• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Pentagon tests: F-22 has maintenance shortcomings

Why not simply stop using planes all together? That whole war thing is quite unproductive anyway. Better to pour that money into better education and welfare. :D

This will never happen. Also, war can be quite productive when the goal is protecting Freedom or liberating the oppressed.

Not if there are no opressed to be liberated nor threats to freedom. But of course it'll never happen. One can still dream, though. ;)

So, Saddam, al-Qadea and the Taliban are actually nice to people? :shifty:
 
comes with optional "highway to the danger zone" tape

yes I know it wasn't the plane in movie:p

Yes it was.

Jetscream is an F-22 (in the movie- unsure about before then), Megatron is WTF he is, and I didn't notice any F-14 transformers ever.

The leader of the G-Bots was an F-15, the only F-14 in Si-Fi I can think of is the Valkyrie or the Javlin (from spubspace->continum).
Are you completely forgetting all the F-14 footage with that song in the background during Top Gun!?
 
just as a matter of interest I found the following thread on airliners.net which gives from mh/fh figures/

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/103605/

F-117...........- 150 (pre 1989)
F-117...........- 45 (after improvements, post 1989)

I wonder if there is anything we can estimate about the F-22's maintenance issues from their experience with the F-117. Could we also expect a dramatic drop from 30:1 to something more reasonable like a figure half to 2/3rds of that?

Were the F-117's problems predominantly avionics or materials related like the F-22?
 
So why exactly do we need to build a fighter designed to take down now non-existent Soviet superfighters that were never built to begin with? This thing was planned, designed, and approved in the 1980s.

For some reason it also had a lot of problems with its electronics from what I've been hearing, which includes standard city electronic transmissions JAMMING ITS SYSTEMS. That's unbelievable.

Apparently, the manufacturers have been using horribly substandard materials to build these things, because they are breaking down much much faster than they should. Below is a link to a Washington Post article about the myriad of problems affecting the Raptor since it has started actually flying. It's unfathomable. What's worse is that we DON'T EVEN NEED IT.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...03020_3.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2009071001019
 
Seriously, 30 MMH per FH is LOW..B-52s require much more..estimates that I saw during my time in SAC were over 200 MMH per FH...and the Century series fighters (F-100 to F-106)were much much higher at their service entry..F-14s were hanger queens with about 50 to 60 MMH per FH in the early 90s..and that was one of the reasons for retirement..the MMH per FH ratio was getting WORSE not better..the lowest I knew of in service was the A-10 due to a distinct lack of complex avionics systems on board..at 12MMH per FH. The F-18 figures you see in that article were a boldfaced lie..they were higher than the F-16s not lower..

The F117 issues had to do with the old "Off The Shelf" avionics systems used..and the early RAM coatings used..all of which were taken care of in the updates..

The F-22 will not get much lower as that actually is a decent number..

So why exactly do we need to build a fighter designed to take down now non-existent Soviet superfighters that were never built to begin with? This thing was planned, designed, and approved in the 1980s.
Sorry about the "non-existent Soviet superfighters" but they do exist in the Russian inventory and they are willing to sell them to anyone..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-35

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-35BM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-37

Now the current buy of F-22s (capped at about 100 or so) is sufficient for air supremacy over just about any battlezone..and if required, we can crank up the production up to 10 years after stop of production..(see the B-1B program for an example) and the increased F-35 production will make up for a lot..

The teething problems you saw in the article will be easy to take care of..every aircraft ever fielded since the Wright Flyer has had it's share of issues..and they are usually taken care of..
 
Something everyone should consider is that the F-22 is a newly deployed weapons system. Theres going to be issues and problems for years to come. If they have major issues in 10 years, then I'll be worried. If you want an example of another successful piece of weaponry that had a rocky start look no further than the M-16
 
If these things exist, why hasn't Russia sold them yet?

Plus, most military experts will agree that a large scale war is very very unlikely to happen again, due to how interconnected the world is today thanks to globalization.

The US seriously needs to cut at least 1/3 of defense funding, probably more. We spend FAR too much on defense relative to the rest of our budget, and half of the things we spend money on are never really used in combat, or aren't even built.
 
For some reason it also had a lot of problems with its electronics from what I've been hearing, which includes standard city electronic transmissions JAMMING ITS SYSTEMS. That's unbelievable

And scary. No wonder the SecDef recommended that the program be cut short.

Something everyone should consider is that the F-22 is a newly deployed weapons system. Theres going to be issues and problems for years to come. If they have major issues in 10 years, then I'll be worried. If you want an example of another successful piece of weaponry that had a rocky start look no further than the M-16

That's true. The current version of the M-16 design, the M-4 Carbine, gets rave reviews. I look forward to using them in BCT and later on the range to maintain my skills.
 
So the thing is multimillion dollar Defense budget sink hole? No surprises there.

So it's essentially the stealth coating doing that? Sounds like a lawsuit against Lockheed to me.

Still a beautiful plane, though.
Meh, the F-14s and the F-15s still have it in the looks dept. as far as I'm concerned. The F-14, especially, just screams "I'm here to fuck you up", IMO.

qft.


i love the turkey!

I spent many hours 'playing' inside of an F-14 while deployed. I didn't ever fly one, not a pilot. But several of my friends (playing poker can be such a friendship making game..try it) let me sit up there...

They all ended up flying F18s which they all hated in terms of looks...the F U UP feeling was very on target!

Rob
 
If these things exist, why hasn't Russia sold them yet?

They have..
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/su-30.htm

http://newsfromrussia.com/russia/economics/13-07-2009/108101-su30-0

and when potential enemies get such a capability, they often DO use them..and American lives are lost..as they are even today..

I remember when the last "No more future Wars will be fought" speech came out. it was 1989..and how many have been fought since then..

actually quite a few..Bosnia, Iraq, Afganistan, Somalia, Chezenia the list goes on..and will continue..

Futurists since the 1600s often have stated that War is obsolete..when the airplane was invented that very phrase was uttered, when missiles were developed, some governments stopped developing manned aircraft as "they were all obsolete" even tank development has been declared surplus and yet they are still useful on the modern battlefield.

as to major powers getting into wars, yes they do and sometimes against an enemy equipped with the latest in modern arms..
Vietnam comes to mind..as Russia did last year..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war

one must be prepared for every possible conflict..

end of story..
 
So the thing is multimillion dollar Defense budget sink hole? No surprises there.


Meh, the F-14s and the F-15s still have it in the looks dept. as far as I'm concerned. The F-14, especially, just screams "I'm here to fuck you up", IMO.

qft.


i love the turkey!

I spent many hours 'playing' inside of an F-14 while deployed. I didn't ever fly one, not a pilot. But several of my friends (playing poker can be such a friendship making game..try it) let me sit up there...

They all ended up flying F18s which they all hated in terms of looks...the F U UP feeling was very on target!

Rob

Wonder what they will think of the JSF then? (which I cant' say I find a particularly attractive looking aircraft)

But I guess by the time the F-35s enter service that most of the pilots who flew the Tomcats will have finshed their flying days except maybe for a few holding CAG slots?
 
qft.


i love the turkey!

I spent many hours 'playing' inside of an F-14 while deployed. I didn't ever fly one, not a pilot. But several of my friends (playing poker can be such a friendship making game..try it) let me sit up there...

They all ended up flying F18s which they all hated in terms of looks...the F U UP feeling was very on target!

Rob

Wonder what they will think of the JSF then? (which I cant' say I find a particularly attractive looking aircraft)

But I guess by the time the F-35s enter service that most of the pilots who flew the Tomcats will have finshed their flying days except maybe for a few holding CAG slots?

What I liked most about the F-14s? THEY were loud!!! Most of our dets ended with a special 'airshow' at sea. And to hear one of those things break the sound barrier just a few hundred feet above the flight deck was, well, incredible...

Rob
 
Well, given the prevailing subject matter that gave rise to this forum, Disillusion's aspiration for a world or an entire galaxy without war has it's appeal, so I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. And some of the wars mentioned above were begun to build up political egos and/or resumes (memos stand between Blair and Bush about sending U.S aircraft into the Iraqi No-Fly zone, with the stated intention that they be shot down to light off the invasion) not because they were meant to end genocide, tyranny, or any of the grander publicly-stated aims.

The laugh about the mission-capabilites necessitating the F-22's ability to combat the Sukhoi fighters is that the the original Sukhoi (T-10/Su-27) design was based on a North American fighter design that pre-dated the F-15 in its current form; the Russians were totally mystified when the NA design was abandoned to produce the F-15, until they realized the Pentagon/Air Force had panicked over the appearence of the MiG-25 Foxbat, which was wrongly assumed to be a miraculous super-fighter (the plot for the fictional 'Firefox' arose from this same mis-conception) and they desperately threw in for an aircraft which could foil Foxbats. So the newest fighters - F-22, F-35, Typhoon, Rafale' - were really developed to take on the likes of the Russian SU-35 fighter......a design which the U.S. could have fielded three decades ago.

Fast forward (or backward) to the early nineties, when the prototypes YF-22 and Northrop YF-23 were flown against one another for the contract; the F-22 got the nod despite foreknowledge it wasn't really going to work as promised by Lockheed (and the developed F-23 EMD might have been a superior design) needing an immense development effort to get ready for squadron deployment, let alone combat. All the problems mentioned in that article and a lot more elsewhere are less surprise than confirmation. Despite one congressman - with stock in one of the F-22 industrial vendors - getting more money for a few more fighters, Gates may have made the right decision to end the production-line. The money may not go into anything worthwhile like a really good space program, but the outlay going into building more F-22s should be used to - somehow - fix the ones we have already purchased, and then move on. The people who let this mess go on and on without fail should get the boot along the way.
 
Look...

I'm an engineer - many of you know that - and I worked on one of the major subsystems in the F-22. I'm actually pretty familiar with the capabilities of the design. (I did NOT work on the "stealth skin" laminate, by the way!)

I've seen some very interesting test results, which I won't go into in detail here (if you find them online, that's not my concern, of course) describing the results of "mock combat" engagements between F-22s and pretty much every other in-service aircraft.

The F-22 won every single engagement it ever took part in.

More recently, REAL engagements have proven much the same. The F-22 may be expensive, but it's also the aircraft most likely to come home from a combat engagement intact. To me, the cost-of-maintenance (most of which, granted, is due to poor engineering on the "stealth skin" which requires frequent skin-refurbishment) is less significant than the cost of replacing ships and pilots lost in combat engagements with superior craft.

The F-22 should, no question, be put on "standby" until a more robust skin design can be created, tested, and implemented. But that's not the same as "killing" the program. It's a design defect, but it's a SOLVABLE one. Probably at the cost of about 100 lbs or so total mass (assuming that they just apply a stealthy "paint" over the stealthy metal... solving the first problem AND improving stealth on top of that... but, no question, involving a cost in duration and maneuverability, as well as total-weapons-loadout.)
 
I'm worried we've entered a cycle like we have with bombers and manned spacecraft. We keep designing bleeding edge technology that fails and gets canceled followed by another bleeding edge design destined for the same fate (technical failure or hyper expensive limited production runs). This has already happened with the B-1, B-2, "Space Shuttle" Space Transportation system and X-33 proof of concept for the Venture Star spacecraft.
 
The laugh about the mission-capabilites necessitating the F-22's ability to combat the Sukhoi fighters is that the the original Sukhoi (T-10/Su-27) design was based on a North American fighter design that pre-dated the F-15 in its current form; the Russians were totally mystified when the NA design was abandoned to produce the F-15, until they realized the Pentagon/Air Force had panicked over the appearence of the MiG-25 Foxbat, which was wrongly assumed to be a miraculous super-fighter (the plot for the fictional 'Firefox' arose from this same mis-conception) and they desperately threw in for an aircraft which could foil Foxbats. So the newest fighters - F-22, F-35, Typhoon, Rafale' - were really developed to take on the likes of the Russian SU-35 fighter......a design which the U.S. could have fielded three decades ago.

Have to admit I thought the origin of the MiG-25 (going by stuff I read years ago) was to counter that B-70s with the Russians persisting after the Valkyrie program was scrapped.

I don't know if Craig Thomas ever envisaged a desgin for the MiG-31 Firefox wby while I liked the look of the one in the film I struck me as maybe a big too big for a fighter (interceptor yes - air to air dog fights nah)
 
Marc,

You're right about the origination of the Foxbat as a counter to the Valkyrie (there's a sad little tale in the B-1 book 'Wild Blue Yonder' about an Air Force officer in the Valkyrie program who attempted to have the B-70 redesigned for low-level penetration and was soundly smacked down by 'wiser' sorts a short time before the rigged fighter and missile interception of Gary Power's U-2). There is no hardware description of the Firefox in either of Thomas' books; matter of fact the original cover artwork is a painting of a stock Foxbat. The full-size prop used in the movie was an undersized 60' powered mockup; the original studio SFX model was a scale 63', but the converted flightworthy RC model used in the majority of the flying and Arctic ice-flow scenes was roughly 70' in length. In any event, all of those still fell within the rough physical dimensions of the F-15, MiG-25 and Su-27/35.

Goldbug, generally agree with you about the superior aircraft designs cancelled (except for the A-12 Flying Dorito, that was just a boondoggle from everything I've read). Most especially the F-107, which really outclassed the Thud - no lame monster itself - in every way, but fell afoul of the idiots who wanted to hang a tactical nuke from anything that flew. And a really big one missing from your list, the Canadian CF-105 Arrow.

Cary, I wasn't arguing that the F-22 can't mix it up with anything up there flying around, just that we're playing catch-up with a proven design that the Pentagon abandoned in a very real case of panicked short-sightedness. However (see above), they really need to fix what is WRONG with the damn Raptor design before going ahead with more buys, and just adding to the problems with the sheer quantity of mistakes.
 
Last edited:
*Smacks Head*

Damn it..knew I forgot something good..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_CF-105_Arrow


The A-12 was actually a good program "as initially contracted for" but the Navy added an air to air requirement a bit late in the program...and the capability was IN ADDITION to the high ordnance load as initially contracted..this forced a major redesign of the internal weapons bays with other systems re-routed around those bays..causing a huge increase in cost and delays in delivery..
(A good personal friend lost his position with General Dynamics when Dick Cheney cancelled the program near Christmas 1992, he told me all about the non-classified nature of what was going on at the Fort Worth facility).

So in a way the NAVY killed the program..
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top