Starship Troopers

[ST-One]

I'd have no problem living in that society - as matter of fact, I'd prefer it to the one we have now.

And of course it didn't make fun of that society - it made fun of the society Verhoeven had extrapolated in his own head. Why? Because he never read the book. He could hardly have much insight into it then, could he?

It's a significant work in military science fiction - maybe THE significant work. It also has quite a bit to say about society and our expectations. Moral philosophy is a very interesting POV, and has some interesting ramifications. What you saw in the movie was 3rd Reich Fascism across the board. It was unrecognizable from the society painted in the book.

Oh, and of course it wasn't the sum total of Heinlein's philosophy - Glory Road was a very strident anti-war peace, and Stranger in a Strange Land was one of the seminal counterculture works done in scifi.

But then I'll take a wild guess and say you didn't read Starship Troopers either - you just know you don't like what it says.

So yes, I find ignorance offensive. Verhoeven mocked a work he admitted to having complete ignorance over. In his interviews he said explicitly that he modeled it after what he remembered of Nazi occupation in the Netherlands during his youth.

Needless to say, considering that the book was picked up as a principle by science fiction fans that fought in that war, and that it's lessons as to what the responsibility of soldiers are in war were emulated by the service academies, Voerhoven was talking out his ass.

Not three posts ago, I said that I read that book and that I found it awful, by its premiss (your voice is only worth to be heard and recognized when you earned that worth through means which we seem appropriate) and its writing style (boring).

Maybe you can point out the differences between the film's and the book's societies, because I can't see them.

The gender separation (female flight crew, male cannon fodder) in the book, for once?

Maybe I should read it again. I can't remember that detail.

But this is just more oil for my fire... the women are kept safe, so that they can later produce children for this great society and it's never-ending wars.

 

[lennier1]

Not three posts ago, I said that I read that book and that I found it awful, by its premiss (your voice is only worth to be heard and recognized when you earned that worth through means which we seem appropriate) and its writing style (boring).

Maybe you can point out the differences between the film's and the book's societies, because I can't see them.

The gender separation (female flight crew, male cannon fodder) in the book, for once?

Maybe I should read it again. I can't remember that detail.

But this is just more oil for my fire... the women are kept safe, so that they can later produce children for this great society and it's never-ending wars.

Still gotta love the part of the book when Rico´s dad completely changes his mind and joins. Pure MST3K moment again.
You guys might convince me to be in favor of a movie true to the book after all, even if it´s only to watch the Rifftrax edition.

 

[Demiurge]

Not three posts ago, I said that I read that book and that I found it awful, by its premiss (your voice is only worth to be heard and recognized when you earned that worth through means which we seem appropriate)

You mean like an arbitrary age limit? Every single democracy has one of those, right? Is it really true that all 16 year olds have less political sophistication than every 19 year old?

You don't like the limitation of franchise in this particular case, but it's actually based on an idea that has merit - you need to value the concept of franchise for it to have merit, and for it to be exercised responsibly. What percentage of people voted in your last local election?

Oh, and the novel makes it clear that you can't vote or hold office while in the military and that career military therefor NEVER exercise power. It also states that everyone has freedom of expression and freedom of assembly.

and its writing style (boring).

Guess the Hugo award selection committee felt differently. LOL.

Maybe you can point out the differences between the film's and the book's societies, because I can't see them.

Let's see, just a general overview - fascism vs democracy, cruelty vs personal responsibility, warmongering vs protection, etc ad nauseum. The film doesn't even present the major philosophical points of the book, such as the concept of moral philosophy, the soliloquoy on the way we treat our children offenders, or how federal service is actually de-incentivized, not to limit people's opportunities but to make sure the people who join are the ones that understand what they are doing and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary.

Probably the most obvious example is the example of Ted Hendrick's in boot camp. It totally transforms the concept from the responsibilities and ethics of the officers in charge of training to a case of brutality and cruel indifference. Indeed the Sgt. Zim character exults in his opportunity to harm Hendricks by throwing a knife through his hand. In the novel it nearly breaks Zim, who doesn't use any more force than necessary and has to be talked out of resigning from service because it was his mistake, not Hendricks, that led to the court martial.

 

[ST-One]

Still gotta love the part of the book when Rico´s dad completely changes his mind and joins.

Yeah, I rolled my eyes so hard that it hurt.

 

[Demiurge]

Maybe I should read it again. I can't remember that detail.

But this is just more oil for my fire... the women are kept safe, so that they can later produce children for this great society and it's never-ending wars.

Oh dear lord - what never ending wars? Where is that stated in the book? This is absolute crap and not even inferred. It's coming from your own prejudices.

According to the book, women sign up for federal service just as much as men. The government HAS to accept anyone who volunteers, unless they can't understand the oath of service.

However, they attempt to place people where there talents lay, and the MI is primarily about physical strength and the ability to endure punishment. There IS a Major in the book in the MI that is female. However, it's explicitly stated that Johnny got his LAST choice in joining the MI - Carmen doesn't join the MI because her aptitude allows her to do something better. Carl makes fun of Rico because he can't do any better.

Still gotta love the part of the book when Rico´s dad completely changes his mind and joins. Pure MST3K moment again.

The guy lost his wife in a WMD like event - you think it's illogical that he might want to keep others from experiencing the same? What effect do you think it would have had if 9-11 wasn't just a localized attack but something that took out the whole city?

Thank goodness we haven't seen a war like WWII in 60 years. If we did, I think you'd understand that a bit better. Heinlein did, so he knew about it. Hell, there were many reported example of guys committing suicide because they were 4F and couldn't join the military.

 

[ST-One]

You don't like the limitation of franchise in this particular case, but it's actually based on an idea that has merit - you need to value the concept of franchise for it to have merit, and for it to be exercised responsibly. What percentage of people voted in your last local election?

So, you do favour a system take makes your earn the right to vote?

Oh, and the novel makes it clear that you can't vote or hold office while in the military and that career military therefor NEVER exercise power. It also states that everyone has freedom of expression and freedom of assembly.

Only, you don't have any real say unless you 'served'.

....or how federal service is actually de-incentivized, not to limit people's opportunities but to make sure the people who join are the ones that understand what they are doing and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary.

And so that only those with a certain 'attitude' will be granted the right so vote/wield political power after their military service.

Probably the most obvious example is the example of Ted Hendrick's in boot camp. It totally transforms the concept from the responsibilities and ethics of the officers in charge of training to a case of brutality and cruel indifference. Indeed the Sgt. Zim character exults in his opportunity to harm Hendricks by throwing a knife through his hand. In the novel it nearly breaks Zim, who doesn't use any more force than necessary and has to be talked out of resigning from service because it was his mistake, not Hendricks, that led to the court martial.

Yeah, that poor, compassionate man.

 

[Demiurge]

Yeah, I rolled my eyes so hard that it hurt.

Pretty much the description of the entire movie for me.

I mean, DAMN it's stupid. In the novel, the Bugs are a sophisticated alien race - they use spaceships, beam weapons and nuclear devices. The final mission into Klendathu is to capture a brain to understand why they fight us, because while intelligent they are alien and we can't communicate with them. It's as much about resolving the conflict as it is winning - it also clearly states that we don't have to do that, we can destroy planets and commit genocide against the entire race, but that would be acting immorally.

In the movie, people think the Bugs aren't intelligent even AFTER they send an asteroid to destroy Buenes Aries, and the chart shows we know it was sent from another star system - they have FTL.

The penultimate moment of the movie is capturing the bug brain but so the guy dressed up in the Nazi SS uniform can read its mind and shout out 'It knows FEAR!'

Stupid, stupid, stupid. But you guys sure eat it up.

 

[ST-One]

The guy lost his wife in a WMD like event - you think it's illogical that he might want to keep others from experiencing the same?

Oh, yes, and that little monologue about how he is now a man and not just some resources-consuming being.

Actually a very nice view into the what this book it trying to say.

 

[Demiurge]

So, you do favour a system take makes your earn the right to vote?

Honestly, it's a big thing to experiment with and I believe the social disruption making that kind of change would cause more damage than it was worth - you could only really do so in

However, if our system was based on that instead of everyone with a pulse gets the vote I think we might actually have better leadership. It also underscores personal responsibility, which is often lacking in our society.

Only, you don't have any real say unless you 'served'.

Yep. However, 'served' means spend time working for the Federal government, not serving explicitly in the military.

I understand the question of propaganda in that equation, but I also think that's a valid question at every level of society even now - we do got our political instruction as children from the government, flat out.

And so that only those with a certain 'attitude' will be granted the right so vote/wield political power after their military service.

Wrong.

Yeah, that poor, compassionate man.

In this case, we are explicitly talking about military service. And I'd like to see any service which just ignores it when one of their enlisted men strikes a senior officer. There isn't a service in existence that wouldn't court martial this individual. The mistake Sgt. Zim made wasn't that he gave the order for Hendricks to freeze, or that he hauled him up on charges. The mistake was for him to allow Hendricks the chance to get himself court martialed - someone with his experience and abilities has to make sure the blow never lands. Zim nearly resigned his service because he let a rookie hit him in the jaw - because the consequences to that rookie were severe.

You might want to read the book again - you clearly didn't understand it.

 

[xortex]

The only thing that I know is it's the only sci-fi movie that makes me cry every time while being fun while frustrating expectations. It starts with Radcheck teaching some morally debatable history. I loved it. "..But more than that, Diz was a citizen.." I'm crying already.

 

[ST-One]

Yeah, I rolled my eyes so hard that it hurt.

Pretty much the description of the entire movie for me.

I mean, DAMN it's stupid. In the novel, the Bugs are a sophisticated alien race - they use spaceships, beam weapons and nuclear devices. The final mission into Klendathu is to capture a brain to understand why they fight us, because while intelligent they are alien and we can't communicate with them. It's as much about resolving the conflict as it is winning - it also clearly states that we don't have to do that, we can destroy planets and commit genocide against the entire race, but that would be acting immorally.

In the movie, people think the Bugs aren't intelligent even AFTER they send an asteroid to destroy Buenes Aries, and the chart shows we know it was sent from another star system - they have FTL.

The penultimate moment of the movie is capturing the bug brain but so the guy dressed up in the Nazi SS uniform can read its mind and shout out 'It knows FEAR!'

Stupid, stupid, stupid. But you guys sure eat it up.

Of course the military is portrayed differently in the movie than in the book. But that's because the film doesn't try to paint this militaristic democracy in a positive light.

 

[ST-One]

And so that only those with a certain 'attitude' will be granted the right so vote/wield political power after their military service.

Wrong.

Oh? How am I wrong?

 

[Demiurge]

Oh, about the 'endless wars' comment - here's a quote from the book:

When Juan's father is trying to talk him out of enlisting:

Father stood up and put a hand on my shoulder. "Son, don't think I don't empathize with you, I do. But look at the real facts. If there were a war, I'll be the first to cheer you on - and to put the business on a war footing. But isn't, and praise God there never will be again. We've outgrown wars. This planet is now peaceful and happy and we enjoy good enough relationships with the other planets.

Yeah, another disconnect there for sure.

 

[Demiurge]

The guy lost his wife in a WMD like event - you think it's illogical that he might want to keep others from experiencing the same?

Oh, yes, and that little monologue about how he is now a man and not just some resources-consuming being.

Actually a very nice view into the what this book it trying to say.

Sure - it's counterpointed by the death of his wife and sister on a trip he himself was supposed to take, how one of his friends didn't understand that the Arachnids weren't just conquering worlds but eliminating the human populations, and that even prior to that he was fulling unfulfilled in his role as corporate executive.

There was certainly a time when it was understood that men should protect those physically weaker then themselves. The fact that there were other sentiments at the time that were clearly wrong in terms of sexism and racism doesn't change that fact that it's encoded in our very DNA.

Of course, our current society is trying very hard to get rid of that viewpoint. They want the concept of 'being a man' replaced with having a male sex organ.

But the military, police and fire departments are still dominated by men.

 

[Demiurge]

Of course the military is portrayed differently in the movie than in the book. But that's because the film doesn't try to paint this militaristic democracy in a positive light.

Not in a positive light? You mean like dressing them up as Nazis, introducing overt sadism and exultation in causing pain to others, and making them all white instead of racially diverse? Hell, Juan Rico is Fillipino!

But I guess overt propaganda is peachy when you yourself agree with it, eh?

Voerhoven conflated many, many things he didn't agree with and attributed them all to the novel - when it wasn't there in the first place.

 

[Demiurge]

And so that only those with a certain 'attitude' will be granted the right so vote/wield political power after their military service.

Wrong.

Oh? How am I wrong?

Attitude doesn't have anything to do with it. That is something you attributed to it in trying to find fault. Anyone who wants to can join - they just provide cautionary information when you sign up.

 

[ST-One]

Oh, about the 'endless wars' comment - here's a quote from the book:

When Juan's father is trying to talk him out of enlisting:

Father stood up and put a hand on my shoulder. "Son, don't think I don't empathize with you, I do. But look at the real facts. If there were a war, I'll be the first to cheer you on - and to put the business on a war footing. But isn't, and praise God there never will be again. We've outgrown wars. This planet is now peaceful and happy and we enjoy good enough relationships with the other planets.

Yeah, another disconnect there for sure.

Yeah, only to later say that he always wanted to join up himself to become a man but was held back by his wife.
But, once his wife was dead, you could outgrow his resources-consuming existence and finally be a real man.

 

[ST-One]

Not in a positive light? You mean like dressing them up as Nazis, introducing overt sadism and exultation in causing pain to others, and making them all white instead of racially diverse? Hell, Juan Rico is Fillipino!

Who says he isn't in the film also?

And, that movie is targeted to a specific audience, hence the casting choices.

Attitude doesn't have anything to do with it. That is something you attributed to it in trying to find fault. Anyone who wants to can join - they just provide cautionary information when you sign up.

Yeah, I'm sure attitude has nothing to do with it...

 

[Ryan]

First, the asteroid thing has always puzzled me, too. We saw orbital rings with large gun emplacements, so you'd think that Fleet could do something about an asteroid attack.

Those were part of a flash forward to after the Buenos Aires attack, I believe.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Not in a positive light? You mean like dressing them up as Nazis, introducing overt sadism and exultation in causing pain to others, and making them all white instead of racially diverse? Hell, Juan Rico is Fillipino!

Who says he isn't in the film also?

Watch the film. Does he, or his parents, LOOK Filipino to you? They're about as whitebread as you can get.