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Torchwood: Children of Earth DAY FIVE FINALE grading thread

Day Five: Nut Brown Ale or Squid Vomit?


  • Total voters
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BTW -- the government of Prime Minister Brian Green? Guilty of treason. Even if they felt compelled to hand over the children to the 456s to save humanity, they had no right to hide the information from the people of Earth, nor did they have any right to decide to exempt their own children, nor did they have the right to only target the poor, the working class, and the ethnic minorities (which is exactly what they did).

Question: do you think the US government was choosing differently?

Probably not, given that the U.S. basically took over administering the British government's plan. I'd presume that whoever replaced Arthur Coleman Winters after Harold Saxon assassinated him was also hiding the 456's demands from the public and is therefore also guilty of treason.

Or the French,

Probably the same here.

the Sudanese,

The Sudanese government probably just told the Janjaweed to hand over all of the Fur, Zaghawa, and Masalit children, given their ongoing acts of genocide.

the Chinese? Actually I imagine the Chinese probably just said "Give them the children of ciy X!" :lol:

They'd probably just hand over all of the Uyghurs', Tibetans', and Falong-Gong members' children.

And you are correct re RTD, I've always said the main problem I have with him is that I can see he is a great writer, he just annoys me by not reigning himself him: Like Midnight this shows exactly what he's capable of, he is a great writer.

Please note this doesn't mean he gets a free ride from me from now on when he does go overboard in future! ;) and he still has trouble coming up with credible solutions to huge disasters/invasions etc- this one worked though, if only because of the sacrifice Jack made, and it wasn't quite as bad as just twiddling some knobs.

Fair enough. Even if you think he drops the ball at lot, I just like to see people admit he's capable of picking it up if he wants to. ;)
 
I've always maintained that RTD is a brilliant writer (and yes, I did so even when I had *that* infamous avatar which got some humourless cunts backs up, sigh), but he has made some rubbish decisions over the years. He admits it himself in the Writer's Tale.

JMS has also written some unforgivable tripe, but that don't spoil the fact that Babylon 5 was the greatest TV show ever made (IMHO disclaimer here for the terminally anal).

CoE = RTD's B5 AFAIC, YMMV.
 
Probably not, given that the U.S. basically took over administering the British government's plan. I'd presume that whoever replaced Arthur Coleman Winters after Harold Saxon assassinated him was also hiding the 456's demands from the public and is therefore also guilty of treason.

Every government, no matter it's political leanings, will keep things from the public, sometimes for noble reasons, sometime for not so noble reasoning. You do have to wonder what would be gained by releasing the information about the 456; world wide panic?

I think what was brilliant about what RTD and co crafted here is that there were no right/wrong, black/white solutions. There was no easy get out.


Fair enough. Even if you think he drops the ball at lot, I just like to see people admit he's capable of picking it up if he wants to. ;)

Well I've always been quite clear that I appreciate when he does things well, that's part of the reason he annoys me so much when he does drop the ball!
 
The thing you fanatics are overlooking is that I don't think anyone wanted to see the Doctor, Sarah Jane, Mr. Smith or anyone else show up for the story. The problem is that they should have been a part of this story. It's a problem with having the story being told in a universe that has the Doctor, Sarah Jane, Mr. Smith and etc. in it. People who consistantly and regularly show up during cataclysmic events involving every single child on the entire planet AND focused on Great Britain. Hell, we barely even saw UNIT. Just one guy in a uniform. That was it.

There's this thing called "suspension of disbelief." This story stretches it beyond the breaking point. In the reality of its universe, the Doctor, Sarah Jane, Mr. Smith and/or UNIT should have all been major players alongside Torchwood.

Even if you absolutely loved the story itself, those characters shouldn't have been excluded just so you could allow the drama to unfold. That is bad storytelling, and that is the problem some people are having with it. And it's not them wanting to see those characters, just that they should have been there for the story to be at all believable within the context of its own universe.

No bad storytelling would be including characters who have nothing to do with the story the writers were trying to tell just to satisfy the very few people who have to have everything linked in some absolutely coherent continuity.

Unsurprisingly the only place I've seen the argument that the Doctor and/or Sarah Jane should have shown up has been on boards like these. In contrast mates of mine who were watching Torchwood, many for the first time, have all loved it and not for one second asked (or cared) why the Doctor wasn't there - let alone Sarah Jane! BBC1 9pm weekdays is not the place for extended explanations as to what the Doctor and Sarah Jane are up to at the expense of a well told, very dramatic TV programme about Torchwood.

Plus all shared universes have this problem - sometimes you want a story involving all the characters but sometimes you just want to see how it will affect a specific group. Hence why the Enterprise and Starfleet in general aren't there to save DS9 every week or why the X-Men don't show up every time the Fantastic Four are in trouble. That's just the nature of a shared universe - its imperfect but the vast majority of people are able to go along with it and certainly the incredible AI's for last week (peaking at 91 on Thursday) would indicate it didn't bother the viewers of last weeks episodes.
 
Unsurprisingly the only place I've seen the argument that the Doctor and/or Sarah Jane should have shown up has been on boards like these.

Same here, apart from one bloke on facebook who conceded that it was a silly nitpick.
 
Having spent too much time on the Internet since Friday night I note that the ultimate irony about COE is that people spent four years complaining that RTD didn't write stories that were dark or adult or serious enough and when he turn round and creates one of the most dark and adult and serious series seen on British TV in years people complain that it was too dark too adult and too serious.

The guy can't get a break!
QFT

And if people didn't get quite so wound up as they have done, it would amuse me no end.
 
Bright as day I thought.

I was just amazed that the Germans weren't pushed to the front of the blame game for conceeding 725 years ago in Hamelin first.
 
Hey I watched this the other night (marathon of all 5 parts on UKTV) and it was suprisingly rather good.

When did Torchwood get good? Last I checked it was crap on a stick..
 
^ If you didn't watch series 2, it was a big step up, though not as good as CoE. It just seems to have moved forward in its production values.
 
I thought this was quite amusing!

photo_lrg.jpg
 
thinking about it im amazed RTD & John Barrowman could hold themselves back from making that reference.

That said most of the things you can criticise RTDs are absent from CoE, makes me wonder where that restraint was on Doctor Who?
 
thinking about it im amazed RTD & John Barrowman could hold themselves back from making that reference.

That said most of the things you can criticise RTDs are absent from CoE, makes me wonder where that restraint was on Doctor Who?

Well as Sci points out, the choice is just not to be restrained on Who, and whilst I don't always agree with that I do see the logic...
 
Every government, no matter it's political leanings, will keep things from the public, sometimes for noble reasons, sometime for not so noble reasoning.

Oh, I don't know about that. You're talking about 190-some-odd governments throughout the planet and several de facto unrecognized governments. That's a lot of governments, and they run the whole spectrum of political ideologies; so say that not one of the 190-something heads of government would be willing to release that information is, I think, premature.

It would certainly seem that if any government did release the 456's plans for the children, the information never made it to Britain -- but, there again, considering that the British press were obviously under a state of censorship, I don't know if we can take that to mean that it didn't get out.

You do have to wonder what would be gained by releasing the information about the 456; world wide panic?

I can easily imagine some of the more populist governments -- Evo Morales of Colombia, for instance -- deciding to release the information simply out of principle: The belief that if the people of their country might be forced to sacrifice their children, they should know that it is going to happen and why it is going to happen. The right to know and all that.

I think what was brilliant about what RTD and co crafted here is that there were no right/wrong, black/white solutions. There was no easy get out.

Or, rather, no clearly moral options that did not seemingly have unacceptably high prices. It would have been completely moral for the governments of the world to release the information on the 456s and then act according to the consensus of the general populations -- but that would likely have meant fighting a war they could not win and thereby risking genocide.

I do wonder, though, why no one ever even speculated on the option of simply calling the 456's bluff. After all -- the 456s need Human children. They're junkies. If they had wiped out the entire species, as they threatened, they would have destroyed their own supply. They'd be out of a dealer.

Another option that went unexplored was the issue of children who are brain-dead. Presumably, there weren't enough of them in the world, but I would personally argue that there's nothing immoral about turning over a brain-dead child who is on life-support -- such "children" are little more than shells, in my view; the thing that makes someone a person is the presence of a mind, and if there is no mind, then it's not a person anymore. But one has to wonder if anyone ever considered the option of offering to the 456s medically-certified brain dead children, since presumably the bodies would still be capable of producing whatever chemicals the 456s get off on, but without there being a mind there to suffer. One wonders if perhaps the establishment of a permanent trade deal there might have given the 456s a steady supply of their drug while averting the need to, in essence, enslave human beings.

I'm a bit curious as to why the 456s were apparently able to mind-mojo all of the children of the world into freezing and reciting ominous warnings, but not able to just mind-mojo them into gathering into specific locations for beam-up. Had they thought of this, they would have been able to cut out the worlds' governments and avoid having to deal with them in what could easily have been a mass abduction that occurred with no warning and therefore no ability by Humans to thwart it.

I do find myself wondering why the 456s, who are apparently talented enough biologists that they can engineer unique and fast-acting strains of flu to serve as biological weapons, cannot simply figure out how to synthesize the chemicals that childrens' bodies produce -- or, for that matter, clone more Human children from the ones that the Brits handed over in 1965. To me, that almost suggests that maybe they're not as good as they say they are -- maybe their biological weapons are not as dangerous to the species as they claim. A virus that kills its hosts as quickly as the one released into Thames House, for instance, would probably never be able to survive long enough to threaten epidemic or pandemic status -- they'd kill their hosts before they'd even have enough time to spread outside of a building. All the more reason someone should have thought to call their bluff.

but, there again, everyone was so terrorized with fear of the 456s that it's not unrealistic that no one thought to do it -- and, similarly, if the 456s were all strung out on their drugs, I can see where they might no longer be capable of the kind of sophisticated planning they might need to organize a mass abduction without Human help.
 
true, but I do wish he had show a little bit of restraint, just a tiny little bit, Last of the Timelords being maybe the best example of an example that RTD should have shown some restraint with.

There are plenty of times when Doctor Who benefits from Russel just taking an idea and running with it, no matter how crazy it seems, but not all the time.

*wonders if he should post the latest Digital Spy pic of John Barrowman*
 
I do find myself wondering why the 456s, who are apparently talented enough biologists that they can engineer unique and fast-acting strains of flu to serve as biological weapons, cannot simply figure out how to synthesize the chemicals that childrens' bodies produce -- or, for that matter, clone more Human children from the ones that the Brits handed over in 1965. To me, that almost suggests that maybe they're not as good as they say they are -- maybe their biological weapons are not as dangerous to the species as they claim. A virus that kills its hosts as quickly as the one released into Thames House, for instance, would probably never be able to survive long enough to threaten epidemic or pandemic status -- they'd kill their hosts before they'd even have enough time to spread outside of a building. All the more reason someone should have thought to call their bluff.
some very good points
 
I do find myself wondering why the 456s, who are apparently talented enough biologists that they can engineer unique and fast-acting strains of flu to serve as biological weapons, cannot simply figure out how to synthesize the chemicals that childrens' bodies produce -- or, for that matter, clone more Human children from the ones that the Brits handed over in 1965. To me, that almost suggests that maybe they're not as good as they say they are -- maybe their biological weapons are not as dangerous to the species as they claim. A virus that kills its hosts as quickly as the one released into Thames House, for instance, would probably never be able to survive long enough to threaten epidemic or pandemic status -- they'd kill their hosts before they'd even have enough time to spread outside of a building. All the more reason someone should have thought to call their bluff.
some very good points

Thanks.

I'll tell you what, though -- between the global panic caused by the 456, Slitheen, Sycorax, and Racnoss Incidents, the assassination of Tony Blair and Harold Saxon, the damaged caused by the worldwide Cybermen invasion, the damage caused by the Sontaran invasion, the assassination of the President of the United States and United Kingdom Cabinet by the British Prime Minister, and the world-wide destruction of numerous civilian population centers and the destruction of the worlds' militaries by the Dalek Invasion and Occupation, the entire Earth must be caught in what has to be the worst recession in history ever since the Slitheen destroyed Big Ben and assassinated Tony Blair back in 2006!

(I think it's interesting that the United States is still apparently militarily dominant enough to essentially usurp control of the United Kingdom from its own government in "Children of Earth," too -- you'd think that given the Daleks' targeting of military bases, the United States would have been the nation hardest-hit and would have lost its military superpower status. Though I suppose everyone else might have been hit hard enough that the relative balance of power would be the same.... Still, you'd think it would be a lot harder for the U.S. to fuck with the British government post-Dalek Invasion.)
 
Sci, making all the children stop and mutter a few words probably inolves less tech and power than making them all move to a specific location. One could argue that the 456 could have frozen specific playgrounds full of kids and yank them up in clusters...but that would have taken time to get the numbers they wanted (I assumed they'd gone from junkies who only needed a few kids to dealers who needed millions) and I like the idea that they're too stoned to be bothered doing anything too strenuous!

We don't know the 456 are talented biologists, they might have got the tech from other sources. A junkie who mugs you at gunpoint hasn't built the gun, he's just purchased it.

Bluffing it out would have been an option, and I do think RTD should have given us a bigger example of the 456's power than Thames House. Destroying an entire city maybe? At the end of the day what the world's governments did know was this: The 456 had the power to make every child stop- they had the power to transport themselves and others without spacecraft. They can release a deadly toxin at the drop of a hat. And it must have been a toxin rather than a virus given that neither Jack nor the bodies were quarentined.

Brain dead children, can't see their being enough of them, and you can almost see the leap of logic; brain dead children to kids in wheelchairs...Horrible as it may be my initial thought was, how many kids are starving to death in Africa right now?
 
I do find myself wondering why the 456s, who are apparently talented enough biologists that they can engineer unique and fast-acting strains of flu to serve as biological weapons, cannot simply figure out how to synthesize the chemicals that childrens' bodies produce -- or, for that matter, clone more Human children from the ones that the Brits handed over in 1965. To me, that almost suggests that maybe they're not as good as they say they are -- maybe their biological weapons are not as dangerous to the species as they claim. A virus that kills its hosts as quickly as the one released into Thames House, for instance, would probably never be able to survive long enough to threaten epidemic or pandemic status -- they'd kill their hosts before they'd even have enough time to spread outside of a building. All the more reason someone should have thought to call their bluff.
some very good points

Thanks.

I'll tell you what, though -- between the global panic caused by the 456, Slitheen, Sycorax, and Racnoss Incidents, the assassination of Tony Blair and Harold Saxon, the damaged caused by the worldwide Cybermen invasion, the damage caused by the Sontaran invasion, the assassination of the President of the United States and United Kingdom Cabinet by the British Prime Minister, and the world-wide destruction of numerous civilian population centers and the destruction of the worlds' militaries by the Dalek Invasion and Occupation, the entire Earth must be caught in what has to be the worst recession in history ever since the Slitheen destroyed Big Ben and assassinated Tony Blair back in 2006!

(I think it's interesting that the United States is still apparently militarily dominant enough to essentially usurp control of the United Kingdom from its own government in "Children of Earth," too -- you'd think that given the Daleks' targeting of military bases, the United States would have been the nation hardest-hit and would have lost its military superpower status. Though I suppose everyone else might have been hit hard enough that the relative balance of power would be the same.... Still, you'd think it would be a lot harder for the U.S. to fuck with the British government post-Dalek Invasion.)

Yeah but the US has the biggest military on the planet so they could probably take the hit, given how much the US spends on defence I imagine the American economy is probably healthier than everyone elses given what they had to replace :lol:

Plus, and I could be wrong, I thought the UN usurped the UK through the General, rather than the US taking over alone.
 
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