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Torchwood: Children of Earth DAY FIVE FINALE grading thread

Day Five: Nut Brown Ale or Squid Vomit?

  • Total voters
    107
Starkers said:
Plus, and I could be wrong, I thought the UN usurped the UK through the General, rather than the US taking over alone.
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Nope. The UN and UNIT pretty much stayed out of it, providing support staff to whoever was in charge.

You might recall that at the beginning of "Day Five," Home Secretary Denise Riley is briefing Prime Minister Brian Green on the British Army's child abduction operation in the briefing room. United States Army General Pierce is in the room and demands that the Home Secretary brief him on the British Army's operation and cease briefing the Prime Minister.

HOME SECRETARY RILEY (to the Prime Minister)
We've isolated 2,600 primary schools, sir.

GENERAL PIERCE
I'm sorry, but you'll address me in all matters concerning this operation.

HOME SECRETARY RILEY
This information is for Mister Green.

GENERAL PIERCE
You and Mister Green -- and this government -- have proven yourselves incapable of handling this crisis. All decisions will now go through me. You were saying?

HOME SECRETARY RILEY (looks to the Prime Minister, who does not look to her; hesitates; to General Pierce)
We have 2,600 primary schools listed here. We are mobilizing transport. At 1200 hours, the British Army will take the children from their schools to the designated rendezvous points.

PRIME MINISTER GREEN
What if they refuse, the soldiers? We could have a mutiny on our hands.

GENERAL PIERCE
They've been told: Any soldier refusing to do his duty will make his own family liable.

HOME SECRETARY RILEY
So we take them to the rendezvous points. But what then?

GENERAL PIERCE
We're about to find out. They're [UNIT] entering Thames House right now.
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Basically, the United States Armed Forces, with nary a word of protest from the Prime Minister, overthrew the British government and assumed control of the British Army -- and, therefore, the entire United Kingdom -- for the duration of the crisis, purely on force of personality... and presumably on implicit threat of violence if the British government refused.

It was the UNIT General who was entering Thames House; Pierce was the US Military Representative, not with UNIT.
 
Nothing indicates that General Peirce's manadate didn't come from the UN though, one can be under the auspices of the UN without being part of UNIT. And it might have been a UN decision that the US took control over the UK's response.
 
Starkers said:
Nothing indicates that General Peirce's manadate didn't come from the UN though, one can be under the auspices of the UN without being part of UNIT. And it might have been a UN decision that the US took control over the UK's response.
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There is absolutely no indication of that, and the Prime Minister explicitly says that that's not the case at the end of "Day Five."

When General Pierce is introduced by the BBC News anchor in "Day Three," the scene reads as follows:

ANCHOR
These images are from five minutes ago. That's been identified as Colonel Oduya of the Unified Intelligence Taskforce. And this is coming live: That's General Austin Pierce, representing the American Armed Forces. He's heading inside Downing Street right now.
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No one ever identifies General Pierce as in any way representing the United Nations or any UN bodies. His uniform is American, with no UN or UNIT insignia on it. His first line is one clearly meant to represent the United States rather than the United Nations:

PIERCE
I've been asked to convey from the President of the United States his absolute fury. (beat) Is that understood?
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Later in the scene, General Pierce continues to express anger from the American government and gives no hint of representing the UN in his lines. It falls to Colonel Oduya to complain about UNIT being excluded from the British government's decisions. When Prime Minister Green says that the U.S. President is welcome to come to London to meet with the 456s himself, he address General Pierce, and the general replies, saying, "We will not move the President into a location that's had no security screening. That'll take days to organize, weeks."

Green replies, saying, "Then my offer is withdrawn."

Pierce asks, "What does that mean?"

"I won't usurp the United States, or any other nation...."

Pierce is obviously there representing the United States, not the U.N.

Later, there is no indication that his assumption of power in the U.K. in "Day Five" is backed by any sort of U.N. mandate, nor indeed that it is legal at all. He makes a demand and the Brits submit.

At the end of "Day Five," Green notes, "I suppose you could say we were lucky.... Lucky with the Americans, I mean. General Pierce took charge, without ratification from the United Nations. We can say that today's events were in American hands!"

Clearly, this is a case of the Americans charging in and taking control without anyone's permission. (Rather like what the Doctor tends to do, really! ;) )
 
I forgot the two rules: One never get involved in a land war in asia, but only slightly less important is, never argue with Sci. :D

I'd forgotten about Green's comment right at the end :)
 
I think we're getting into the territory of overanalysis now, gentlemen, which will completely suck it dry.
 
Anybody been watching the behind the scenes clips on the BBC Torchwood site? Day 5 when they're all talking about Eve Myles (is she a sex symbol? No she's a dvia) is hilarious. Also, Gareth David-Lloyd talking about his ambition to take Ianto into space (hidden depths in outer space) and his yearning to do a shoulder roll is classic! :guffaw:
 
WillsBabe said:
Anybody been watching the behind the scenes clips on the BBC Torchwood site? Day 5 when they're all talking about Eve Myles (is she a sex symbol? No she's a dvia) is hilarious. Also, Gareth David-Lloyd talking about his ambition to take Ianto into space (hidden depths in outer space) and his yearning to do a shoulder roll is classic! :guffaw:
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I just watched the Declassified on the blu-ray set today (I did wonder where Declassified was on TV). Interesting that RTD does talk about future story possibilities even on there, so I assume he wasn't lying when he said s4 was ready to go if it got picked up.
 
As I mentioned in the Day Four thread, I managed to see the final two episodes without too much of a wait. I still shaken by watching both episodes last night.

If I thought Ianto dying and the 456's need for the children as a drug wasn't enough, this episode pushed even harder.

The opening scene with Gwen wondering about The Doctor and why sometimes he's not there when Earth needs him was beautifully scripted and executed. That scene made me think about "Stolen Earth" and how everyone was scrambling around trying to figure out where the hell The Doctor was. Why weren't people doing that now? Why wasn't Jack trying to get in touch with Martha (beyond the first phone call seen in "Day One") or Sarah Jane? A few minor points that went through my mind at the beginning of the episode, but they were quickly pushed away has the episode went into full speed.

Between seeing the army rounding up children at schools and homes and watching Frobisher making a grave decision about his family in some small comfort in trying to protect them, I was already bawling with tears. However, when I realized that the "terrible thing" John Barrowman referred to in a recent interview that he feared people would hate Jack for wasn't his role in 1965 but was being forced to use his own grandson to save the world...I simply lost it.

As I began to fear towards the end of "Day Four," the means of defeating the 456 came a bit too quickly and "easy," I have to say it was built up towards. We knew they had power over children and it does make sense that the best way of fighting against them was use the children against them. That being said, what's to prevent them from coming back? Of course, that also begs the question of why weren't they able to come in and just take the children as needed? For that matter, why did only 11 children hold them off for 40 years but now they need mililons?

That all aside, I thought Children of Earth was a very well down production. The writing, the directing, and the acting was all very good with a few exceptions (Liz May Brice as the Agent was a bit rubbish at the beginning but got a bit better). MAJOR props to Peter Capaldi for his performance as John Frobisher. In fact, at times during "Day Five," he reminded me a mellower version of David Tennant's Doctor (at least in the facial mannerisms).

With Jack departing Earth once again, I feel that it's safe to say that this is the end of Torchwood. That's odd considering back in season 1, I wanted it to end, but now I love it. That being said, this is a very satisfying conclusion to the series. I look forward to seeing Jack showing up on Doctor Who once again.
 
Emh said:
As I mentioned in the Day Four thread, I managed to see the final two episodes without too much of a wait. I still shaken by watching both episodes last night.

If I thought Ianto dying and the 456's need for the children as a drug wasn't enough, this episode pushed even harder.

The opening scene with Gwen wondering about The Doctor and why sometimes he's not there when Earth needs him was beautifully scripted and executed. That scene made me think about "Stolen Earth" and how everyone was scrambling around trying to figure out where the hell The Doctor was. Why weren't people doing that now? Why wasn't Jack trying to get in touch with Martha (beyond the first phone call seen in "Day One") or Sarah Jane? A few minor points that went through my mind at the beginning of the episode, but they were quickly pushed away has the episode went into full speed.

Between seeing the army rounding up children at schools and homes and watching Frobisher making a grave decision about his family in some small comfort in trying to protect them, I was already bawling with tears. However, when I realized that the "terrible thing" John Barrowman referred to in a recent interview that he feared people would hate Jack for wasn't his role in 1965 but was being forced to use his own grandson to save the world...I simply lost it.

As I began to fear towards the end of "Day Four," the means of defeating the 456 came a bit too quickly and "easy," I have to say it was built up towards. We knew they had power over children and it does make sense that the best way of fighting against them was use the children against them. That being said, what's to prevent them from coming back? Of course, that also begs the question of why weren't they able to come in and just take the children as needed? For that matter, why did only 11 children hold them off for 40 years but now they need mililons?

That all aside, I thought Children of Earth was a very well down production. The writing, the directing, and the acting was all very good with a few exceptions (Liz May Brice as the Agent was a bit rubbish at the beginning but got a bit better). MAJOR props to Peter Capaldi for his performance as John Frobisher. In fact, at times during "Day Five," he reminded me a mellower version of David Tennant's Doctor (at least in the facial mannerisms).

With Jack departing Earth once again, I feel that it's safe to say that this is the end of Torchwood. That's odd considering back in season 1, I wanted it to end, but now I love it. That being said, this is a very satisfying conclusion to the series. I look forward to seeing Jack showing up on Doctor Who once again.
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That's the trouble with the Doctor just being a phone call away...then again didn't the Brig radio for the Doctor In Terror of the Zygons?

As for why the 456 managed on 11 kids for 40 years...well as I said (and I had no proof of this) it might just be that they were junkies who realised they could be dealers and hence wanted to up the ante...plus we don't know the travel time to their planet, maybe the first lot were just a recon group in a small ship? They get back and suddenly every 456 wants their own small child!

I was waiting for someone to say "how many will they want next time?" Of course I was also waiting for someone to say "If we gave you 15% what would it be worth?" :)

Anyone else imagining the hard stare Tennant's Doctor will give Jack? :lol:
 
Starkers said:
Anyone else imagining the hard stare Tennant's Doctor will give Jack? :lol:
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Actually, I would really like to see a serious conversation between the Doctor and Jack with Jack explaining what he's been up to.

One of the things I really appreciated about the way CoE was written was Jack's daughter and how she was insistent that he was dangerous. I couldn't quite get a handle on what she meant, the extent of it, until he did what he did at the end. Great writing, I felt. Sometimes I feel that I have been manipulated by writers, and not in a good or clever way. Sometimes (and much more rarely) do I feel as if I've been taken on a journey of some sort of discovery. That's how I feel here, and I love it when that happens.
 
^In fairness mr I killed my own people to defeat the Daleks probably doesn't have much in the way of high ground on this!
 
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Starkers said:
^In fairness me I killed my own people to defeat the Daleks probably doesn't have much in the way of high ground on this!
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To a point... On the other hand, the Doctor would not be wrong to note that had he not blown up Gallifrey to destroy the Daleks, it seems (based on dialogue from "The Sound of Drums") that the Daleks would likely have exterminated the Time Lords and gained access to Time Lord technology.
 
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