"What it requires of it's God, Doctor..."
- Thread starter Chrisisall
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Like terrorists?
^To respect one's enemy when respect is due, if only as a worthy opponent...that is the mark of a true warrior. 
Honestly? I don't have a clue....
Honestly? I don't have a clue....
Amen, Nerys--on all counts!
Everyone is entitled to post in this thread, please respect other posters' rights to post in this thread, even if you disagree with their opinion.
I guess it's easier for me to say what's not fun, and for me, what's not fun is people - and it happens with allllllllllll sides of this issue, trust me here - not only insulting the beliefs of others, but doing so with smug self-satisfaction and even enjoyment.
I try not to do that (though it's difficult to keep from returning the smugness if it's hurled first). I actually respect individuals who have a quiet personal religious faith, and don't wish to insult them, even if I don't believe what they believe. But those who scream their beliefs to crowds who don't want to hear it and try to convert them, IMHO, deserve my scorn. "Organized religion" - i.e. the buerocracy of the theocracy, to me, is the ultimate in hypocrisy. If there was a way to bring the organizations tumbling down and allow people to simply have their own faith quietly at home, I'd say, do it!
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I don't think there are too many terrorists (or other criminals) posting here.
Fascinating. You accuse others of making false arguments with poor logic (and, I happened to agree with you - Rush Limborg was hitting all the notes they taught us at Athiest school in Refuting Religion 101
), and yet, you want to say that because the set named "religious people" includes a relatively small number of people who are terrorists, that all "religious people" are terrorists? Bad show and bad math - and I think you know better.Yes - It is perfectly reasonable to respect people as people regardless of their faith or lack thereof. Personally, I assume that that is not all there is to a person, and I have known plenty of religious people who were good people because of or in spite of their religion.
It is also possible to respect them because they are on The Path, just as we are. I'll explain, using myself as a reference:
When I was little, I accepted Jesus without question, but, by the time I was about 9 years old, I came to the conclusion that either the gods did not exist, or they didn't really care much about us. I became what I refer to as an Apatheticist - I didn't really believe, and I didn't see any reason to care what the gods thought if they did exist, because the way I saw it, all that really matters is that you do your best to be a Good person, and the rest will sort itself out. If, when I die, I end up at some gate or whatever, and they tell me, hey, you did your best to be a Good person, but you didn't humiliate yourself before this god, or face Mecca enough, or whatever, so you can't get in to Heaven/Summerland/Sha-Ka-Ree, well, I'll go to Hell or whereever else, and gladly. If they want to act like that, they aren't what they sell themselves as, so screw 'em. And I'd think their adversaries probably aren't as bad as advertised, either.
Then, I made some discoveries about things I believe about how the world works, and ended up exploring Wicca for a few years. Which ironically, ultimately led me to a very unusual form of Christianity for a while... and then back to Apatheticism.
My point being that, the first time I was an Apatheticist, I believe I'd have sworn up and down that nothing would change my mind - but that's what we have to do. To believe, we have to, well, believe. Whatever it is that we believe or believe that we don't believe.
We all travel this path in some direction or another. Maybe a few pick a direction and deviate very little. Some of us, like me, weave all over the place. I'm here, you're there, some Christians are there, and so on - but that may not stay the same.
Some day you may find yourself in a seemingly hopeless predicament with no power to help yourself and think, what the hell - dear Jesus, please help. (My dad is a pretty dedicated Athiest - but when I was little and very sick, he prayed - said afterward that "it couldn't hurt".)And afterward you may feel foolish, or you may feel enlightened. Just moving around the path.
: |Fascinating. You accuse others of making false arguments with poor logic (and, I happened to agree with you - Rush Limborg was hitting all the notes they taught us at Athiest school in Refuting Religion 101
I was joking.
I don't equate religion with terrorism, nor do I believe that 'all religious people' are terrorists. Basically I was saying I cannot respect something that I fundamentally disagree with and disbelieve in.
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How do you define "fun"?
I guess it's easier for me to say what's not fun, and for me, what's not fun is people - and it happens with allllllllllll sides of this issue, trust me here - not only insulting the beliefs of others, but doing so with smug self-satisfaction and even enjoyment.
I try not to do that (though it's difficult to keep from returning the smugness if it's hearled first). I actually respect individuals who have a quiet personal religious faith, and don't wish to insult them, even if I don't believe what they believe. But those who scream their beliefs to crowds who don't want to hear it and try to convert them, IMHO, deserve my scorn. "Organized religion" - i.e. the buerocracy of the theocracy, to me, is the ultimate in hypocrisy. If there was a way to bring the organizations tumbling down and allow people to simply have their own faith quietly at home, I'd say, do it!
No kidding! Personally, I didn't say anything about how I really felt about religion for a long while because my old man still dragged me to church every Sunday. And EVERY SINGLE TIME anyone at church mentioned someone who had an even slightly different faith, they were so condescending, talking with this "oh, poor thing" mentality. To say nothing of that half the people I knew personally at church were complete assholes who would burn by the bible's rules but went every week to compare suits or whatever reason it is they went.
I like to separate God from religion, especially organised religion.
I accept that there may be (not that there has to be) some greater truth behind the universe and that this truth could be God, but I don't believe that we can comprehend or understand it.
So I do believe that the evolution of the universe and the evolution of life and the evolution of our morality and all of that could be a result of some greater plan or something like that. But I don't believe we can ever really know if this 'God' exists or what are his plans or what does he want. That's why i don't like institutionalised religion. It claims that it DOES know what God wants and that that's exactly what the said religion preaches and only that.
Therefore I don't believe in holy books or churches or priests or ceremonies and dogmas (i do respect the universal messages in the teachings). I don't believe anyone man or institution or book can claim to be closer to God or truer to him. I just have my own human morality and reason (which may be the result of the greater Plan but then, I couldn't know) and that's the only thing I can rely on.
Whew, that was heavy!
I accept that there may be (not that there has to be) some greater truth behind the universe and that this truth could be God, but I don't believe that we can comprehend or understand it.
So I do believe that the evolution of the universe and the evolution of life and the evolution of our morality and all of that could be a result of some greater plan or something like that. But I don't believe we can ever really know if this 'God' exists or what are his plans or what does he want. That's why i don't like institutionalised religion. It claims that it DOES know what God wants and that that's exactly what the said religion preaches and only that.
Therefore I don't believe in holy books or churches or priests or ceremonies and dogmas (i do respect the universal messages in the teachings). I don't believe anyone man or institution or book can claim to be closer to God or truer to him. I just have my own human morality and reason (which may be the result of the greater Plan but then, I couldn't know) and that's the only thing I can rely on.
Whew, that was heavy!
Everyone should keep in mind that the original question asked (here in General TREK Discussion) was:
"How does religion fit into Trek fandom?"
Please try to keep the commentary at least somewhat based in Trekdom.
"How does religion fit into Trek fandom?"
Please try to keep the commentary at least somewhat based in Trekdom.
And the designer is a complex being with incredible powers, it could not possibly have happened naturally and therefore it needs to have been designed by a super-designer. The super-designer has to have been even more complex than the designer, so it has to have been designed by a mega-designer. The mega-designer has to be more complex than the super-designer, so it has to have been designed by an epic designer. The epic-designer has to be more complex than the mega-designer, so it has to have been designed by a jumbo-designer. The jumbo-designer has to be more complex than the epic-designer, so it has to have been designed by a supersized-designer. The supersized-designer has to be more complex than the jumbo-designer, so it has to have been designed by a whopping-designer. The whopping-designer has to be more complex than the supersized-designer, so it has to have been designed by a colossal-designer. The colossal-designer has to be more complex than the whopping-designer, so it has to have been designed by a majestic-designer. The majestic-designer has to be more complex than the colossal-designer, so it has to have been designed by an exalted-designer...
And that's why I don't follow that sort of reasoning.
No it doesn't. The Big Bang theory describes how the universe came into its current form, the theory states that the universe existed before the "bang" but we cannot know for sure what form the universe was in. We don't know if the universe ever "began" or if such a concept can even be applied to a universe, we just have a model for the beginning of this stage of the universe.
As for the matter antimatter reaction, I honestly don't know where you're getting that idea from, my understanding is that both those things only came into existence after the initial "bang". They were an effect, not a cause.
Common sense says that things fall down because things fall down, in which case I can extrapolate that Australia is upsidedown and the people living there should fall into the sky. Common sense works in our daily lives but it does not work on a scientific level.
I don't know, and I'm not going to jump to conclusions because I don't have all the facts. Nobody has all the facts because there was no instruments around to measure what happened 13.7 billion years ago, we have to extrapolate from what we have now and that's not enough to give good answers to those questions. In a few thousand years we may have the technology and scientific understanding to give reasonably accurate answers to those questions but until then I'm going to stick with the truth; I don't know.
I'd say half the people you meet in almost ANY crowd are going to be flaming jerks. Sad to say, but once you've worked in retail, you really get to see the ups and downs of humanity on display, and trust me...jerkdom crosses ALL ethnic and religious lines.
That's part of why I concluded it wasn't fair to bash the concept of faith or even organized religion because of some people's poor execution of it. It's perfectly possible to have a good idea and do a very, very bad job of living it.
The beginning of wisdom, in my humble not-knowing opinion.
Actually I don't think you can. Respecting someone is holding them in high esteem or admiration. A person having irrational beliefs is a pretty good reason to not respect them. You can be civil to them, but that's different than respect.
I know it's become the "in thing" to say that religious belief is irrational, but it is not. There are rational arguments for religous belief. Just look them up. Rational arguments, in and of themselves, do not have to be true to be rational. That's why lawyers exist - they don't have to be right, just rational.
Claiming that religous belief is irrational, just because you don't share it, is irrational. Asserting that all religious belief is irrational is just that: an assertion. I have no desire to have an argument; just wanted to point this out. I once made the mistake of getting into a heated argument on another board. I will not repeat that mistake.
As for respect - can't you just ground your respect in the common humanity that we all share? Isn't THAT what Star Trek was trying to achieve (to try to respond to the OP's idea
)
I know it's become the "in thing" to say that religious belief is irrational, but it is not. There are rational arguments for religous belief. Just look them up. Rational arguments, in and of themselves, do not have to be true to be rational. That's why lawyers exist - they don't have to be right, just rational.
Claiming that religous belief is irrational, just because you don't share it, is irrational. Asserting that all religious belief is irrational is just that: an assertion. I have no desire to have an argument; just wanted to point this out. I once made the mistake of getting into a heated argument on another board. I will not repeat that mistake.
As for respect - can't you just ground your respect in the common humanity that we all share? Isn't THAT what Star Trek was trying to achieve (to try to respond to the OP's idea
I wasn't trying to make the comment that religious beliefs are irrational I was just spinning off from mb22's comment and speaking about irrational beliefs in general. I've never said I think all religious belief is irrational. An irrational belief doesn't have anything to do with the belief itself, but in how you hold the belief. I know there are perfectly rational arguments for God as a philosophy student I study them frequently. I believe they are wrong, but not irrational.
Ah, yes. This is an oft-repeated query: "If everything has a cause, then what caused God?"
That was not my major premise. I said everything that begins to exist has a cause. If God is omnipotent, and if he created space and time (which, it is asserted by us, he is, and did), then it stands to reason that he is not limited by those laws of space and time which he invented.
God, therefore, did not "begin" to exist--and therefore, he did not neccessarily have a cause.
Wait...how could you derive such an extrapolation without making assumptions that are illogical? After all, In Austrailia, you're upright.
Common sense, in the manner I meant, is simply logic that everyone should know. And nowadays, most of it is based on science.
The logical law of cause and effect works in science, too. Movement requires energy. An object at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force.
And consider a few other laws of science: Matter and energy are interchangeable. The total entropy in the universe can only increase or stay the same--it can never decrease.
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