Non-fans of TWoK....

[Warped9]

TWoK is arguably one of the most favoured if not the most favoured overall of the Trek films. Still, there are dissenters and here's a chance for them to speak their mind.

Please note, though, that it would be nice if you could say why you're not fond of the film. "It sucks" isn't sufficiently illuminating.


Speaking for myself when I first saw TWoK in 1982 I quite liked it except for some of the production details. Most specifically I absolutely loathed the new uniforms. I just didn't think they were Star Trek. They looked very odd and seemed more at home in a film adaptation of an Honor Harrington novel.

Subsequent veiwings of the film found me ever more disappointed with it. I didn't like how some of the characters behaved, particularly Kirk. Yes, there were some good character moments and the film had good pacing and energy, but the logic flaws kept jarring me out of the story like a slap upside the back of my head.

I also disliked the sort of reset aspect of it. After TMP I was ready for the crew to seek out new adventures on the frontier again. Yet in TWoK Kirk was back to chafing behind a desk as an Admiral and the Enterprise was a freaking training ship manned by cadets with the familiar crew holding their hands. This was boldly going? I think not!

In the end I just can't accept TWoK (and what followed in its wake) as of the same continuity as what came before, even though I can still see the film's positive aspects. It's not a bad film in itself--indeed in of itself it's quite a decent film--but for me it's just not a good Star Trek film. It just misses on too many things.

 

[JustKate]

For me, the big problem is and always has been Khan. I know - he's a legendary Trek villain. I know - other people find him fascinating and compelling and all that stuff. I know - other people think he's just as cool as cool can possibly be.

But I don't. To me - and I'm not saying this is right, I'm just saying this is how he's always seemed to me - he's like...like...like a Bond villain. You know, the stereotypical Bad Guy Out for Revenge. He really should have a black mustache that he twirls as he says Evil Villain-type stuff.

And I have to agree about the uniforms and the "reset aspect," too.

 

[Therin of Andor]

My penpal saw it once in the cinema, hated the Ceti Eels, hated Spock dying and - although she bought the VHS - she's never played the tape beyond the start of the eel scene.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I tried rewatching this recently and found it to be quite plodding. It takes forEVER for anything to even happen. The cadet subplot could have been reduced to just Saavik alone, because the cadet training cruise was just dull.

The characters were moronic/borderline retarded throughout the whole thing too. If you were Commander Chekov (and I know he wasn't in Space Seed, but let's pretend like he was, since this movie does the same thing), why oh WHY would you conduct a survey in the Ceti Alpha system, the last known whereabouts of one of 20th century Earth's most vile men? And how could you pick up a minor energy flux and not read a whole goddamn ship and twenty men? And how in hell did they mistake Ceti Alpha V for Ceti Alpha VI?

I really don't like the transporter effect in this film, although it is a primitive version of my favorite effect, the one from IV-VI. The uniforms I loathe, and the hairstyles are very unflattering. Shatner's especially. All accounts say this movie was made on the cheap to make up for the astronomical cost of The Motion Picture, and it shows.

The music is superb, though. Ricardo Montalban is another one of the redeeming factors in this movie. A few of the scenes with Khan and Kirk are entertaining, but the rest of the movie just doesn't do it for me. But the battle in the Mutara Nebula and subsequent Genesis Detonation are excellent.

It seems more than anything the script could've used a polish to make it truly remarkable, but I don't share in the opinion that this is the be all end all Star Trek movie.

Oh, and it set the stage for Berman and co. to foolishly try to top Khan in each of their movies with lackluster villains. Ru'afo? Shinzon? Pfft.

 

[Maurice]

The things I dislike about it are the numerous plot holes and illogic,

Khan isn't compelling at all. Poor Ricardo: they gave him ONE good scene when he first appears, and then that's it. He gets a few scenery chewing moments, but that's all. We're TOLD he's a superior man, but other than him hefting Chekov off the floor in a ridiculous arm-extended fashion, and tossing aside a chunk of debris on the Reliant, illustrating strength, we see nothing to show his supposed superior intellect. He's a magnetic actor, but a poorly written character.

The stupidity is too hard to swallow:

• Reliant's crew can't tell Ceti Alpha V from VI
• Kirk gets an emergency call about danger to a super-secret project and proceeds there at warp 5...which is like an ambulance puttering at 35 MPH on a freeway.
• McCoy's stupidity. Chekov flat out tells him "they put creatures in our bodies to control our minds," and what does the good Dr. do? Nothing. He doesn't scan them or check them for evidence of that. He says that it's all right and that they're safe now. Next thing you know, they're drawing phasers on them.
• The Genesis torpedo, designed to transform planets, blows up in a nebula, sucks the nebula together and makes a planet. Idiotic.
• The overuse of literary references in place of actually having something to say about the themes being alluded to.
• etc., etc.

 

[Sovay]

I agree with most everything said so far. My main problem with it was also the use of Khan as a villain. I mean I know he's an ass in the series, but he agreed to go down to the planet with his people, he knew it wasn't Kirk's fault the planet went to hell, and yet he's filled with this mad vengence because, basically, Kirk didn't come back to check on them.
I mean, we're supposed to believe he's this super-human powerful figure and yet he's getting pissy because Kirk didn't babysit him? I just can't reconcile that.

I don't hate the movie, but it's certainly not my favorite.

 

[Warped9]

All accounts say this movie was made on the cheap to make up for the astronomical cost of The Motion Picture, and it shows.

I agree with pretty much all the above criticisms. However, this quoted statement is a sticking point for me.

Yes, TWOK was budgeted to take advantage of existing sets from TMP. That said, though, while TMP was pricey for its time it wasn't outrageous. The big problem is that Paramount artificially inflated its purported cost by saddling the film with the money they'd already spent on the aborted Phase II television series. Strike that cost from TMP's actual budget and you save at least fifty million and likely more. Easily at least a third of TMP's purported budget was actual money spent on the aborted Phase II. And this figure is always repeated as gospel. Yet when you get to TMP's real cost of about 70-80 million or so (I believe but could be off a bit) then the film was much more reasonably budgeted and its returns look even better.

 

[RyuRoots]

I'm sure it's obvious by now that TWOK is no favorite of mine, and I apologize if I've ever been obnoxious about it in various threads. Though with a proper avenue for this discussion, my biggest problems with TWOK are related to the man in the title.

-Khan. And my frustrations with the character apply to Space Seed as well for the most part. Thing is, I like Khan as a concept. I think the uberhuman from the 90s filled with charisma and cunning and an innate physical strength is a fascinating idea for a villain, and could've been an anti-villain almost, like a worthy opponent for Kirk. But we never see ANY of the things that makes Khan a historical figure other than physical strength. Charisma? He just comes off like a creepy jerk. And before you say Macgivers (or whatever her name was), she was a walking bullshit plot device. That's not charisma, that's just bad writing. Cunning? His plans to hunt down the Enterprise in TWOK and to take over the ship on Space Seed were half-assed, and kinda stupid considering how little preparation they each had. He also seems to have an inability to plan ahead farther than like an hour. I mean, let's say he succeeded in Space Seed and he had the Enterprise. What's to stop Starfleet from sending half a dozen connies to blow the crap out of the Ent once they know what's going on? A similar question goes to the Reliant. And then consider, if Khan and his troops left the Enterprise without incident and spent a signifigant amount of time learning about the major powers in this time period and slowly built influence and more followers and THEN made some kind of move. And HE AGREED TO GO LIVE ON CETI ALPHA V. Kirk gave him the option of going to there or prison. He chose that one. We're told he's very intelligent, and since he's an adult, there are certain expectations of mental maturity. Yet he blames Kirk for something he should know for a fact was not his fault. This just makes him come off as generic bad guy number fifty billion or so. Just another in a heap of worthless film and television walking cliches. And to be frank, it undermines the entire movie since the revenge plot just seems stupid. What irritates me most about Khan is that he COULD have been something truly great, and TWOK could've been epic if Khan hadn't been so horribly, horribly, horribly handled. I definitely have more gripes about the film, but Khan is by far the biggest. I saw Space Seed first and I wasn't impressed, but I was hopeful going into the film since people regarded it so highly. I was extremely disappointed. He was the same generic one-dimensional villain parody that he was in Space Seed.

 

[Saito S]

As someone who has always felt that TWOK is grossly overrated, I figured I might as well post in this thread.

I more or less agree with much of what's been said so far. In particular, the deconstruction of why Khan was a rather uninspiring villain by JustKate and RyuRoots rang very true for me.

In addition, while I understand that they were trying to make something more action-y and exciting after TMP (and to be fair, I did find TMP to be a total snooze-fest of a film), I feel they really went overboard. It's like the movie kept beating me over the head with ACTION! and VIOLENCE! (the movie was absurdly bloody at times), so I wouldn't forget that it was more exciting than TMP. All it really did was make it feel like it didn't belong in Trek. And in the end... I found that it really WASN'T more exciting than TMP. I found them boring for different reasons, but nevertheless, I found them both boring.

DS9Sega covered most of the really glaring plot holes, but there is one other thing that I don't think has been mentioned yet that just makes me tear my hair out. During the first encounter with the Reliant, what the hell is with Kirk just refusing to put up the shields?? There's this long, drawn out scene, during which his bridge officers keep reporting more and more strange information, and yet he inexplicably never orders shields raised. Saavik's regulations quote (cut off by Spock) has been speculated to refer to raising shields during an encounter with a vessel when communications cannot be established, but putting that aside, common sense would have dictated raising the shields like fourteen different times during that scene. So finally, when Spock reports the Reliant is locking phasers, THEN Kirk orders shields up, far too late. And what happens next? The Reliant tears into the unshielded Enterprise, causing massive damage and likely killing at least a few cadets! Smooth move, Admiral!

Last thing about it that I'm going to touch on is the music. I really disliked the soundtrack in this movie. Seriously. There is a lot of Trek music I really like, and certainly a fair amount I don't like, but TWOKs score just came across as really cheesy and repetitive to me.

 

[Candlelight]

All I think of after a recent rewatch is Ricardo Montalban's boobies.

 

[Orac Zen]

I've never cared much for TWoK, either. Most of the reasons - the glaring plot holes, the sheer stupidity of some of the behaviour of the characters, Khan's whiny child reasoning for seeking revenge on Kirk and co - have been covered pretty well by everyone else so anything I could add would only be repetition. It's not horribly unwatchable, by any means, but whatever it is that makes so many consider it the be-all and end-all of Trek movies is completely lost on me. As ever, though, to each their own.

Last thing about it that I'm going to touch on is the music. I really disliked the soundtrack in this movie. Seriously. There is a lot of Trek music I really like, and certainly a fair amount I don't like, but TWOKs score just came across as really cheesy and repetitive to me.

Agreed. The soundtrack is horrible. The fact Horner basically recycled it for TSFS and Aliens just makes it grate even more.

 

[Grant]

This thread rocks.

I have always felt if Kirk had said "warp speed 8" it would have been such a better movie.

Also if Khan had specifically explained how Ceti Alpha 5 moved into Ceti Alpha 6's orbit----it would have made the movie much better.

I mean he was a genius and should have carefully followed the events and then explained them to Chekov & Terrell.

Because if they had some old charts of the system and were specifically looking for the sixth planet & its orbit----they still would have gone to the trouble of locating all the other planets in the system before beaming down to the planet currently in the orbit of the sixth planet.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I'm actually a big fan of the film, but this thread has been rather informative. It's unlikely that the discussion will change my opinion any, but it's quite interesting to see the criticisms of the film discussed so passionately and at such a high level. Just wanted to offer my $0.02. Good thread!

 

[Chrisisall]

I used to be a BIG fan of II & III, but over the years I've just soured on them some- to the point where I don't even own them. I was introducing my 10 year old Son to Trek this year, starting with TOS, which he LOVED. I then proceeded with all the movies, renting the ones I don't already have. He loved TMP, then hated WOK!!! He said no one was really like they were in TOS or TMP! He said the spaceship fights were good, but that was all. He was pretty "meh" on III as well. Then he LOVED IV (as I do, curiously enough- apple, meet tree). Then he said V was funny & he liked it, even if the idea of going to pay a call on God was stupid. And he liked VI as well (Didn't love it as much as I do, though). It was funny to see his take on all of them in the space of two days, with no adjustment time in between (We all had to wait YEARS in between, [Spock voice]...remember...[/Spock voice]?

Anyhow, I think WOK was just the wrong direction to take the crew in. It took the wonder of discovering new planets & civilizations away & replaced it with whale-quoting & posturing. I have high hopes for this new incarnation, however, and yearn to see the crew back in galaxy-spanning adventures again!

 

[Candlelight]

They should've gone back and killed Kennedy!

 

[Chrisisall]

They should've gone back and killed Kennedy!

You never would have been born then.

 

[Gary Sebben]

TWOK has a lot of good acting, good premises, and good moments in it. It may be the most fun Trek to quote. But for me much of it doesn't rise above corny. Roddenberry like to shit on the movies a lot because he was basically fired... again... but he was spot on in saying that Khan was 2D compared to who he was in Space Seed. This was a silly Conanesque barbarian with a mullet leading a bunch of sheep too young to be his compatriots in a fancy new ship (no, they aren't decedents of the original crew. Not enough time for them to get that old and Khan refers to them as pledging to him 200 years earlier). And that mullet, come on! He looks like Bea Arthur.

And I'll say to my dying breath, Spock's death was ridiculous. Kirk was incompetent throughout most of the movie and he and Scotty should have ordered someone into the chamber to fix it insted of waiting for death. It's just sad.

 

[Maurice]

Roddenberry ... was spot on in saying that Khan was 2D compared to who he was in Space Seed.

Sadly, Khan was 2D even in Space Seed. Kor or Kang were much better characters, with their own peculiar sense of honor and duty. Bennett confused Montalban's charisma with the character's.

 

[Chrisisall]

And that mullet, come on! He looks like Bea Arthur.

OMG!!!!

 

[Jon1701]

Firstly. TWOK is my favourite movie of all time. Period.

That said, it has aged quite badly. Specifically in the production design area. The uniforms, although I loved them at the time, just look bizarre now. Too dressy. Too stuffy. Maybe as a dress uniform, but why would you wear them day-to-day?

Its funny, I never liked the production design of TMP - but looking back now, it still seems fairly futuristic. McCoy-seventies-disco-collar aside the uniforms look quite practical.

Whilst I can recognise TWOK's flaws (hey, they've all got them), It reminds me specifically of a time, a place, a state of mind. When I watch it - I feel 7 years old again. Its like a warm blanket. I was born in the seventies so I experienced both the movies and the original series at the same time. The differences in style and tone were less apparent to me as I didn't experience the 10 year gap between series and movies.

It is Star Trek through-and-through for me and is no less part of the franchise than anything that came before or after it. I'd rather watch one of the movies than Season 3 of TOS anyday.