram it down my throat.
First, interesting debate here! Been a while since I got into one of these, and I'm enjoying the discussion!
Second....I get what you are saying about the Prophets. And would I like a god who manipulated my life like they manipulated Sisko's? Probably not.
However, they ARE gods. And the thing about being a god is that you get to do whatever you like.
And no one has to 'like it'. They just have to live with it.I mean, I believe in god. But frankly, I don't think 'our' god interferes ENOUGH, when it comes to good 'ole planet earth. I mean, if there were ever a time to interfere, it would have been 1939...or better yet, the second Hitler was conceived. Hundreds of millions of people lost their lives because of ONE man. And 'our god' did NOTHING to prevent it.
What's up with that?
And on a smaller, but perhaps more personal scale, the same holds true for 911. Why would god allow something like that to happen? Something that horrific...that senseless on such a massive and utterly ghastly scale?
I guess what I'm saying is that we don't get to pick our gods and make them in our own image, or to our liking in real life. Why do they have to be to our liking on a TV show?
Did the prophets make me mad on occasion? Yes...of course they did! They screwed around with Sisko's very BIRTH...and yet had to be convinced to not let the entire AQ, which was under Sisko's direct protection, fall to the Dominion. It doesn't make sense. And if you notice, it didn't make sense to Sisko either! Which I think is kinda part of the point.
Because I am not at all certain gods are supposed to 'make sense'. And certainly, they are under no obligation to make sense! They are GODS. They don't have to justify themselves to us in the slightest! That's the great thing about being a god!
I mean, when you think about it, why does a god even necessarily have to be good? We assume that our god is, because it's what we have been taught from the beginning of belief. But who says you have to be good to be a god? And what if the prophets were not, in fact, all that 'good'? Does that make them any less gods?
Just throwing out some ideas here.....but it all goes back to the idea that the writers were under no obligation to make the prophets 'good', or 'smart' or whatever....because if they actually existed, they could just as easily be 'bad' or 'stupid'.
You know what I mean?
As for Kira...well, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that issue. I didn't see what she was doing as whining. One of the other posters explained it better than I...but I know this, if I had had to live through something like that, it would be a miracle if I were able to function AT ALL after it was over. The Cardassians were horiffic, and treated the Bajoran people as less than animals. And if that happend to me...I can tell you, I would be REALLY angry for a VERY long time. Much longer than Kira was, to be honest.
Sounds like you're describing Vorlons here.
Excellent point!
Sykonee makes a great point here, Too Much Fun. I don't know if you've ever seen B5...but if you think the Prophets are arbitrary and manipulative....wait till you meet the Vorlons!
Now, those are some hard-core bad-ass gods, right there!
