DS9 Episodes- Silly Mistakes, NitPicks, Inaccuracies

[Captrek]

Of course the biggest obstacle is the "is it canon?" argument, but I like explainations that goes beyond canon...

I’m going to coin a new term: Implicit Canon. (If there’s already a term for this, I apologize and defer to existing tradition.)

When an apparent error in canon can be made correct by a reasonable speculated explanation, and there are no plausible competing theories, the one explanation that seems to fit the facts is “implicit canon.”

We can cross our fingers and hope that licensed writers (and especially canon writers) become aware of the problem and the offered explanation, and either respect that explanation or come up with another one that works just as well. Until and unless the only plausible theory is explicitly contradicted in canon, we should probably assume it’s true.

I think that my explanation for the apparent inconsistencies in the age of the Dominon qualifies as implicit canon. The apparently contradictory quotes are all consistent with this explanation, and nobody has offered another explanation that works well.

The Dominion HAD to be victorious if they never surrendered in battel!

That does not follow as a logically inescapable conclusion. They could have fought every battle to the last man. It could be that all the changelings were hunted down and killed, except those on the changelings’ hidden starless M-class planet. (How do you maintain an M-class environment on a planetary scale without a star? That would seem to imply a level of technology far beyond anything seen in Star Trek. Anybody want to fanwank this?) The changelings, with only one world under their control, might then have eschewed launching campaigns they could not win in favor of laying low until they were in a position to reassert their power and be victorious. That’s not the same thing as surrendering.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Good arguement, But....

It's still interesting that between two different writers, it is Behr that uses the 2,000 date, and Moore that uses the 10,000 year date.

Behr first uses it in "To the Death" and then two seasons and many episodes later in W.Y.L.B... Moore uses the term in "Dogs of War".

Is this a case of Behr being consistent with his portrayal of the Dominion being 2,000 years old, while Moore chose an older date?

I've read that in long running series, sometimes contradictions pop up because various writers, with different ideas, or new ideas, or even not a fan of the series, introduce new ideas that contradict older running storylines ..

Remember the problem with Data using contractions? In the first season he uses them, and then later, it is established he can't use them or can't master them.. How do writers forget these things, un--less.. lol..


Weyoun could just as easily have said, "the Dominion has endured for over 10,000 years and", especially if he wanted to convey their entire history (never surrendering, etc.) or just how long the Dominion has lasted.

Another nit for Rocks and Shoals- for firing on Sisko's crew and disobeying oomrders, Remata'Klan demotes the 4th Jem Hadar to 6th.

Yet in the final scene when they are moving towards Sisko and his crew, and Sisko yells out to him, Remata'Klan tells the Jem Hadar to hold their positions- it is the same 4th who is motioning the other Jem Hadar to hold and stay down...

He was supposed to be demoted and the next Jem Hadar should be taking his place.

 

[Captrek]

Good arguement, But....

It's still interesting that between two different writers, it is Behr that uses the 2,000 date, and Moore that uses the 10,000 year date.

Certainly what happened behind the scenes is that the two writers had different ideas, and somehow nobody caught the apparent inconsistency before it hit the air. I’m under no illusions that my fanwank is what the writers had in mind. But it works, and that’s what matters. Fanwanks like this give writers something to work with when they don’t want to contradict any part of apparently self-contradictory canon.

 

[Fish1941]

Certainly what happened behind the scenes is that the two writers had different ideas, and somehow nobody caught the apparent inconsistency before it hit the air. I’m under no illusions that my fanwank is what the writers had in mind. But it works, and that’s what matters.

In your opinion. It didn't in mine.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Good arguement, But....

It's still interesting that between two different writers, it is Behr that uses the 2,000 date, and Moore that uses the 10,000 year date.

Certainly what happened behind the scenes is that the two writers had different ideas, and somehow nobody caught the apparent inconsistency before it hit the air. I’m under no illusions that my fanwank is what the writers had in mind. But it works, and that’s what matters. Fanwanks like this give writers something to work with when they don’t want to contradict any part of apparently self-contradictory canon.

It does..and what's more it's fun.

The Dominion is created by the Founders as a concept; Because of this, they are hunted even more: finds Vorta who helps them- promises they'll be part of a great empire they're already creating...

A few thousand years later, after much manipulation and experimentation, they create the Jem Hadar, who for 2,000 years defend the Dominion successfuly and expand their empire to what is now..

It's cool to fill in the gaps, but the funny thing is works better than what some writers come up with...

Still...the nitpick..because Weyoun mentioned only the Dominion, and not specificly the Jem Hadar in "To To Death" , it still has to stand as a nitpick, unless, somewhere, in another episode, there is some info about the dominion, something that can be used to explain it more...

 

[Captrek]

But it works, and that’s what matters.

In your opinion. It didn't in mine.

Fair enough. Nobody had expressed an objection other than Nightdiamond’s “The Dominion HAD to be victorious if they never surrendered in battle” objection, which is easily dismissed. So I just assumed people were OK with it.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Hey, it's popular nit, lol... the debate will continue I'm sure...

I have another Nitpick involving the difference between the Obsidian Order and Central Command-who's in charge?

In "The Defiant", Dukat says that both organizations were supposed to answer to the Detapa Counsel, but in reality they run their own affairs.

Central Command even had an observer from the Obsidian Order there, who was seeming to call some shots. She warned them not to go into a system that 'belongs to the Obsidian Order'..

They seem to be on equal footing, even overlooking the Central Command..


In Second Skin, Obsidian Order agent Entek is interrogating Kira, when her false father, Ghemor comes in and tells him to stop.

Entek tells him that it's Obsidian Order business and started to say something about their autonomy when Ghemor cuts him off ...


Ghemor tells him that the autonomy "is a privilege granted by the Central Command and is revokable at any time. Don't you agree?"

Entek starts to say something, then backs down.

If this is true, then the Obsidian Order gets its authority from Central Command itself.

Central Command controls the Obsidian Order?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Hey, it's popular nit, lol... the debate will continue I'm sure...

I have another Nitpick involving the difference between the Obsidian Order and Central Command-who's in charge?

In "The Defiant", Dukat says that both organizations were supposed to answer to the Detapa Counsel, but in reality they run their own affairs.

Central Command even had an observer from the Obsidian Order there, who was seeming to call some shots. She warned them not to go into a system that 'belongs to the Obsidian Order'..

They seem to be on equal footing, even overlooking the Central Command..


In Second Skin, Obsidian Order agent Entek is interrogating Kira, when her false father, Ghemor comes in and tells him to stop.

Entek tells him that it's Obsidian Order business and started to say something about their autonomy when Ghemor cuts him off ...


Ghemor tells him that the autonomy "is a privilege granted by the Central Command and is revokable at any time. Don't you agree?"

Entek starts to say something, then backs down.

If this is true, then the Obsidian Order gets its authority from Central Command itself.

Central Command controls the Obsidian Order?

Cardassian politics is...complicated. For one thing, family connections and other personal details give each individual more or less status than their position alone might suggest. The influence the Order and Central Command have over one another, and the details of their delicate power balance, are probably constantly shifting. Every Cardassian no doubt has half a dozen means of exerting influence over his or her rivals, and simply waits for the best time to use them. Perhaps Ghemor was saying "since Tain left not too long ago and the Order has a new leader, things aren't quite settled yet. If enough members of the CC (among whom I have high status) make a fuss or call in their favours or set in motion their long-term plans RIGHT NOW...well, maybe the Order might have to...give way somewhat?" Maybe calling the Order's autonomy a "privilege" is simply a threat, not an actual legal reality. The "don't you agree?" comment makes it seem more like a negotiation than a statement of fact.

The Central Command and Obsidian Order are technically under loyalty to the Detapa Council, and its laws, but while the Council and the Civilian Assemblies maintain control over the budget/funding and such, and so can still exert some influence, Central Command and the Order have gained so much power they more or less do their own thing, as you say. Given the Cardassian respect for law, I doubt the CC or Order would ever consider actually getting rid of the council, even though they in practice grew more powerful than it and really work outside of its oversight much of the time. The Council is largely toothless, a body that mostly just serves as a balance between the Order and the Command, running the day-to-day business of finance, etc, without really exerting any true power. Central Command is more or less in charge in practice, while the Order, as the intelligence service/secret police has the power to investigate Central Command (it was established on DS9 CC officers are not immune to Order inquiries). Even if Central Command does have authority over the Order, the Order can hold its own by virtue of having eyes everywhere and authority- indeed, a mandate I imagine- to monitor the military. We know high ranking Command officers like Ghemor can turn off the monitors without fear of reprisal, but of course that doesn't mean the Order isn't unofficially still monitoring...The Command and the Order don't trust one another, it's as simple as that. The Order can send overseers to Command projects, as you say, supposedly to protect their interests and keep the projects safe but also in practice to try and sabotage anything they don't like. They are not permitted military equipment, but that didn't stop them...

Until Dukat, I don't think Cardassia ever had a single leader, it's far more complex than "this person or agency has clear authority over this one". As mentioned, technically the Detapa Council is in charge but were a member of the Civilian Assembly to stand up alone and try to demand the Order or Command stand aside, no doubt he or she would very soon discover a previously unknown allergy to something in his/her drink and sadly expire...

 

[Nightdiamond]

Good points, good arguments...

Rebuttal:

However, Ghemor said that this atonomy is "revokable at any time". By Central Command itself.

That sounds almost like direct control. If Central Command can revoke the Obsidian Order's atonomy, and at any time they wish, it seems to suggest that the Obsidian Order is dependant upon C.C.

In fact in both The Next Generation and DS9, it is established that the Cardassian government is controled by the military, which is Central Command.

Schools, sciences etc, are controlled by the military. Even the leaders are military officers.

Dukat, Damar, Brocas, all Legates, and Guls.

I know Cardassian politics are definetly complicated- The Obsidian Order simply built their own fleet and took matters knto their own hands- yet it was C.C that survived into the Dominion absorption, and even ordered Dominion ships around to some point...



In "Indiscretion", something about how Dukat reacts to his daughter always seemed awkward.

It seems for all those years Dukat had a teenaged daughter, and that she was so connected with him she prayed that he would come.

It seemed for years since the show started, it would be about 5 years or even longer, that Dukat had no contact with her and was either on Cardassia or leading the military.

There seemed to be no contact, no connections bewtween them, yet they act as if they were very close and had a close relationship.

And then he planned to KILL her??? When did they ever have a relationship in the first place?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Nightdiamond--

I think what you're encountering there is the difference between what may be "on the books" as far as Cardassian law is concerned, and what actually happens in practice.

The way the actual power structure is--what actually happens in practice, you have Central Command and the Obsidian Order as near-equal powers, and which one has the upper hand depends on who happens to control the most vital resources and information at any given time, or on any given subject, and who wields the most personal influence, as Deranged Nasat pointed out.

The Detapa Council wields little power, though on a few occasions, it may be that some influential members have managed to check Central Command's or the Obsidian Order's actions. The withdrawal from Bajor MIGHT have been such an instance. (There is no canon proof that Kotan Pa'Dar was a member of the Detapa Council--but it is a possibility some have raised.) Most of the time, though, the Detapa Council seems to do very little other than rubber-stamp Central Command and the Obsidian Order have already done, because they are very much at the mercy of these two much stronger governmental bodies.

However, there have been strong suggestions that the Cardassian governmental structure on paper are an entirely different thing: that instead, Central Command is supposed to answer to the civilian Detapa Council. And it may also be that on paper, the Obsidian Order is supposed to answer to Central Command. This, however, is not what happens.

As to the control of the military: I would say their control is of a very, very outward sort. So yes, they control all of the institutions you mention. However, the Obsidian Order has grown so powerful that they are capable of directly taking on Central Command by what I believe are two means: firewalling itself from Central Command systems so that they can maintain information and resources separately, and making sure that servants of Central Command live in fear, because they are always being monitored by the Order and can be taken out at any time.

Central Command is a near power monopoly...the Obsidian Order, however, is a near information monopoly. That makes them two powers that are nearly equal to each other, depending on the circumstances at hand.

As for the downfall of the Obsidian Order--simple. They overestimated the degree of their dominance, thought they could play at games of naked force as well as espionage, overreached themselves, and were destroyed for it, which left Central Command--which had NOT played this power game (and I wonder, perhaps had some sort of warning from someone to stay out of it?) and thus their forces were intact.

Now, this is my PERSONAL theory here, but I believe that over the 500-year existence of the Union, there has been a major shift--that things started out according to what was on the books, and then shifted into the power structure that we now see in place.

 

[Captrek]

As for the downfall of the Obsidian Order--simple. They overestimated the degree of their dominance, thought they could play at games of naked force as well as espionage, overreached themselves, and were destroyed for it, which left Central Command--which had NOT played this power game (and I wonder, perhaps had some sort of warning from someone to stay out of it?) and thus their forces were intact.

The warning may have gone in the other direction. Somebody in CC may have found out about the OO’s plan, decided he’d rather be rid of the OO than the Dominion, approached the Founders and conspired with them to ambush and destroy the OO. Continuing in this line, it may be that CC’s role in ambushing the OO was discovered, was seen as a betrayal of Cardassia, and prompted the coup that overthrew CC.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not sure...I think we would've heard something about that, if that was the case.

I was thinking more in terms of a double agent, perhaps a soldier recruited by the Obsidian Order to spy, who was successfully turned by Central Command and used for counterespionage. (Not unlike what Sisko wanted Bashir to become for him, when it came to Section 31.)

 

[Nightdiamond]

One idea I do like is that C.C has military dominance, and the O.O has information dominance..

One thing we know, is that the Detapa has little power, only on paper, while the Central Command and Obsidian Order run their own affairs.

Actually there is a lot of fanfic info on this structure that is interesting.


Still, with this nit is that if Central Command controls the basic institutions, and the Federation acknowledges that it is a military government (Picard is qouted as saying, "since the military took over...."), then trek canon is suggesting that the military controls the government, and that Central Command might have even existed before the Order did.

Checks and balances, with the Obsidian Order's role to do a LOT of balancing, considering their governemnt is run by the military.

Can we blame them?

However, to be on equal footing, the Order's atonomy would be independent of C.C , and according to "Second Skin", it was given to them by Central Command!

I thought what Ghemor said was interesting, I liked the showdown..but this piece also added an extra bit of information too..up until then, it seemed that the Obsidian Order was a powerful, ambitious, and independent organization competing with C.C.

Now, its very atonomy was actually granted by Central Command?

Is it possible that the Obsidian Order was originally a part of Central Command? All fleets and organizations in Central Command are called "Orders".

Is it possible that the Obsidian Order was originally the intelligence branch of the military, and then broke off--with permission, and grew more powerful as a result?

 

[Anticitizen]

One nit I have to pick is the always-varying distance of the station from Bajor. In the first episode, they moved the whole station over to the wormhole in a matter of minutes using maneuvering thrusters. Later on, they keep reporting varying transit times - sometimes it's 3 hours by runabout, sometimes 5.

In that episode where the refugee race immigrates from the Gamma Quadrant - I can't remember the title - two youngish boys from the alien race fly off in an attempt to land on Bajor. It took them a whole minute or so to get to Bajor from the station. If it took 3-5 hours, they could have been easily stopped in time! So which is it?

Then, Sisko builds his solar sail ship to prove the Bajorans could've sailed out to the Denoris Belt (or whatever it's called) in pre-warp times... but he starts out his slow journey from the station, which is supposedly hours away by starship! Which means he proves nothing, really.

It seems that sometimes DS9 is far away from Bajor, and other times it's practically still in orbit.

 

[Nightdiamond]

One nit I have to pick is the always-varying distance of the station from Bajor. In the first episode, they moved the whole station over to the wormhole in a matter of minutes using maneuvering thrusters. Later on, they keep reporting varying transit times - sometimes it's 3 hours by runabout, sometimes 5.

In that episode where the refugee race immigrates from the Gamma Quadrant - I can't remember the title - two youngish boys from the alien race fly off in an attempt to land on Bajor. It took them a whole minute or so to get to Bajor from the station. If it took 3-5 hours, they could have been easily stopped in time! So which is it?

Then, Sisko builds his solar sail ship to prove the Bajorans could've sailed out to the Denoris Belt (or whatever it's called) in pre-warp times... but he starts out his slow journey from the station, which is supposedly hours away by starship! Which means he proves nothing, really.

It seems that sometimes DS9 is far away from Bajor, and other times it's practically still in orbit.

I noticed that one too. The station could still see the sail ship if it wanted to, because they could see the wormhole itself open and close from the windows.

And when we see scenes of the Defiant leaving the station for the wormhole to go into the Gamma Quadrant, it takes just a few seconds!

Using slower manuevering thrusters for a station that big, and reaching the wormhole in minutes, is an unavoidable Nit if we can establish other times when it took more faster ships hours to reach it.

If you're saying that it also a few hours from station to wormhole, that's a serious nit!

Rememeber how the Defiant rushed to the wormhole in Sacrifice of Angels?

"Explorers" states that it would have took the sailship about 4 or five days to reach the Denorias Belt from the statiopn (where the wormhole is situated).

Sisko only had minutes to keep the Dominion ships from coming out of the wormhole.

If it would take hours to go from station to wormhole, the Dominion ships would have come out of the wormhole long before the Defiant met them.



And, in some episodes, you can actually see the ships as they enter or come out of the wormhole from a window, which should mean the station is very close to the wormhole-close enough to actually see ships with the naked eye...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

One nit I have to pick is the always-varying distance of the station from Bajor. In the first episode, they moved the whole station over to the wormhole in a matter of minutes using maneuvering thrusters. Later on, they keep reporting varying transit times - sometimes it's 3 hours by runabout, sometimes 5.

In that episode where the refugee race immigrates from the Gamma Quadrant - I can't remember the title - two youngish boys from the alien race fly off in an attempt to land on Bajor. It took them a whole minute or so to get to Bajor from the station. If it took 3-5 hours, they could have been easily stopped in time! So which is it?

Then, Sisko builds his solar sail ship to prove the Bajorans could've sailed out to the Denoris Belt (or whatever it's called) in pre-warp times... but he starts out his slow journey from the station, which is supposedly hours away by starship! Which means he proves nothing, really.

It seems that sometimes DS9 is far away from Bajor, and other times it's practically still in orbit.

That part may actually make sense, the varying distance, if the Bajoran Wormhole is not orbiting B'hava'el, but the planet is. This would mean that the station is at a relatively fixed point in space, but the planet is moving as it travels in its orbit. This would mean impulse travel times would vary noticeably as the planet moves closer and further away.

Regarding the Obsidian Order--I think what you're looking at is essentially what would have happened if the Federation's Section 31 got big enough and powerful enough to come out into the open. They may well indeed have been an Order of Central Command at one time, granted authority to act in the interests of Cardassia without going through the official chain of command in emergencies. And then, of course, once the Order got powerful enough, they looked at things CC was doing that they didn't like, and declared a permanent emergency (the permanent threat of treason, perhaps). And from there, they were off.

 

[Thor Damar]

^ That's certainly an interesting premise. After all, there are always traitors to the state/people in our midst, even if you have to look very hard in all the dark corners or the pinnacles of power.

Thus is the 'secret' arm of the state born...

There is a lot of interesting concepts that have been alluded to with regards to the structure of the Union. Unfortunately I don't have time now but I hope to post my own analysis fairly shortly.

(I'm really surprised that I stayed away from a thread about the Cardassians for so long!)

 

[Nightdiamond]

It's not canon, but Central Command has fleets called "Orders", 1st Order, 3rd Order and so on...

-The Obsidian Order is also called an Order-
- Central Command is said to run the government-
-Ghemor says that the O.O's atonomy was granted by the C.C-
- It's possible the O.O was originally a branch of the Central Command-

It broke off, with permission from C.C, and grew powerful ..

Still the Nit-how does the Detapa Council come into this?

This is actually another new Nit, because if in Second Skin, Ghemor says the O.O's atonomy comes from C.C, and in "The Defiant", Dukat says they both answer to the Detapa council in theory, but run their own affairs-

Then that contradicts each other.


I also noticed the 'competition between the two, with one appearing to be weaker than the other at times.

Garak manages to have Dukat's father executed.

Dukat or Enabrin ???? gets Garak exiled, and in one episode, says "I should've had you executed years ago"

Enabrin Tain was said to be more powerful than Central Comand.


Confusing, possibly contradicting power balance...

 

[Thor Damar]

It's not canon, but Central Command has fleets called "Orders", 1st Order, 3rd Order and so on...

-The Obsidian Order is also called an Order-
- Central Command is said to run the government-
-Ghemor says that the O.O's atonomy was granted by the C.C-
- It's possible the O.O was originally a branch of the Central Command-

It broke off, with permission from C.C, and grew powerful ..

Still the Nit-how does the Detapa Council come into this?

This is actually another new Nit, because if in Second Skin, Ghemor says the O.O's atonomy comes from C.C, and in "The Defiant", Dukat says they both answer to the Detapa council in theory, but run their own affairs-

Then that contradicts each other.


I also noticed the 'competition between the two, with one appearing to be weaker than the other at times.

Garak manages to have Dukat's father executed.

Dukat or Enabrin ???? gets Garak exiled, and in one episode, says "I should've had you executed years ago"

Enabrin Tain was said to be more powerful than Central Comand.


Confusing, possibly contradicting power balance...

Actually the military of the Cardassian Union has been divided into twelve orders and has been referenced during the run of DS9, so it is canon.

As Neryrs Ghemor and Deranged Nasat have already stated, the sovereignty and rights of the Central Command and the Obsidian Order are guaranteed by the Detapa Council. (or at least that is the official Political line).

It seems that the CC, which grew in power during the sever economic and environmental crisis that plagued the Union, allowed the OO more aomony in exchange for maintaining internal order (pun definitely intended) during the many wars of conquest.
This then became the accepted system and over the next few centuries the OO grew in power to such any extent that it almost outstripped the CC itself.
As a result the OO was denied use of any military vessels or facilities thus removing any direct threat to the CC's hegemony (until 2371)

In fact if Tain had been able to pull of his harebrained act of genocide and survive the GQ, we could have seen not a civilian revolution but a OO coup

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Nightdiamond--why do you still insist that this is somehow an inaccuracy or contradiction, as though the writers screwed up? As I think we've demonstrated, all of this is perfectly explainable by the simple premise that things started out one way, and ended up another. The Detapa Council may once have been powerful...but just like a figurehead monarch in a country like England, a position that once wielded a lot of influence no longer really does, and is basically there for show. I mean, I may not be English, but the way I understand it is, you may sing "God Save the Queen," but it's Parliament where the actual power lies.

Same deal with Cardassia. The contradiction is intentional by the writers. NOT a screwup.