Nobody said it was. I said that those concepts, by at least the 23rd century, have been subject to such a huge degree of modification that they are no longer intelligible as such by OUR standards.
Provide evidence of such modification, not assumptions.
I have already done so in past posts.
No, you have not, you have merely repeated an assumption.
And these commands share resources and personnel in such a dynamic and varied way I am reasonably sure at this point that the Federation is an
adhocracy.
Please describe to me the manner in which the numerous bureaucracies of the Federation share resources and personnel.
It or its members and agents will create and destroy new organizations based on need and circumstances wit varying degrees of centralization and an extremely diverse set of directives and protocols. How it it be otherwise for what is, by definition, a massive interplanetary alliance between hundreds of different cultures on hundreds of different worlds?
It could
easily end up being extremely centralized and rigidly regulated. The size of the Federation has no bearing on that, especially since it's so easy to transmit data from one side of it to the other.
On top of that, I would be supremely surprised if there are not Starfleet Academy campuses on Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar (though that is speculative).
If there were, surely Spock would have attended--and later been an instructor at--the one on Vulcan.
No, because his whole reason for joining Starfleet in the first place -- as revealed in this year's film in a scene that would not have been affected by Nero's temporal incursion -- was to get away from a Vulcan society that he had recognized would never accept him as an equal.
And I'm still puzzled by the lack of Andorians in Starfleet; their absence is conspicuous enough that I think they still have their own fleet.
I don't consider that remarkable at all. DS9 established with the Dominion War that Starfleet literally has hundreds and hundreds of ships and starbases, yet we've only ever seen four Federation crews up close. Meanwhile, references to all-Vulcan crews in TOS ("The Immunity Syndrome") and DS9 ("Take Me Out the Holosuite") establish that the FSF practices some degree of species segregation for its crews. So it's not too surprising that between only seeing a small fragment of Starfleet and Starfleet practicing species segregation that we might not run into any Andorians, or Tellarites, or Ullians, or Zakdorn, even though they all have officers in Starfleet somewhere.
I have already cited numerous episodes and films in which the FSF is referred to as a military.
Asked and answered: BY ANALOGY ONLY.
No, Starfleet was explicitly referred to
as a military. You especially cannot rationally claim that they'd call it a court-
martial if it wasn't actually
martial. That's like saying that it's not actually a starship, it's a boat.
There is no evidence that the "legalism" of noting the a military is the only institution in society that has the legal right...
Heh... The only institution that has--if you could only hear yourself--
legal right to use force. That's an EARTH law from 400 years in Star Trek's past. Starfleet is not a 20th century Earth organization.
Are you seriously going to argue that Hungry Horta's Pizza and Rock Delivery Service has the legal right to imprison a pizza delivery employee who breaks their internal code? Are you seriously going to argue that any non-Starfleet organization other than the Federation government itself has the right to use force on its members?
Are you going to argue that Hungry Horta's Pizza and Rock Delivery Service is allowed to lock up its employees if they violate the Pizza Delivery Code?
You'd have to ask the Horta. It basically depends on how serious pizza delivery is to their culture, and how their culture and psychology work. For example there are races--the Hiroddan, for example--who would prosecute and imprison some of their members for mispronouncing a greeting.
And meanwhile, that would surely be a violation of the Guarantees of the Federation Constitution and would get such a culture kicked out of the Federation.
To claim that I "disagree with Star Trek" on that issue is a complete non sequitur,
It's as simple as this: CHARACTERS in Star Trek insist that Earth does not use money. YOU have claimed that it does.
No, OTHER CHARACTERS have claimed that it does.
That YOU can't bring yourself to accept that
Star Trek has contradicted itself on this issue does not mean it has not.
Of course it is. It may not be called by the same word, and we all agree that additional functions may develop or be abolished, and we all agree that the way in which it approaches its basic function can evolve over time, but the basic concept of an institution legally empowered to use violence in the defense of the state and to use force on its members has existed as long as civilization has, and will exist until civilization disbands.
Sure, "an organization legally empowered to use violence" will always exist. At issue here is whether or not "an organization legally empowered to use violence" always will--or even always has--referred exclusively to "the military."
Whether the specific word is used, the concept is the same. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck, even if the word being used for ducks is
el pato.
In this case, the Federation has legally empowered its exploration agencies to use violence. They probably have a pretty good reason for this, not least of which may be something implicit in Starfleet that all Federation members find sufficiently trustworthy. That "the organization legally empowered to use violence" is defined as "the military" is an idiosyncrasy of the English language and a convention of international law that, again, I would not expect to be universal, or eternal.
The label itself was not the point, and that's why I established what the word
military means before describing
why the Federation Starfleet is a military. If you want to pretend that the word being used to describe the organization legally empowered to use violence in defense of the state is now
grimptup, then, fine, Starfleet is the Federation's
grimptup just like the U.S. Armed Forces are the United States's
grimptups. The
word is not the point, the concept behind the word is the point.
Having said that, there have been numerous references to Starfleet as the military that were
not analogies, so the evidence seems to indicate that the world
military is still used to refer to an organization legally empowered to use violence to defend the state.
Or let's put this another way: the Vulcan High Command was legally empowered to use violence. Was the Vulcan High Command their military?
Um,
yeah. In fact, Vulcan was a
de facto military dictatorship until Archer, T'Pol, and T'Pau overthrow Administrator V'Las.
Then why is it called a military by David Marcus in Star Trek II?
It's not. David is COMPARING Starfleet to the military, and his mother disagrees.
No, he's not, and no, she does not. Read my signature: David explicitly calls Starfleet the military and complains that scientists are always its pawns. His mother does not contest that Starfleet is a military, she contests that Starfleet has kept the peace. There's nothing
analogous about it. The dialogue is explicit: Starfleet is a military.
By Benjamin Sisko in "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost?"
Does he? You'll need to quote that line for me.
From the script for "Homefront:"
JARESH-INYO
Hmm. I understand the need for
increased security, but...
(referring to the PADD)
Blood screenings and phaser
sweeps?
SISKO
They've proven very effective on
Deep Space Nine.
DEEP SPACE NINE: "Homefront" - 11/04/95 - ACT TWO 26.
26 CONTINUED:
JARESH-INYO
I'm sure they have. But I hope
you'll keep in mind that this is
Earth, not a military
installation.
SISKO
(to the President)
Sir, the thought of filling the
streets with armed troops is as
disturbing to me as it is to you.
But not as disturbing as the
thought of a Jem'Hadar army
landing on Earth without
opposition. The Jem'Hadar are the
most brutal and efficient soldiers
I've ever encountered. They don't
care about conventions of war, or
protecting civilians. They won't
limit themselves to military
targets. They'll be waging the
kind of war that Earth hasn't seen
since the founding of the Federation.
From the script for "Paradise Lost:"
11 CONTINUED: (2)
Sisko and Odo exchange a look. Sisko has to take a
moment to gather his thoughts. This is tremendously
difficult for him but he pushes on.
SISKO
Sir, I believe that certain
Starfleet officers, led by Admiral
Leyton, are conspiring to
overthrow the legitimate
government of the Federation.
and replace it with military rule.
And as the President reacts, as much to Odo and Sisko's
grim demeanor as to Sisko's words, we...
FADE OUT.
END OF ACT ONE
Leyton is reaching out to Sisko, but Sisko refuses to
cross the gulf between them.
SISKO
My duty is to protect the
Federation.
LEYTON
Which is what we're trying to do.
SISKO
What you're trying to do is seize
control of Earth and place it
under military rule.
LEYTON
If that's what it takes to stop
the Dominion.
SISKO
Do you think the other Federation
worlds are going to sit back and
let their President be replaced by
a military dictatorship?
LEYTON
Hardly a dictatorship, Ben.
No less than five times is Starfleet referred to as a military: Starfleet Starbase Deep Space 9 is called a military installation by President Jaresh-Inyo; Starfleet targets of the Jem'Hadar are called military targets by Sisko; the idea of Starfleet directly ruling the Federation is referred to as military rule three times. Heck, when Sisko calls it a military dictatorship, the coup's leader contests the idea of it being a dictatorship, not the idea of it being military.
For that you would have to find an example of where "military" is actually defined in the 24th century.
Are we going to start assuming that every English word in
Star Trek has changed meanings when there's no evidence that it has, and when said word is used to mean in an identical manner to its present-day usage?
The layout of United Earth Starfleet Headquarters, seen in "Demons"/"Terra Prime," is completely different from the earliest Federation Starfleet Headquarters
And the VAB at Cape Canaveral looks totally different from any of the buildings used during the Mercury-Gemini program. The only thing they have in common is being at Cape Canaveral.
No, they also have the fact that they're both run by the United States government's NASA program in common; the buildings used by the Mercury-Gemini program were not being run by the State of Texas's "Texas Aeronautics and Space Administration."
Yeah, and the U.S. Navy and U.K. Royal Navy share a lot of terms, technology, and practices. Doesn't make them the same institution.
Indeed. On the other hand the U.S. Air Force is the same thing as the old Army Air Corps,
No, it's not, it's the successor organization of the Army Air Corps.
and the U.S. National Guard is (basically) the same thing as the militia.
No, they're not, they're the successor organizations of the state militia. And several states have maintained their original militias, too, organized as State Defense Forces that, unlike the National Guard, cannot be called into federal service.
No, they're both the overall mission of Starfleet.
Absolutely. And they are both the overall mission of the WHOLE Starfleet. Exploration, however, has always been depicted as its
primary mission, which makes sense since Starfleet spends alot more time doing that then anything else.
No, the ships we've followed have spent more time doing that than anything else. But numerous episodes have established that there are plenty of Starfleet ships and bases permanently dedicated to defense missions -- which makes sense, since the Federation is surrounded by hostile imperialists who would invade at a moment's notice if the majority of Starfleet was out beyond UFP borders exploring.
Defense and exploration are
both Starfleet's primary missions, and I promise you that neither one is seen as being more important than the other.
No one's arguing, after all, that this is a military that functions exactly like modern militaries or that doesn't have another additional primary function. Just that it shares the defining trait of a what we today call a military and that it is therefore a military, even if they use a different word for the concept.
What we disagree on here is whether "military" is just another word for "the organization legally empowered to use violence against your enemies." It's a question of whether we're arguing legalisms or word usage; that definition is a matter of legal parlance, where actual word usage is less concise and--especially in English--the concept of "military" has connotations far beyond mere legality.
No, it doesn't. "Military" only means "the armed forces." That's it. Those other connotations are things that people with specific political agendas have added to it -- whether those connotations are "honor" or "service" or those connotations are "militarism" or "violence" or "jingoism." But they're not a part of the real definition of the term. They're not a part of the basic concept.
I am arguing legalism, not word usage. I'll happily concede that Starfleet is much less militarist
ic than modern militaries; it operates very differently and has additional missions. But in terms of the specific legal meaning of the organization legally empowered to defend the state, Starfleet is the Federation's military, even if they use a different word to refer to that legal concept.
There is no evidence that the Federation actually absorbed United Earth or its starfleet, and in fact Ronald D. Moore noted that when writing "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost," they had intended to include a reference to the Federation President overriding the UE government before cutting it for simplicity's sake.
That's sort of what I meant. Earth gave up control of its own Starfleet and handed it over to Federation control. If they did NOT do so, then you have to wonder--if they are two different organizations--where Earth Starfleet is today.
I always presumed that the ships and personnel of the United Earth Starfleet, Andorian Imperial Guard, Vulcan High Command, and Tellarite starfleet were all handed over to the newly-created Federation Starfleet, and that those organizations were then either abolished or abolished and replaced with successor organizations, in the same way that the Massachusetts State Navy effectively ceased to exist after the founding of the Continental Navy and, then, the U.S. Navy.
