Unless they go horribly wrong, of course.
Personally, I think any species that builds self-replicating machines and sends them into an unknown environment should be fined 10 trillion quatloos.
Tell E.T. skeptics where to stick it
- Thread starter Itisnotlogical
- Start date
Unless they go horribly wrong, of course.
Personally, I think any species that builds self-replicating machines and sends them into an unknown environment should be fined 10 trillion quatloos.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Humanity can also be considered a Von Neumann machine - from a certain point of view.
Throughout our history, we multiplied - replicated - until we conquered the entire Earth. Not that there's anything wrong with that - sentience is the coolest thing that happened on Earth since the beginning of life.
Very soon - a few thousand years - if we don't blow ourselves up, we will have the means to expand to other stars.
An alien civilization could very well equate humanity with Von Neumann machines, increasing in numbers and spreading everywhere. The question is - how would it react to a humanity thus perceived?
Throughout our history, we multiplied - replicated - until we conquered the entire Earth. Not that there's anything wrong with that - sentience is the coolest thing that happened on Earth since the beginning of life.
Very soon - a few thousand years - if we don't blow ourselves up, we will have the means to expand to other stars.
An alien civilization could very well equate humanity with Von Neumann machines, increasing in numbers and spreading everywhere. The question is - how would it react to a humanity thus perceived?
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Any extrasolar planets we want to colonise will need terraforming. That will potentially take a long time. We'll have the means to travel to the stars centuries before we have the means to colonise other planets.
As a spreading life form, we would be treading our our alien neighbours territories, taking control of resources that they may want for themselves. Habitable worlds may be at a premium, and our expansion effort would need to be imperialistic in many ways.
We may not present a threat at present, or even in our early attempts at colonisation, but in time we would be. Would a sensible alien civilisation not be better off taking preemptive action against a potential threat before that threat is able to retaliate?
An advanced alien civilisation might not allow us to get a foothold if it sees us trying to colonize alien worlds.
In space, we are as small and as vulnerable as a mouse is here on earth. We would be wise to behave like one -- going quietly and stealthily. If we go bright and bold, we might unwittingly become an easy target for something bigger and territorial.
As a spreading life form, we would be treading our our alien neighbours territories, taking control of resources that they may want for themselves. Habitable worlds may be at a premium, and our expansion effort would need to be imperialistic in many ways.
We may not present a threat at present, or even in our early attempts at colonisation, but in time we would be. Would a sensible alien civilisation not be better off taking preemptive action against a potential threat before that threat is able to retaliate?
An advanced alien civilisation might not allow us to get a foothold if it sees us trying to colonize alien worlds.
In space, we are as small and as vulnerable as a mouse is here on earth. We would be wise to behave like one -- going quietly and stealthily. If we go bright and bold, we might unwittingly become an easy target for something bigger and territorial.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
I think O'Neill colonies are a much better option for colonizing space than terraforming planets.
O'Neill cylinders can be built relatively quickly and they would have all the conforts of home, unlike planets terraformed in hundreds/thousands of years.
The first experimental colonies could be built at the Lagrange points. It would make sense to build most colonies near the asteroid belt, where exploiting the asteroids' resources would ensure economic viability.
And when humanity aquires the tech to expand to other star system's - the sky will no longer be the limit
- an advanced civilization might build "orbitals" like those depicted in Iain Banks "Culture" series (structures with considerable advantages when compared to planets).
I said that humanity can be perceived as a Von Neumann machine by aliens. But these aliens - like all life - inevitably, evolved much the same way humans did. I doubt they have a doctrine that dictates the destruction of all life/von neumann machines for the simple reason that they're also life - or, at least, they were at one time. They may try and destroy Von Neumann machines that went berserk and kill everything in their path - but in this case, the reason for the alien agenda would be the agressivity of the von neumann's, not their ability to replicate.
Now - what form could the interactions between us and intelligent alien civilizations have?
I can tell you what aliens won't want from us. They won't be interested in mineral resources or something similar. The universe is full of these resources - and many of them are not in an alien gravity well that requires energy to traverse.
They won't want to use humans as slaves - robots are much easier to manage and more effective for menial labours, and any civilization stupid enough to give the decision-making to someone else won't survive for long.
Maybe they'll want to harvest our brains as a cheap end efficient alternative for their supercomputers
.
What could an alien civilization want with us?
It may want to study us or even to establish ties of friendship with humanity.
Or it may want to destroy/conquer us because, very soon - in galactic time - we will pose a threat to them. A preemtive strike, so to speak.
And, of course, their behaviour could be dictated by religion/doctrine/other cultural values.
O'Neill cylinders can be built relatively quickly and they would have all the conforts of home, unlike planets terraformed in hundreds/thousands of years.
The first experimental colonies could be built at the Lagrange points. It would make sense to build most colonies near the asteroid belt, where exploiting the asteroids' resources would ensure economic viability.
And when humanity aquires the tech to expand to other star system's - the sky will no longer be the limit
- an advanced civilization might build "orbitals" like those depicted in Iain Banks "Culture" series (structures with considerable advantages when compared to planets).I said that humanity can be perceived as a Von Neumann machine by aliens. But these aliens - like all life - inevitably, evolved much the same way humans did. I doubt they have a doctrine that dictates the destruction of all life/von neumann machines for the simple reason that they're also life - or, at least, they were at one time. They may try and destroy Von Neumann machines that went berserk and kill everything in their path - but in this case, the reason for the alien agenda would be the agressivity of the von neumann's, not their ability to replicate.
Now - what form could the interactions between us and intelligent alien civilizations have?
I can tell you what aliens won't want from us. They won't be interested in mineral resources or something similar. The universe is full of these resources - and many of them are not in an alien gravity well that requires energy to traverse.
They won't want to use humans as slaves - robots are much easier to manage and more effective for menial labours, and any civilization stupid enough to give the decision-making to someone else won't survive for long.
Maybe they'll want to harvest our brains as a cheap end efficient alternative for their supercomputers
.What could an alien civilization want with us?
It may want to study us or even to establish ties of friendship with humanity.
Or it may want to destroy/conquer us because, very soon - in galactic time - we will pose a threat to them. A preemtive strike, so to speak.
And, of course, their behaviour could be dictated by religion/doctrine/other cultural values.
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If an alien civilization simply wants us dead so we don't pose a future threat to them, we're never likely to even see them. You don't bother having a chat with cockroaches to explain why you're about to spray them with pesticide. All we'll probably know is that a few months before the end we spotted a series of asteroids on a collision course with us, we won't know "why".
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
I agree. If a species advanced enough to be capable of interstellar flight wants us dead, we'll never even see it coming - unlike what independence day, stargate and other movies/series would have one beleive.
That's why, if one day we discover an alien starship orbiting Earth, there's reason for optimism - it means that these aliens probably don't want to kill us.
That's why, if one day we discover an alien starship orbiting Earth, there's reason for optimism - it means that these aliens probably don't want to kill us.
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
They wouldn't need to deceive us in order to annihilate us. Why bother?
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
And you are condescending without reason. You should be sorry.
Maybe they like gloating. Perhaps they'd get a kick out of watching our reactions as they destroy us, who knows?
You don't really have much conception of how big the galaxy is, do you?
I'm well aware of how big the galaxy is, and I've spent a lot of time in my life reading about the cosmos. The universe is indeed a startlingly big place that makes us look insignificant, and I appreciate your point of view that we're such a small a mote of dust in the grand scheme of things that the Little Green Men could stroll right through our own neighbourhood and not even notice we are here.
However, maybe you don't have an appreciation for how long a civilization might have been nosing around for other life and what kind of technology they might have come up with to do so. Even at a fraction of the speed of light it would be possibly to survey large swaths of our galaxy on a scale of "only" thousands of years.
Here's the point: the chances of finding us in the universe is extremely small, however the odds are not zero. The chances of someone walking into an empty elevator shaft and falling fifty stories is remote. The chances of winning the lottery is remote. All kinds of things happen in our daily lives that we chalk up to coincidence that on the surface appear unlikely, like running into an old friend half-way around the world, and yet they happen.
I think we're splitting hairs over the difference between "not impossible" and "highly unlikely".
However, maybe you don't have an appreciation for how long a civilization might have been nosing around for other life and what kind of technology they might have come up with to do so. Even at a fraction of the speed of light it would be possibly to survey large swaths of our galaxy on a scale of "only" thousands of years.
Here's the point: the chances of finding us in the universe is extremely small, however the odds are not zero. The chances of someone walking into an empty elevator shaft and falling fifty stories is remote. The chances of winning the lottery is remote. All kinds of things happen in our daily lives that we chalk up to coincidence that on the surface appear unlikely, like running into an old friend half-way around the world, and yet they happen.
I think we're splitting hairs over the difference between "not impossible" and "highly unlikely".
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
The aliens don't need to trick us - there's no objective necessity for them to do so.
When we're taling about cultural/religous imperatives, all bets are off. They may be here to make us dress like ballerines and watch us dance, for all we know.
That's why I said "these aliens probably don't want to kill us".
Yeah, actually, I do. But my point was that WE are already nearly able to determine conditions on other worlds and whether there may be life, or even indications of INTELLIGENT life from TENS of light years out. Anyone who can actually travel between interstellar regions will be MUCH further ahead of us in that capacity and I suspect they WOULD utilize some protocol for SELECTING a destination, likely including evaluation of the conditions and environment of WHERE they were planning on going, including the potential for life or sustainability of their own physiology.
I guess your contention is that they'd just say, "Second star to the right and straight on til morning", and just see what was there when they arrived. That's about the ONLY way, you're going to "stumble" onto a civilization; if you don't bother LOOKING before you go. After all, interstllar travel, "isn't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
And you are pompous without justification. Lighten up and learn to tell when a joke is being made.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Here's that condescension again. Grow up, Zachary.
Okay, will do. Thanks for the advice. (You should really charge for your consultations, you know)
