Please convince me to re-watch DS9!

[Yeoman Randi]

OK, heres the deal. I own all of DS9, because i owned all the other series on DVD and i figured one day i'd want to see DS9 again....so i bought it. But i didnt love it the first time around and it has been YEARS since i saw it when it originally aired.

So last night i decided i was going to pop in the DVDs from the beginning and give it another try.

And after watching The Emissary i remembered why i didnt like the show. Sisko's delivery. Kira's bitchiness (yes, i know, she has been living under the Cardis etc), blah blah blah.

Yes, i know there are some awesome episodes. But the way i remember it, there were more BAD than good.

i need to hear WHY you all love it so much. Why you recommend it. Can you guys convince me that it is worth my time to watch it again?? Please?

 

[Navaros]

There are certainly way more bad than good episodes in the first two Seasons specifically. However, once you get to Season 3 or 4, then the vast majority of the episodes are good or great. Albeit there are still 5 or 6 duds per season, but 5 of 6 bad ones and 20 good/great ones is still a very good ratio.

Kira's bitchiness is definitely extremely annoying, but it gets toned-down considerably by the end of Season 1.

Sisko performs the role better in later episodes than he does in Emissary. He does have the occasional hammy delivery, but for the most part he's very good on the whole.

Why I love DS9: amazing actors, amazing characters, compelling dialogues, and fascinating ideas.

DS9 is the only Trek show with story-development and character development.

Personally I don't care one iota about Bajorans or wormhole aliens yet I still love DS9 because I mostly ignore those aspects of it that don't interest me and instead focus on the great parts of it that do, ie: Dukat, Weyoun, The Dominion, Garak, Quark, Nog, Kai Winn etc. etc. The boring Bajoran stuff is mostly abstracted after Season 2 and replaced with much better things like the Dominion.

I suggest that you might want to take Photon's suggestion that he has made on this board before: skip right to the Season 2 finale, the episode called "The Jem'Hadar". As Photon says: DS9 doesn't start cookin' until then.

There are a handful of great episodes before then, but you have to wade through a lot of bad & mediocre episodes to get to them. "The Jem'Hadar" is a turning point for when the series start to get good on a consistent basis.

"The Jem'Hadar", as an episode, is also a good microcosm of the greatness that is in DS9; watching that one episode could probably remind you why the whole series is worth your time to watch again.

 

[TheGodBen]

i need to hear WHY you all love it so much. Why you recommend it. Can you guys convince me that it is worth my time to watch it again?? Please?

You're an individual, the reasons why I love DS9 will not apply to you. I love the characters, the story, the setting, the writing style and the humour; if those things are not to your liking then you should probably sell your DS9 DVDs to somebody who loves the show.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I don't think Kira was bitchy. Kind of chippy maybe.

 

[Captrek]

I agree with Navaros. I am rewatching the series right now. So far I’ve gotten through to WOTW. Everybody’s favorite, The Visitor, is up next. I hope it’s as good as everybody says.

I’m having a great time rewatching the series. Yes, I endured some stinkers in S1 and the first half of S2, but I found most of them watchable. There were very few that made me complain about 50 minutes of my life that I’ll never get back. Starting late in S2, it starts to get better, and then just keeps getting better.

The highlights of S1 and early S2 are the four-episode arc starting with In the Hands of the Prophets, and Duet, which immediately precedes that arc. Then late S2 and most of S3 are compelling TV, and I believe the best is yet to come.

Check out geos.tv’s episode ratings for the series. For the most part I have found myself agreeing with those ratings. (My biggest differences of opinion: I think that Blood Oath is overrated and Tribunal is underrated.)

According to the votes on geos, the 5th-best episode in S1 is the 131st-best episode (out of 174) overall. So all but four episodes are among the very worst the series has to offer. The other four are nothing special either, except for Duet; they rank #8, #42, #77, and #100.

The average rating for each season increases every season, except for a statistically insignificant drop from S5 (8.158/10) to S6 (8.152). So sticking with it will be rewarded.

I suppose I should mention that I did watch the series during its initial run from 1993-1999, and it has mostly faded from my memory. If you wish, you can take that as a sign that it’s not particularly memorable, but I think it has more to do with me just having a lousy memory. I’m glad to have forgotten, because it’s like I get to watch it for the first time again.

 

[DevilEyes]

Kira seems one of the most divisive characters in Trek, people either adore her or can't stand her. I don't remember ever finding Kira bitchy, not in a negative or annoying sense anyway. She was, indeed, angrier at the beginning (and she had lots of good reasons to be) You could as well say that Sisko was bitchy in the first part of "Emissary", esp. to Picard, although he had reasons - but Kira's reasons were pretty damn good, too, and actually better, since Picard was a victim of the Borg, while the Federation were just a mighty 'peacemaking' force who did nothing to help the Bajorans, so from Kira's POV, why should she care for it? However, she undergoes a lot of development throughout the series, even in season 1, and gets to broaden her views and change her attitudes to the Federation and even to the Cardassians. I never understood why some people call her 'constantly angry' (maybe they confused her with B'Elanna), apart from the very beginning, she is just determined and opinionated, and angry when she has a good reason to be, but she is also friendly and caring, not just to her friends on the station like Odo or Jadzia, but even to people you wouldn't expect her to have understanding for. I always found her interactions with various Cardassian characters especially interesting, and they made for some of the most moving episodes (like the wonderful "Duet" near the end of season 1, which was the episode that really made me fall in love with the show).

I think she was one of the few characters I liked right from the start (Odo, Garak...). It certainly took me a while for Jadzia to grow on me, and it took several seasons for me to start caring for Bashir and Jake, but in the end I liked all of them. Sisko was one of those I was unsure about at first - I didn't like some of Avery Brooks' delivery (the only actor whose acting I disliked more in the pilot was Siddig), but he got much better later on when his settled into his role, and his change in appearance (see the thread about his hair ) made quite a difference as well. Somehow he became a much more imposing, charismatic and interesting figure.

It's true that season 1 is very weak, there are only a few great episodes, and too many lame standalones, but it picks up at the very end. It seems like the show was sort of still finding its own ground. Season 2 is better, but still has some lame episodes, although I don't agree that they outnumber the good ones. Then again, while I was put off by some of the Ferengi episodes, lame Dax and Bashir stories like "Dax" or "Melora" and standalones that seemed like stuff that was already done in TOS and TNG, I can't sympathize with anyone who was bored with stories about Bajoran/Cardassian relations and the internal political problems in those countries, since I was always found them very compelling. I already found the show very good, the Dominion storyline only elevated it to another level and made it awesome.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

DEVILEYES and NAVAROS--are there eps in Season 1 and Season 2 that you would suggest i watch before i go to "The Jem'Hadar"?

I know i felt the same way with TNG...the first couple of seasons had lots of dogs with few gems,..but in my opinion they really started to hit their mark with season 4.

 

[Navaros]

IMO the great episodes of Season 1 are Captive Pursuit which IMO is hands-down the best SciFi story that DS9 has ever done in the whole series (DS9 is mostly about inter-relations of people and societies rather than telling SciFi stories), and In the Hands of the Prophets, which is the first appearance of Oscar-winner Louise Fletcher who played her Winn role brilliantly in that episode, and also throughout the whole series. I found Vortex to be a good episode in Season 1 due to the strong acting of Odo and the guest actor, but I wouldn't call it remarkable on a story-level.

I would definitely recommend Necessary Evil from Season 2 which is a masterpiece of an Odo episode, and The Wire which is a masterpiece of a Garak episode. Those episodes showcase what DS9 can do at it's very best, and there are a ton more of episodes at that level of high-watermark quality in Seasons 3 - 7.

I would also recommend Shadowplay in Season 2 but again not because it is great on a story-level, but rather for the Odo actor's amazing performance in it that gives you a sense of how brilliantly-played and nuanced he is; along with a likewise amazing acting performance of the Taya girl.

 

[Captrek]

Personally, I don’t recommend skipping episodes. I think the character relationships develop more naturally when paced as originally intended. It’s not like TNG, where you can skip a majority of the episodes and not miss much.

Or like VOY or ENT, where you can skip the entire series and not miss much.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

^ THANK YOU Navaros! I'll watch the ones you've suggested rather than just skip to The Jem'Hadar.

If i am remembering correctly, is Captive Pursuit the one with the aliens who are chasing that one for 'sport'? If i am remembering it correctly, that one WAS EXCELLENT! Thank you for reminding me!

 

[Yeoman Randi]

Personally, I don’t recommend skipping episodes. I think the character relationships develop more naturally when paced as originally intended. It’s not like TNG, where you can skip a majority of the episodes and not miss much.

Generally, that is how i feel...you get to see relationships and characters develop....but when you are talking TNG for example, there are real DOGS that can (and should be, imho) skipped (like Code of Honor). And i'd like to skip any dogs in DS9 if possible.

 

[Captrek]

but when you are talking TNG for example, there are real DOGS that can (and should be, imho) skipped (like Code of Honor). And i'd like to skip any dogs in DS9 if possible.

I agree completely when it comes to TNG. I rewatched TNG before I started my DS9 rewatch, and my TNG rewatch included just 55 episodes (out of 176).

I’m taking a different approach with DS9, and as I near the halfway point of the series, I’m glad I chose that approach, despite the stinkers in S1 and most of S2.

 

[DevilEyes]

It depends on how many episodes you want to watch from those seasons. I am not keen on most of season 1 episodes with a few exceptions, but some of them are important for the development of characters. "Past Prologue", the episode that immediately follows "The Emissary", immediately starts the development of Kira's character by introducing a character from her past as a terrorist/resistance fighter and forcing her to make decisions about where her loyalties lie; also, Garak is introduced (extremely interesting character, who is many people's favourite DS9 character). "A Man Alone" and "Vortex" introduce a lot you need to know about Odo and his unique position as a Changeling who has never met any other member of his race. "Captive Pursuit" is a standalone but an excellent one.

The best episodes, that absolutely should not be missed, are "Duet" - one of the best episodes of DS9 and the one that made me fall in love with the show, a really strong and moving story with several twists, with a great performance by guest star Harris Yulin as a Cardassian who might or might not be an infamous genocidal war criminal; and the season1 finale, "In The Hands Of the Prophets", which introduces Louise Fletcher as Bajoran religious leader Winn, who is one of the show's great villains.

I actually liked at least half of season 2 episodes, so I'd almost find it easier to list which one you should skip.
The ones I think you need to see, either for the important plot points or because they are simply very good:
The Circle trilogy - "The Homecoming", "The Circle", "The Siege" - show's first three-parter, shows the series dealing with more seralized plots involving Bajoran politics; Winn continues to play a big role.
"Cardassians" - very good episode, and it develops Cardassians further (well, obviously )
"Necessary Evil" - excellent Odo/Kira episode about Kira's dark past during the Occupation
"Whispers" - an unusual and excellent O'Brien-centric standalone episode, a bit like a psychological thriller with a real twist.
"Profit and Loss" - I'm not completely sold on Quark's story in this episode, but it brings even more complexity to Cardassian society, and has some great Garak moments
"The Maquis I/II" - good two-parter, and Maquis and Sisko's attitude to them will constitute an important storyarc in later seasons; also, this is where Dukat gets more interesting and ambiguous as a character, rather than just being the constant antagonist
"The Wire" - great episode about Garak and his mysterious past that keeps you guessing
"Crossover" - the first (and best) of the DS9 Mirror universe episodes
"The Collaborator" - an important development related to Bajor and Winn
"The Tribunal" - I just really liked this one. It really shows the scary side of the Cardassian authoritatian state and judicial system.

also, you may love or hate "Blood Oath" - it all depends on whether you like the Klingons; if you do, you'll probably love this episode, which brings back the (retconned versions of) the three most prominent Klingon characters/actors from TOS (Kor, Koloth and Kang). I don't really like it much, but I don't really like Klingons much in general.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

OK.
We just finished A Man Apart which was the one that immediately followed Emissary. I think this one could have been skipped. I didnt really care about Kaiko opening a school and unfortunately i cared even less about Odo being harassed for a crime he didnt commit (i dont care enough about him yet)...the one we are about to put on now is "Past Prologue" (watching in order)....i do remember a little bit about this one..at least Tahna Los anyway. Will LYK what i think.

i REALLY appreciate your comments folks. Especially the recommendations!
I will definitely watch the ones you suggest DEVILEYES!

To be continued.....

 

[TheGodBen]

I didnt really care about Kaiko opening a school...

I think this says a lot about season 1 of DS9; the episodes themselves weren't great and could sometimes be utterly rubbish, but they set the seeds for the great things which would happen later. For example, Keiko opening a school isn't all that interesting in A Man Alone, but seeing her setting up the school makes the plot of In the Hands of the Prophets more powerful. The school also helped to cement the friendship between Jake and Nog and I would say that Nog's character development is one of the pleasant surprises of DS9.

That's the problem with the first season, the episodes aren't great but it is best to watch them anyway because they are the foundation of the brilliance which comes afterwards.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

OK, heres the deal. I own all of DS9, because i owned all the other series on DVD and i figured one day i'd want to see DS9 again....so i bought it.

Let me get this straight: you own all of the Star Trek series on dvd and you need help convincing you to watch one of the best of all of them?

Personally, I would only skip 4 episodes of the entire series:
S1-"Move Along Home"
S2-"Rivals"
S3-"Meridian"
"Distant Voices"
I would probably watch them all anyway. Even if the story sucks there is usually foreshadowing and good character moments.

Edit.... Actually 5 episodes. I forgot the awful episode "The Muse".

 

[Geckothan]

Don't skip any of them, not even the really awful ones. They just make you enjoy the good ones even more.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

Ok so we had a DS9 mini marathon last night. We watched Past Prologue and if not for the Klingon sisters and their Klingon Kleavage (they kill me those two) and the introduction of Garak i could have lived without this one as well.

I dont understand, people are always imitating and poking fun at Shatner...and..his ...delivery....

but Avery Brooks is just as bad, if not worse (MHO).

But Andrew Robinson as Garak! OMG the man is a genius. He is amazing as Garak. So, i lived through this episode.

Then we watched Captive Pursuit, which as i remembered WAS about Tosk and his species used for the game. THAT was GREAT sci fi in my opinion, and what always drew me to Star Trek from day 1--- the characters, the cultures, the relationships. i LOVED this episode!

GARY MITCHELL: i would love to hear why you think DS9 was one of the best of all the series.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

OH...can someone fill me in on the Cardassian/Bajoran back story? As i am understanding it, Bajor was occupied by the Cardies for (60?) years. And DS9 was a mining post? Did i understand that correctly from the couple of eps i've watched.

And the Chief mentions fighting against the Cardassians. I dont remember there being a Cardassian - Federation war ever mentioned TNG.

So why did the Cardassians give up DS9? And why was ODO working there as security chief? One would think the Cardassians would have one of their own as security chief.

 

[DevilEyes]

OH...can someone fill me in on the Cardassian/Bajoran back story? As i am understanding it, Bajor was occupied by the Cardies for (60?) years. And DS9 was a mining post? Did i understand that correctly from the couple of eps i've watched.

And the Chief mentions fighting against the Cardassians. I dont remember there being a Cardassian - Federation war ever mentioned TNG.

So why did the Cardassians give up DS9? And why was ODO working there as security chief? One would think the Cardassians would have one of their own as security chief.

There had been a Federation-Cardassian war, though never seen on screen and it was referenced a lot in the excellent TNG season 4 episode "The Wounded", which introduced Cardassians (although with a somewhat different makeup and uniforms). The war had been over by that time and the Federation had an uneasy peace accord with the Cardassians. The episode showed that the peace was very fragile and focused on the people in the Starfleet who could still not let go of the distrust and hatred for the Cardassians (Captain Maxwell, played by guest star Bob Gunton, but also to a smaller extent, Miles O'Brien). The episode is like a proto-DS9, since it not only focuses on Cardassians, but O'Brien plays a big role - and the Cardassian Gul in the episode is played by Marc Alaimo, who would later play Gul Dukat on DS9.

Cardassian occupation of Bajor and Bajoran resistance were also the subject of season 5 episode "Ensign Ro". That episode was set during the occupation, it introduces Bajorans, their refugees and resistance movement.

Cardassians were also the focus of the great TNG season 6 two-parter "Chain of Command", which features Cardassians as the main antagonists of the Federation, and shows that a new war could have broken out any moment. That's the episode in which Picard got captured and tortured by the Cardassians (with David Warner guest starring as the Cardassian Gul who tortured him). It also contains some explanation (from Warner's character) about Cardassian history and how they became a military dictatorship.

Yes, the occupation of Bajor lasted for about 60 years. Deep Space Nine, or "Terok Nor" (Cardassian name), was originally a mining and refinery station, and Bajorans were used as slaves to work in mines in very difficult conditions. Odo often used to settle disputes on the station because he was seen by both sides as an impartial outsider, and he was first recruied by Gul Dukat to solve a murder on the station. He continued to work in similar capacity and eventually became Chief of Security. But you should watch season 2 episode "Necessary Evil" for this backstory.

As for season 1, as me and a few other people have said, it was very weak by DS9's standards. I recommended episodes like "Past Prologue", "A Man Alone" and "Vortex" because they set up the characters and things that will be important later. The only great episodes in season 1 are "Captive Pursuit", "Duet" and "In The Hands Of The Prophets". I don't even remember most of the other ones that well. You really shouldn't judge the qualoity of the show based on season 1.

Many of the actors hadn't really settled into their roles early on - when I rewatched DS9 last year, I was shocked while watching "Emissary" to see how much bad acting there was. If you look at a few other threads in this forum, you'll see that Avery Brooks' acting ability is a subject of controversy. There are many people who thought he overacted terribly on many occasions. But, I have to say that IMO, Shatner was rather good in season 1 of TOS and then got much worse later, esp. in season 3; Brooks was bad early on, but got much better once he settled into his role. Even the actors whose acting really bugged me early on (Siddig in particular, I thought he was awful in the pilot) get better during the show.