UFP & Cloaking devices (post-singular destiny with spoilers)

[Deranged Nasat]

Of course, if the Federation is using cloaking devices,

Spoiler: "Serpents Among the Ruins"

can the Romulans then legally conquer Koltaari? If the Federation won't keep its side of the treaty, or if the treaty is dissolved, surely the Star Empire could decide to retake that world, particularly now they are in need of resources having lost two thirds of the empire?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I think Sci just answered a part of my above comment. Thanks, Sci.

 

[Paris]

If more and more AQ nations were to start using cloaks, then the technology will be forced to advance pretty fast. Better sensors will be fashioned to defeat the Romulan cloak, followed by the Romulans making better cloaks, etc. etc. . Cloaking devices may end up acting as the central piece of tech in the "arms race" in this expected cold war. Just as nuclear weapons were central in our cold war. This series is going to be great

 

[Sci]

No prob! To dig a bit further into your question, though...

Of course, if the Federation is using cloaking devices,

Spoiler: "Serpents Among the Ruins"

can the Romulans then legally conquer Koltaari? If the Federation won't keep its side of the treaty, or if the treaty is dissolved, surely the Star Empire could decide to retake that world, particularly now they are in need of resources having lost two thirds of the empire?

Spoiler: Serpents, A Singular Destiny

I doubt that they'd be able to legally conquer anyone. For one, we don't know what the legal status of Koltaari is in the late 24th Century. They could be protectorates, or even a full-fledged Federation Member State. Either way, I doubt interstellar law recognizes the legality of swooping in and conquering a sovereign world.

Further, as I noted above, the Romulan Star Empire is in no position to conquer anybody. They're barely feeding their own people, and they've lost half their military to the Imperial Romulan State and an unknown percentage of what was left from that to the Borg Invasion. Even with the Pact, I doubt anyone's in a position to begin imperial projects; the Pact's first job is probably going to be to help its members rebuild and stabilize their economies, not give people a reason to sing "Hail the Conquering Typhons."

And, on top of that, we don't know if Koltaari survived the Borg Invasion; the Koltaari could well have been exterminated.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

No prob! To dig a bit further into your question, though...

Of course, if the Federation is using cloaking devices,

Spoiler: "Serpents Among the Ruins"

can the Romulans then legally conquer Koltaari? If the Federation won't keep its side of the treaty, or if the treaty is dissolved, surely the Star Empire could decide to retake that world, particularly now they are in need of resources having lost two thirds of the empire?

Spoiler: Serpents, A Singular Destiny

I doubt that they'd be able to legally conquer anyone. For one, we don't know what the legal status of Koltaari is in the late 24th Century. They could be protectorates, or even a full-fledged Federation Member State. Either way, I doubt interstellar law recognizes the legality of swooping in and conquering a sovereign world.

Further, as I noted above, the Romulan Star Empire is in no position to conquer anybody. They're barely feeding their own people, and they've lost half their military to the Imperial Romulan State and an unknown percentage of what was left from that to the Borg Invasion. Even with the Pact, I doubt anyone's in a position to begin imperial projects; the Pact's first job is probably going to be to help its members rebuild and stabilize their economies, not give people a reason to sing "Hail the Conquering Typhons."

And, on top of that, we don't know if Koltaari survived the Borg Invasion; the Koltaari could well have been exterminated.

All very good points. Personally, I never believed they would do it or that it would make sense, I just wondered if they could from a legal viewpoint.

 

[Christopher]

If more and more AQ nations were to start using cloaks, then the technology will be forced to advance pretty fast. Better sensors will be fashioned to defeat the Romulan cloak, followed by the Romulans making better cloaks, etc. etc. . Cloaking devices may end up acting as the central piece of tech in the "arms race" in this expected cold war. Just as nuclear weapons were central in our cold war.

Well, that's what's evidently been happening with cloaking technology for centuries anyway, given how many different times the Federation has come upon "new" cloaking tech. Earth Starfleet encountered and penetrated Suliban and Romulan cloaks in ENT, then by "Balance of Terror" the Romulans had a new kind of cloak that was far more effective but still vulnerable to motion sensors, then by "The Enterprise Incident" they'd developed a cloak immune to motion sensors. In TSFS, Klingon cloaks created a visual distortion, but that was beaten by TUC, as was the inability to fire while cloaked. But then Spock found a way to penetrate that kind of cloak, and so later cloaks apparently sacrificed the ability to fire while cloaked in exchange for an ability to mask engine exhaust. And so on. The only way to reconcile all the different kinds of "impenetrable" cloaks which were then penetrated is to assume that a cloaking-vs.-sensor arms race has already been going on for over 200 years. The competition between detection and countermeasures has been a basic element of military confrontation going back to the earliest forms of camouflage, and it always will be.

 

[rahullak]

^

Yep. Now that the UFP would most likely repeal the Treaty of Algeron, they can go into developing cloak tech full fledged.

 

[Paris]

^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

But until now, if an Admiral did authorize it, they'd be court-martialed for provoking conflict with the RSE by violating treaty...

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

But until now, if an Admiral did authorize it, they'd be court-martialed for provoking conflict with the RSE by violating treaty...

Then why wasn'y Janeway court-martialed when she gave to go ahead to Worf to use a cloaking device.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

But until now, if an Admiral did authorize it, they'd be court-martialed for provoking conflict with the RSE by violating treaty...

Then why wasn'y Janeway court-martialed when she gave to go ahead to Worf to use a cloaking device.

Because, as others have mentioned above, the RSE was no longer a superpower at that point. It didn't matter so much if the Federation angered or offended the Romulans, as the Romulans were not in a position to pose a true threat. The Federation was helping hold the Star Empire together. As Akaar says in "Taking Wing", the Federation is simply stronger now. Well, then. The Typhon Pact changes it again, I suppose...

 

[rahullak]

^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

They couldn't develop it out in the open or divert a noticeable amount of resources to the development of cloaking tech before. Now, with the UFP on the job without having to hide it, they might advance the technology well-beyond the Scimitar and what the Romulans and Klingons have.

 

[Paris]

^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

They couldn't develop it out in the open or divert a noticeable amount of resources to the development of cloaking tech before. Now, with the UFP on the job without having to hide it, they might advance the technology well-beyond the Scimitar and what the Romulans and Klingons have.

What do you consider "out in the open" ? I don't think the Federation lets just anybody observe what they are working on. Things like weapons and shields are constantly being worked on, but i'm sure SF doesn't publish their new weapons or shields designs for the general public to view. That would be tantamount to handing over those spec's to their enemies, who would then have all they need to construct counter measures without even trying. The Romulans wouldn't even need spies if this were the case. Cloaking tech, just like all of the other propriotary Federation tech would be worked on under the utmost security to prevent information leaks as much as possible.

 

[rahullak]

^It seems that they already have. As I stated earlier, in Resistance we find out that Starfleet has schematics for cloaking devices implanted in each ships computer core, and is available with an Admiral's say-so...

They couldn't develop it out in the open or divert a noticeable amount of resources to the development of cloaking tech before. Now, with the UFP on the job without having to hide it, they might advance the technology well-beyond the Scimitar and what the Romulans and Klingons have.

What do you consider "out in the open" ? I don't think the Federation lets just anybody observe what they are working on. Things like weapons and shields are constantly being worked on, but i'm sure SF doesn't publish their new weapons or shields designs for the general public to view. That would be tantamount to handing over those spec's to their enemies, who would then have all they need to construct counter measures without even trying. The Romulans wouldn't even need spies if this were the case. Cloaking tech, just like all of the other propriotary Federation tech would be worked on under the utmost security to prevent information leaks as much as possible.

Oh really? That would make the Romulans really dumb then. They signed the Treaty of Algeron forbidding UFP from developing (and this involves testing) cloaking devices knowing full well that they would not be able to find out if the UFP did. That's absurd. They obviously have ways of finding out which would naturally inhibit development of such technologies.

And now, the UFP doesn't have to worry about developing and testing of cloaking (and phase-shifting) devices leading to war.

No one's suggesting that weapons and sensitive specs are "published to the general public".
Would they have secretive development programs? Sure.
But the entire alpha quadrant knows what weapons and what the capabilities are of the UFP, the Romulans, the Klingons etc. are in general (eg. quantum torpedoes, disruptors, phasers, transphasic) simply because they've been used before.

 

[Christopher]

Then why wasn'y Janeway court-martialed when she gave to go ahead to Worf to use a cloaking device.

Because, as others have mentioned above, the RSE was no longer a superpower at that point. It didn't matter so much if the Federation angered or offended the Romulans, as the Romulans were not in a position to pose a true threat.

That's not true. As stated above, a treaty has the force of law for either nation that is a signatory to it, regardless of the status or actions of the other nation. If Janeway gave an order violating UFP law, that would mean she was answerable, not to the Romulans, but to the Federation itself.

It's possible that the treaty or law is written to allow exceptions in case of extreme emergency, so long as the cloak is not used against any of the signatories; that's how the use of a cloak aboard Defiant could be justified (though Sisko did stretch the letter of the law considerably when using the cloak in the Alpha Quadrant). The use of a cloak against the Borg may have been permissible under the same exemption, though it's likely that Janeway would've had to submit to a hearing in order to prove the necessity of her order.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Then why wasn'y Janeway court-martialed when she gave to go ahead to Worf to use a cloaking device.

Because, as others have mentioned above, the RSE was no longer a superpower at that point. It didn't matter so much if the Federation angered or offended the Romulans, as the Romulans were not in a position to pose a true threat.

That's not true. As stated above, a treaty has the force of law for either nation that is a signatory to it, regardless of the status or actions of the other nation. If Janeway gave an order violating UFP law, that would mean she was answerable, not to the Romulans, but to the Federation itself.

It's possible that the treaty or law is written to allow exceptions in case of extreme emergency, so long as the cloak is not used against any of the signatories; that's how the use of a cloak aboard Defiant could be justified (though Sisko did stretch the letter of the law considerably when using the cloak in the Alpha Quadrant). The use of a cloak against the Borg may have been permissible under the same exemption, though it's likely that Janeway would've had to submit to a hearing in order to prove the necessity of her order.

Ah, thank you for correcting me, Christopher. My legal knowledge is very slim. So did Janeway face a hearing or not?

 

[Christopher]

^Maybe she did. Maybe that's why a couple of months elapse between the disabling of the Borg supercube in Resistance and her visit to it in Before Dishonor -- because she was busy dealing with the legal fallout in the interim. Alternatively, maybe there was a hearing scheduled but it became moot when she died.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

^Maybe she did. Maybe that's why a couple of months elapse between the disabling of the Borg supercube in Resistance and her visit to it in Before Dishonor -- because she was busy dealing with the legal fallout in the interim. Alternatively, maybe there was a hearing scheduled but it became moot when she died.

Thanks. Both of those ideas make sense to me.

 

[Paris]

disregard

 

[Paris]

disregard...please delete