• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Non-fans of TWoK....

For me, the big problem is and always has been Khan. I know - he's a legendary Trek villain. I know - other people find him fascinating and compelling and all that stuff. I know - other people think he's just as cool as cool can possibly be.

But I don't. To me - and I'm not saying this is right, I'm just saying this is how he's always seemed to me - he's like...like...like a Bond villain. You know, the stereotypical Bad Guy Out for Revenge. He really should have a black mustache that he twirls as he says Evil Villain-type stuff.

And I have to agree about the uniforms and the "reset aspect," too.
Totally agree. The "superior intellect" is a fucking dimwit. And, I never thought the whole Ahab angle worked at all.

But for me or it me it all comes down to:

ALL the major plot points happen off-screen. This is the kind of mistake best left for Freshmen film students.

There are a few other things:

*Why did Khan have Ceti Eels? If they're so dangerous, why keep them around? Did he use them? Did the so-called "great leader" have to resort to literally brain washing his followers in order to keep them loyal?

*What was Spock really doing in the Radiation chamber? Suddenly, the ship can't go to warp, so he runs down there, sticks his hands in the upside down fishbowl, and suddenly all is good. Did he give it a mind meld? If it was a persistent problem from the first attack, why didn't they send guys in there with radiation suits on and fix the problem normally? If you know you're going into battle, having the ability to escape should be priority one.

*Two of the worst examples of deus ex machia I've ever seen. Voyager took a lot of heat for its excessive use of them, but this gets a free pass? WTF?
 
DS9Sega covered most of the really glaring plot holes, but there is one other thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet that just makes me tear my hair out. During the first encounter with the Reliant, what the hell is with Kirk just refusing to put up the shields??
That one bugs me too. There's just no logic to it. It they were making first contact with an alien species, or approaching something like V'Ger, and Kirk wanted to avoid appearing aggressive or something like that, I could understand his hesitation at raising shields. But in this case, we're talking about a Federation starship. If nothing's wrong and it's just a simple hardware failure blocking communications, Reliant's captain is going to understand why Kirk raised shields. He's not gonna suddenly start firing. And if anything is wrong, you've taken the proper precautions. Those shields should have been up from the moment Kirk observed "This is damn peculiar."

In addition, if we cut him some slack on that, there are two occasions when it becomes crystal clear that something bad is about to happen. First, the Reliant sends a message explaining the reason for the lack of communications. Spock confirms that message is false. Red flag number one. Second, Reliant raises her own shields. Big, glaring red flag number two. That Kirk ignores both of those events and waits until weapons are locked onto his ship to raise shields goes beyond bad judgement and into just plain incompetence.

Because if they had some old charts of the system and were specifically looking for the sixth planet & its orbit----they still would have gone to the trouble of locating all the other planets in the system before beaming down to the planet currently in the orbit of the sixth planet.
Sarcasm aside, I get what you're saying, but we're not talking about a sailing ship with a paper map. We're talking about a starship with 23rd century sensors and an advanced computer system. As they approached the system, the computer should have alerted someone -- the science officer, the navigator, anyone -- that a system which is supposed to have six planets now has only five. The idea that an entire planet being missing form a system went unnoticed by the science officer, the navigator, the helmsman, and the ship's computer is ludicrous at best. And even if we grant that, Khan states that Ceti Alpha VI exploded six months after they were left there. Which means it's been gone for almost fifteen years. And in that time, not a single sensor probe, monitoring station, or starship has noticed either the huge explosion in the Ceti Alpha system or the absence of one of its planets? Not a chance.

*What was Spock really doing in the Radiation chamber? Suddenly, the ship can't go to warp, so he runs down there, sticks his hands in the upside down fishbowl, and suddenly all is good. Did he give it a mind meld? If it was a persistent problem from the first attack, why didn't they send guys in there with radiation suits on and fix the problem normally? If you know you're going into battle, having the ability to escape should be priority one.
Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise tries to explain this by stating that some sort of manual adjustment can be made to whatever is in that pedestal. I think it may have been the dilithium crystals, actually. It stretches credibility a bit, but at least it's something. But on the broader point, yeah, even if they hadn't planned in advance for someone to have to go in there, there are twenty guys in radiation suits standing around engineering through the whole film. Scotty was even wearing the radiation gloves that Spock ultimately used. No one even needed time to change clothes. Just put a helmet on and go. Again, the idea that engineering would be wholly unprepared to deal with a catastrophic situation such as that, and that the science officer would need to come down from the bridge to fix it, is also ludicrous.
 
Again, the idea that engineering would be wholly unprepared to deal with a catastrophic situation such as that, and that the science officer would need to come down from the bridge to fix it, is also ludicrous.
That in particular undermines the whole emotional content of Spock's death to me. Can you say "Plot device"?
I knew that you could.;)
 
Sarcasm?

I think it is absolutely impossible for a starship to enter a system and not know the location of every planet--even if it was behind the sun from the direction the starship was entering the system. It couldn't happen and it ruins the movie!
 
Again, the idea that engineering would be wholly unprepared to deal with a catastrophic situation such as that, and that the science officer would need to come down from the bridge to fix it, is also ludicrous.
That in particular undermines the whole emotional content of Spock's death to me. Can you say "Plot device"?
I knew that you could.;)
The thing of it is, they could have thought up an infinate number of ways to do it that would have been better.

That's sort of the point of this exercise. If they can't even get the simple minutiae of the most important scene in the story right, then why hail it as such a great film?
 
Because it's got KHAAAAAAAN! in it. I guess. I'm attempting to be understanding here, and probably failing.
 
Sarcasm aside, I get what you're saying, but we're not talking about a sailing ship with a paper map. We're talking about a starship with 23rd century sensors and an advanced computer system. As they approached the system, the computer should have alerted someone -- the science officer, the navigator, anyone -- that a system which is supposed to have six planets now has only five. The idea that an entire planet being missing form a system went unnoticed by the science officer, the navigator, the helmsman, and the ship's computer is ludicrous at best. And even if we grant that, Khan states that Ceti Alpha VI exploded six months after they were left there. Which means it's been gone for almost fifteen years. And in that time, not a single sensor probe, monitoring station, or starship has noticed either the huge explosion in the Ceti Alpha system or the absence of one of its planets? Not a chance.

Incidentally, this is one reason I think some of the novels should be canonized. They contain details from the authors which often help to explain some of the problems with the films, and at least cut the glare of the errors down some. The TWOK novelization suggested that the system was poorly known at the time of "Space Seed" and still so 15 years later, and that the body which exploded was the moon of Ceti Alpha 5, rather than a whole separate planet. While the naming scheme makes a lot less sense that way, I do consider that explanation more consistent with how relatively limited the damage was to CA5.

The fact that the system is so poorly mapped and remote is one reason Kirk chose to send them there to begin with, and Chekov does realize that something's wrong when they enter the system because the Reliant isn't receiving the correct sensor information. He just fails to put the pieces together until they run into Khan.

* shrugs * :D
 
TWOK is a big let-down for me after TMP. It lacks the style and design excellence, the cinematic spectacle and the thought-provoking subject matter of it's predecessor. And so, frankly, do all the ST movies that followed.

I still regard these first 2 as probably the best of the Star Trek movies (priori to STIX), but TWOK is overrated, at least to me.

And those uniforms suck.
 
...

*What was Spock really doing in the Radiation chamber? Suddenly, the ship can't go to warp, so he runs down there, sticks his hands in the upside down fishbowl, and suddenly all is good. Did he give it a mind meld?
...


Regarding the fatal encounter with the umbrella stand, one reviewer said that Spock appeared to be mixing the matter and anti-matter with his bare hands, and whatever it is it's clearly dangerous.
 
But I don't. To me - and I'm not saying this is right, I'm just saying this is how he's always seemed to me - he's like...like...like a Bond villain. You know, the stereotypical Bad Guy Out for Revenge. He really should have a black mustache that he twirls as he says Evil Villain-type stuff.
That's because he is. The movie really isn't about him, it's about Kirk. Khan is there to serve Kirk. The only requirement for this story is that the villain be someone who is Kirk's physical and mental superior, so that facing him is a "no win scenario." Realistically, Kirk can't defeat someone who is his superior. We learn how he will defeat Khan when we finally find out how he defeated the kobiashi maru. Khan is there not to be a compelling character in his own right, he's there purely to serve Kirk's character. And he does that very well.

ALL the major plot points happen off-screen.
Such as?
 
Well, Hober, I disagree with both of your points. I don't think the movie is supposed to be just about Kirk - I think it's supposed to be about Khan, too - he's mentioned in the title, for goodness' sake - in which case he needs to be something besides a mustache-twirling (metaphorically speaking) Evil Villain. He needed to be a recognizable person, and to me, he wasn't. He was, in fact, borderline ridiculous, and sometimes he went well over the border, if I remember correctly.

And even if you're right and he's there mainly to serve Kirk's character, I disagree that he does this "very well."

So you and I just have very different perspectives on what this movie is supposed to do, and that is no doubt why we have very different perspectives on how well it succeeds. Eh, that's the way it goes. For what it's worth, I'm sure the majority of Trek fans agree with you.
 
Last edited:
ALL the major plot points happen off-screen.
Such as?
Well, the whole reason Khan is after Kirk in the first place is a good place to start.

The Genesis involvement with the story is another. For that matter, his torturing of the scientists is another. It was the most evil thing he did in the film, except we didn't actually witness him doing it, so we'll just have to take his word for it. For all we know, Joachim did all the butchering while he was over in the corner playing with his PSP and sucking on some Twislers.

There are more, I've pointed them out several times before. If you're interested do a search.

That's because he is. The movie really isn't about him, it's about Kirk. Khan is there to serve Kirk. The only requirement for this story is that the villain be someone who is Kirk's physical and mental superior, so that facing him is a "no win scenario."
That's a big pill to swallow. If anything, they were both competing for the Idiot of the Year award. They both acted stupidly and neither showed any indication they had any tactical competence at all. In both cases they were out smarted by their own first-officers. Are you sure the film wasn't supposed to be the Spock and Joachim show?

As a matter of fact, the only reason Kirk won was because his first officer had impeccable timing with pulling two very convenient deus ex machina out of his ass.

Khan's only real show of strategic prowess was when he some how miraculously seized an entire starship with his pitiful little band. Of course, he had "surprise" on his side not to mention the aid of a brain melted captain and first officer. But still, you'd think someone would have had the sense to realize something was up. I guess the Reliant crew really is the most pathetic one to ever serve Starfleet. Of course, we'll never know because, that's right, it happened off screen.


Realistically, Kirk can't defeat someone who is his superior. We learn how he will defeat Khan when we finally find out how he defeated the kobiashi maru. Khan is there not to be a compelling character in his own right, he's there purely to serve Kirk's character. And he does that very well.
Well? He just spews endless streams of prose and prattles on about how "smart" he is. He doesn't actually do anything.

And Kirk didn't beat Khan. Spock did. As a patter of fact, when it came down to crunch time, Kirk had his fat-ass firmly planted in the captain's chair where he sat with a helpless dear in the headlights look. The man of action pretty much gave up. That sort of clashes with this supposed theme you've presented, don't you think?
 
As someone who has always felt that TWOK is grossly overrated, I figured I might as well post in this thread.

I think it's overrated by Trek fans as well; it's not brilliant. Meyer was declared "the savior of Star Trek" by virtue of simply making a competent commercial movie for a reasonable cost, where those before him had failed to do so at any price.

TWOK is just a good low budget movie which a lot of people still find entertaining a generation later, and most Trek films are not real good movies.

ST:TMP as a particular example is a mediocre film which cost way too much but is beloved of a small subset of Trek fans, and even among that group it seems to serve mainly as a subject of excuse-making and tale-telling.

The TWOK script is tighter and works better as a story than any of the other Trek scripts, certainly including Abrams's Star Trek - and the less said about the script for ST:TMP, the kinder to its several authors-of-record, living and dead.

Still, comparing Trek to Trek in those respects is shooting fish in a barrel.
 
ST:TMP as a particular example is a mediocre film which cost way too much but is beloved of a small subset of Trek fans, and even among that group it seems to serve mainly as a subject of excuse-making and tale-telling.
TMP actually didn't cost that much to make when you factor the artificially inflated figure of adding the costs of an aborted Phase II series to the film's budget. Take that out (which had nothing to do with the film's production) and you have a much more reasonable budget figure.
 
As I said, it seems to serve mainly as a subject of excuse-making. Conversations about ST:TMP contain very high percentage of "yeah, but," "you don't understand," and "if they'd only..." statements...
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top