I liked 'Stargate:Atlantis" better than "Battlestar Galatica"!
- Thread starter Jayson
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I'd rather watch Starship Exeter than yet another humdrum "sci fi" show where the spaceships look like factory basements and the characters all dress in bondage gear.
Factory basements? Bondage gear? Did you ever watch nuBSG?
Apparently just the three episodes where we saw the Cylon flight suits (which were, to be fair, kind of kinky).
"33"
Tigh: If the crew doesn't hate the XO, he's not doing his job. Besides, I gotta make the Old Man look good.
Adama: I always look good.
Tigh: Look in the mirror.
"The Passage"
Adama: I hear they're eating paper. That true?
Tigh: No. Paper shortage.
"Resurrection Ship, Part II" Final scene
"Miniseries"
Adama: It won't be an easy journey. It will be long and arduous. But I promise you one thing. On the memory of those lying here before you, we shall find it. And Earth will become our new home. So say we all!
"33"
Billy: Update on the head count.
Roslin: Subtract how many?
Billy: Actually, you can add one. A baby was born this morning on the Rising Star. A boy.
Roslin: A baby?
Billy: Yep.
Roslin: Thank you.
"Flight of the Phoenix"
Tyrol: It's just a ship, ma'am.
Roslin: Oh, you're much too modest. After what we've been through, it would be very easy to give up, to lose hope. But not here. Not today. This is more than a ship, Chief. This is an act of faith. It is proof that despite all we've lost, we keep trying. And we will get through this, all of us, together. I promise.
"Sometimes a Great Notion"
Adama: Men and women of the Fleet, this is the Admiral. The discoveries of the past few days have been painful for all of us. As you know, we cannot stay on Earth. But this is not a new challenge. The Thirteen Tribes of Kobol stood exactly on the same spot that we are right now. They experienced dreadful losses. Their planet was a graveyard. They needed a home. So they set out in the void of deep space with nothing but their ships and their guts. And the Thirteen succeeded. They were not super-men. They were ordinary people, like us. What they can accomplish, we can accomplish. We will find a new home. This is a promise I intend to keep.
I'm always amazed when people miss the fact that the entire premise of the show was the validity and power of hope through adversity. Not just people who dislike it, and claim that it was all doom and gloom, but fans, as well. I was surprised every time I saw someone say they were expecting a downer ending to the show, with everyone dying or something. It was inevitable that there'd be a light at the end of the tunnel, otherwise the series would've made no sense.
Still, posts like that make me consider taking notes the next time I watch BSG, and itemizing every single moment of levity, happiness, humor (among the characters, not situationally, which costs us a good amount of Baltar comedy, but situational humor doesn't reflect on the characters' personalities), and hope. Hope is, of course, the easiest one, as you may have noticed above.
I wouldn't bother. After all that work these people would still lack taste, and still hate the show. It's really not worth it!
Before I continue, let me qualify my statements by saying that I loved the nuBSG mini-series. It was phenomenal. Much of the first season was fantastic and most of season two was very, very good. It was only with the flash-forward on New Caprica, and the subsequent downward spiral of melodrama and extreme reactions out of just about everybody almost all of the time that BSG completely and utterly lost my respect. With that in mind:
The thing is, I happen to think "Sometimes A Great Notion" was the best episode of the entire series after "Resurrection Ship, Part II." It even includes *one* example of people trying to find joy in a terrible situation (Helo, Athena and Hera laughing). But it's just one example, nearly drowned in a sea of severe depression and letdown.
If you want to demonstrate hope in the face of adversity, you need *something* to counterbalance the doom and gloom. And there's precious little of it -- even compared to a "darker Trek" like DS9. I'd go so far to say that nuBSG is the mirror opposite of the original BSG -- instead of insufferable campiness and levity, we get insufferable melodrama and despair. As I said, it's a style. And a valid one, provided we accept that's what it truly is. But make no mistake, it's not representative of the human equation. While humanity certainly is capable of (and has demonstrated) all of the negativity shown in BSG, it also is capable of (and has demonstrated) far more good than BSG displayed.
More to the point, this demonstrates how nuBSG completely misses the goal stated by both Eick and Moore themselves. They said they weren't going to go for a "dramatic" or "TV" thing ... but that's precisely what ended up happening. nuBSG is melodrama -- a stylized, myopic representation of humanity. My personal tastes aside, there is some value to BSG, to exploring our darker natures, but it isn't an honest portrayal of humanity -- and it needs to be acknowledged as such.
If you do go back through BSG and record all the moments which are examples of the "best" of humanity, I'd encourage you to do the same for every example of the "worst" of humanity. I know without having to go through the exercise that the "worst" would far outweigh the "best."
"33" was the first episode of the series. And while there were some attempts at humor in the first season -- "Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down", parts of "Colonial Day" for example -- the amount of laughter across the rest of the series, particularly in seasons 3 & 4 cannot be denied. There's far more humor and happiness on even DS9 than there was on BSG. The point is the lack of a balanced approach to the human equation.
I'm not sure I'd categorize an episode which ends with the murder of Cain as an example of "happiness." Though, I will concede, that the episode, overall, has a positive message: Namely, how you treat people says something about who you are. Then again, this was one of the last truly exceptional installments of the series.
Again, I agree that there was at least some semblance of optimism in the early going of the series ... so I concede that the miniseries, "33", and "Flight of the Phoenix" had optimismistic messages. I know that the ending of "Notion" has a nice little speech from Adama, but did you really pick an episode in which a prominent character (Dee) commits suicide, in which the President goes into seclusion, in which Adama tries to provoke Tigh into shooting him because he's too weak to commit suicide himself, as an example of BSG's "optimism"?
The thing is, I happen to think "Sometimes A Great Notion" was the best episode of the entire series after "Resurrection Ship, Part II." It even includes *one* example of people trying to find joy in a terrible situation (Helo, Athena and Hera laughing). But it's just one example, nearly drowned in a sea of severe depression and letdown.
If the entire premise of the show was the "validity and power of hope" then why did episode after episode after episode insist on showing us almost entirely the most extreme reaction possible to adversity. The shouting, the shooting, the duplicity, the power-plays, the petty rage and jealousy, the insecurity, the hubris, the infidelity, melodrama, the death ... all of which was given much, much more prominence than hope, optimism, humor, joy.
If you want to demonstrate hope in the face of adversity, you need *something* to counterbalance the doom and gloom. And there's precious little of it -- even compared to a "darker Trek" like DS9. I'd go so far to say that nuBSG is the mirror opposite of the original BSG -- instead of insufferable campiness and levity, we get insufferable melodrama and despair. As I said, it's a style. And a valid one, provided we accept that's what it truly is. But make no mistake, it's not representative of the human equation. While humanity certainly is capable of (and has demonstrated) all of the negativity shown in BSG, it also is capable of (and has demonstrated) far more good than BSG displayed.
More to the point, this demonstrates how nuBSG completely misses the goal stated by both Eick and Moore themselves. They said they weren't going to go for a "dramatic" or "TV" thing ... but that's precisely what ended up happening. nuBSG is melodrama -- a stylized, myopic representation of humanity. My personal tastes aside, there is some value to BSG, to exploring our darker natures, but it isn't an honest portrayal of humanity -- and it needs to be acknowledged as such.
If you do go back through BSG and record all the moments which are examples of the "best" of humanity, I'd encourage you to do the same for every example of the "worst" of humanity. I know without having to go through the exercise that the "worst" would far outweigh the "best."
Comments like this one -- categorizing those who are critical of nuBSG as those who "lack taste" -- are a bit counterproductive, don't you think? I've no respect whatsoever for nuBSG, and I have plenty of objective criticisms of the show that I care to talk about on a message board, but I'm not going to impugn anyone for actually liking it.
Except that the camera man always seemed to be going through delirium tremors....
No doubt from all that booze and speed Moore and Eick passed around.
As opposed to 80s Gene Roddenberry's LSD laced coolaid.
.Probably.
When you consider that the show was all doom and gloom without a shred of hope, and focused on nothing but the characters' negative points, or melodrama as others have said, any ending except the death of everybody would render the whole point of the show (that there is no point to anything) moot.
As for the "humor" the show displayed, it was pathetic and dumb.
Adama wants to kill himself. His best friend has turned out to be a Cylon. His hollow quest that he slowly began to believe has turned out to be for naught. The woman he loves (and it's been a long time since he's loved a woman) has secluded herself from everyone, including him. Adama has reason to consider ending it all, but he doesn't, and he comes to terms with continuing to lead the fleet, and to terms with all his other relationships. Roslin deals with her pain, and in time emerges from seclusion to embrace every last day she has. He realizes that his friendship with Tigh is just as real whether he's 'human' or 'Cylon.' And in the end, they find a home, even if it isn't 'Earth' as they thought it would be.
If the series was all about doom and gloom, Tigh would have blown Adama's brains out and been done with the matter. If Sometimes a Great Notion were the end of the series, you might have a point. But it isn't. The series ends with Daybreak, not Nightfall, and in that sense it was an ending that had been building the entire time.
If you think BSG is too dark don't ever watch an HBO show.
That's so weird! I could've sworn I itemized several counterexamples! I suppose there must've been a glitch in the forum and the first 80% of my post didn't go through.
But wait! Someone else quoted my examples and actually went to the trouble of commenting on them, rather than pretending they didn't exist and refusing to support their point beyond vague generalities that had already been challenged. However, since you are a goodhearted and intelligent person, I can only assume there is some kind of gas leak in my home, and I indeed did not challenge the point that the series was nihilistic in this and other topics, and I have hallucinated the reply by Samuel Walters due to dropping oxygen levels.
Okay, so let's say we put this reading into practice, shall we? The next time I'm really in the dumps, feeling totally beaten, filled with rage and anger, I'll remember that these negative feelings and situations completely outweigh and invalidate any future joy I may ever experience, or the fact that I would endure through them in the hope of things getting better. Yes, any transitory suffering will completely destroy my life now and in the future. That sounds delightful. Apparently, the only way to counteract it is with bright set-lighting and a series of disconnected episodic adventures.
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. And if you have to go out and get a pitcher, ice, and sugar, then, dammit, you're just going to have to buck up and find some. What you seem to be saying is that, when life gives you lemons, it sucks. And if you go out to get the ice and the sugar, well, it still sucks that you have to do that. And the fact that you are in the process of reducing the suckiness of the situation has no bearing on its continuing suckitude, because you've still got lemons, and you can have no possible reaction that will reduce the level of suck around you. And if you end up with some delicious lemonade, than it still doesn't fix the fact that having lemons sucks.
Do you not see that by ignoring every positive aspect of the show to read it as nihilistic, you're espousing a philosophy that's more nihilistic than the show itself could ever be? By relentlessly ignoring the fact that everyone didn't tie up a noose and end it all on day one, you're saying that, if a situation is crappy enough, it doesn't matter how you respond to it, because it's still a fate worse than death. The fact that the characters continued to do their jobs, worked towards a constructive goal that would improve their situation, and even, God help us, had moments of shared levity and joy, doesn't matter because bad things had still happened to them.
The human equation? What the hell are you talking about? If there is one thing you can see from human history, it's that the shittier the situation a society is in, the more fucked up people are. The human condition is Somalia.
Well, there's always the Teletubbies.
I'm saying you're not going to like the show if he comes up with an itemized list of 'look they're happy'. You've made up your mind, so it's a waste.
Saying you lack taste might not be 'productive', but it's hardly 'counterproductive'. You're not going to turn around and start liking the show, so what's there to produce? Fanboys and bashers holding hands and signing Kumbaya?
So you've been to Somalia have you? You've seen that if the kids have food in their bellies they don't run around and play? That if the kids are running around and playing, even for one day, their parents won't smile? The 'human condition' changes every hour of every day.
Wow, I guess we really do have opposite tastes. First Contact, in addition to its logical flaws and adolescent dialogue, was the movie that introduced the ash-gray uniforms, dispensed with characterization for almost all of the characters and substituted mindless action for story (with the exception of the teeth-pullingly boring EVA sequence). It turned Star Trek from its original premise as an optimistic vision of the future into low-grade John Grisham rip off with zombies.
Not that it was all bad. Picard's transformation from trauma-induced macho doofus back into his original civilized persona was good; although few remember that part, focusing instead on his embarrassing Die Hard posturing. And Cochrane's transformation when he sees the stars was a nice moment. The ending was good, too (and a bit of a relief by then). Everything else in the movie is unmitigated garbage.
Surely not?
I don't/can't believe that.
John Grisham? And, wouldn't it be vampires instead of zombies? The Borg Queen as Countess Dracula, mistress of the undead? I would say First Contact is at least watchable, unlike Final Frontier, Generations, Insurrection and Nemesis. That's not much competition, which may concede your point.
Re BSG's realistic characterization: I could go on even longer but there's no point. The Look quelling everyone is mildly hyperbolic but there is ample reason for BSG fans to joke about The Look quelling everyone. If anyone wants to argue Adama is not meant to be written as incredibly dominant, argue with those people.
If "lovable curmudgeon" strike you as too sentimental, substitute "magnificent bastard." But there is still good reason for Tigh to be one of the best loved characters on the show, and Helo isn't. When Buffy and her friends get all the cool snark and their opponents don't, it's meant to make them lovable. The same thing applies on BSG.
The US has rarely been at peace since WWII. The tradition of combat flying has been polished and maintained by experienced trainers. Starbuck is treated as a combat veteran without having been in any combat mentioned. (Possible unmentioned combat is now the perfect example of reading too much into BSG!
)People do not act like they think Baltar is psychotic, hallucinating, insane. They let him keep an atomic bomb without even checking up on what he does with it! Baltar, a character descended from Dr. Zachary Smith, is realistic? Anyone who says that has completely lost all judgment.
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True, the series does not end with "Notion" and, true, there's the "happy ending" of (most) everyone arriving safely on Earth II. But consider how much negativity the series displayed between those two episodes. There was the whole mutiny arc, with Zarek committing mass murder against the Quorum, he and Gaeta becoming executed, the deaths of countless people during the mutiny and the restoration of order. And if we're talking about Adama's character, how many times after "Notion" did we see him brooding, drinking, popping pills, taking drugs, breaking down and crying (throwing paint on the walls), and so forth? The series does something very smart with Ellen's character in "No Exit" but in the very next episode, she's right back to being petty, spiteful and manipulative.
There's precious little to balance all that negativity out which is, essentially, my point. This is an overly negative show which, more often than not, puts the darkest elements of human nature on screen, at the cost of the better parts.
Like I've said before, it's a style -- a legitimate style -- but, personally, I don't respect Moore & co. for saying that they aren't trying to play things for drama's sake when, clearly, that's the style they are going for.
By "human equation" I am referring to human nature. I thoroughly and completely agree that humanity is capable of everything we see in nuBSG -- but we are also just as capable of much, much more. Much more often than not, nuBSG chose to show the darker side of human nature, and ignored the better parts of our nature. It'd be one thing if Moore & Eick came right out and said: BSG is an exploration of the dark side of human nature. But they didn't. In fact, they went out of their way to try and tell us that this was a show that didn't play up melodrama when, in fact, they did the exact opposite.
One could argue (and many have argued) that TNG didn't give an honest portrayal of human nature because its characters almost always took the "best" route possible. But TNG (like TOS), at least, advertised itself as an optimistic look at our future. Or, to put it another way, consider Firefly. It, too, had a much darker vision of human nature -- but with its emphasis on humor, camaraderie, and a code of honor (Mal has one, even it's a bit fuzzy at times) it's a much more balanced portrayal of human nature than nuBSG -- and Firefly gives you pretty much what it sets out to do. My criticism of nuBSG is, then, that not only doesn't it give us a true, honest representation of humanity -- one aspect of which is to find happiness and joy, even in the worst of circumstances -- it advertises itself as something as a "legitimate" drama that does.
nuBSG doesn't need to be any different than it is ... but let's at least acknowledge that its stories give only a limited view of human nature.
You're right, an itemized list is unlikely to change my mind, but saying I "lack taste" is an ad-hominem attack which is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Isn't there a better way of replying to my point of view (see: Harvey, David cgc) than simply dismissing my opinions as "lacking taste"? Besides, after watching every episode of nuBSG at least twice, I'm confident that a completely objective itemized list would reaffirm my point that the negativity and proclivity toward melodrama in nuBSG outweighs reasonable and rational behavior (and, yes, humanity isn't always rational, but it rational behavior is underrepresented in nuBSG).
The fleeting smiles will disappear when a war lord grabs the kid, gives him an AK47 and forces him to shoot at other kids.
I'm sure the Somali fishermen who turned into pirates because there aren't enough fish to feed their families are smiling all the time too.
For the situation the Galactica crew was in, they were appropriately gloomy. There were definitely some 'positive' human aspects in the show, but in a situation so desperate it would make absolutely no sense if the bad didn't outweigh the good.
I honestly don't remember Moore and Eick talking down the dramatic elements before the show aired, granted I didn't pay that much attention to anything but the final product, so i don't know what to tell you there. Sorry you feel ripped off.
TNG makes perfect sense. I think it gives an honest enough portrayal of humanity in that if we had the technology where everyone had a comfortable life, a home, food, and the ability to pursue whatever interests made them happy, then by and large you will have people who are nice to each other. On the other hand the people in the Galactica fleet didn't have all those things to begin with it. The people of the colonies before the fall didn't even have all that to begin with, and after the Cylon attack pretty much everything they had was gone.
The crew of Serenity were nowhere near as desperate as the people in BSG. I don't see how their cheery good humor is relevant at all.
You made sure to watch every episode of a show you hate 'at least twice'?You're right, an itemized list is unlikely to change my mind, but saying I "lack taste" is an ad-hominem attack which is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Isn't there a better way of replying to my point of view (see: Harvey, David cgc) than simply dismissing my opinions as "lacking taste"? Besides, after watching every episode of nuBSG at least twice, I'm confident that a completely objective itemized list would reaffirm my point that the negativity and proclivity toward melodrama in nuBSG outweighs reasonable and rational behavior (and, yes, humanity isn't always rational, but it rational behavior is underrepresented in nuBSG).
Better watch it a third time, just to be sure! And when you still don't like it make sure to come back and complain about it some more.
Only God could like Voyager.
There was a recent episode of CSI that poked fun at BSG. The episode is called "A Space Oddity" and it's about the team investigating the murder of the star and showrunner of a new scifi TV series called Astro Quest Redux. Some of the action took place at a convention where fans of Astro Quest (a show very much like the original Star Trek) got to see the star and showrunner introduce the first clip of the remake, Astro Quest Redux (which is dark and gritty, much like the new Battlestar Galactica). Anyway, after we saw the fans get a look at Redux, a man jumped up and shouted... "YOU SUCK!" to the showrunner for debasing the classic. That man was played by Ron Moore. The rest of the attending fans joined in, some of whom were played by the cast members of BSG. Kate Vernon from BSG and Jaime Ray Newman from Stargate Atlantis also guest stared. I thought it was a funny episode. If you haven't seen it, find it and check it out if you can.
CSI 9x20: "A Space Oddity"
CSI 9x20: "A Space Oddity"
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