the thin-gay line

[Therin of Andor]

If Maurice Hurley and Rob Bowman had written down a thoughtful and thorough history of the Borg when they created Q Who, maybe the Borg wouldn’t have been so completely dumbed down by other episodes and FC.

And who pays writers to do "thoughtful and thorough" histories on every guest character and alien race, when no one knows which ones will become ongoing arcs?

 

[Captrek]

If Maurice Hurley and Rob Bowman had written down a thoughtful and thorough history of the Borg when they created Q Who, maybe the Borg wouldn’t have been so completely dumbed down by other episodes and FC.

And who pays writers to do "thoughtful and thorough" histories on every guest character and alien race, when no one knows which ones will become ongoing arcs?

In the case of the Borg, they knew.

 

[Therin of Andor]

In the case of the Borg, they knew.

No they didn't. The writers floated an idea in Season One's "The Neutral Zone" that Federation and Romulan settlements were being "scooped up" by aliens unknown. In Season Two's "Q Who", a possible race that fitted that description was introduced, but it seemed they were located too far away to be the same race. The original Borg design was suggested as insectoid by that script, IIRC, not humanoid. The writers certainly didn't know that this race would return at any point, nor even what unique elements of the race would become emphasised in future scripts. The idea of Picard being captured by them didn't occur to the writers until Patrick Stewart started making noises that he might not return in Season Four.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Actually, they planned to have them return in the second season finale, but a writer's strike or budget cutbacks (can't remember which) killed the idea. They did have an episode where Riker and Picard are conducting a mock battle in preparation for the Borg (the one where the Ferengi think it's a real battle).

But I do agree that there's no reason to have to plan out everything in a species right away. Things change when you get new ideas. In BOBW, the new idea was the idea of assimilation. In First Contact, it was the Borg Queen. I happen to like the former better than the latter, but they were both created because the ideas of all species evolve over time.

 

[Shawnster]

The way I was thinking of it, this race comes from a more typical evolutionary history where they were 90% straight at 10% gay, and the animal species on their world still reproduce in the traditional way. Somewhere along the line the humanoid species transitioned from a mostly-straight race that procreated like animals by following their inherent sexual urges to a mostly-gay race that procreates through more antiseptic methods. Exactly how this transition occurred is not addressed in my treatment above. I have a few ideas. I’m sure you can come up with a few yourself if you think about it.

Not that “artificial means to reproduce” in this case doesn’t necessarily imply advanced technology. It could have begun in ancient times with a simple process of a man ejaculating into a little cup and a woman applying the semen to herself (or having it applied to her); if a girl is born the mother and her wife raise the child; if a boy is born the child is given to the father and his husband to raise. Technology could be incorporated into the process as it develops.

Ah, well, there you go. Now to just determine what caused such a social change. In regards to your little cup illustration - that's still technology. Of course, so is using a branch or a rock as a tool. It's just at what point in a society's technological growth are they able to reach certain conclusions and apply this or that particular method.

 

[CaptainStoner]

While Bashir certainly felt more comfortable with his relationship to the Chief, O'Brien always had some problems admitting it to himself or anyone else.



Bashir and O'Brien in "Explorers" (Season 3)

O'Brien: "You're not an in-between kind of guy. People either love you or hate you."
Bashir: "Really?"
O'Brien: "I mean, I hated you when we first met."
Bashir: "I remember."
O'Brien: "And now..."
Bashir: "And now?"
O'Brien: "Well... Now, I don't."
Bashir: "That means a lot to me, chief, it really does."
O'Brien: "And that is from the heart! I really do... not hate you anymore."



Bashir and O'Brien in "Hippocratic Oath" (Season 4)

O'Brien: "Keiko only spends a few days at a time on the station. I'm the one living in those quarters. And if I wanna set up... a little workshop in the bedroom..."
Bashir: "You set up a workshop in the bedroom?"
O'Brien: "Yeah. I don't use it when she's visiting."
Bashir: "No, of course not."
O'Brien: "She says that I'm trying to live like a bachelor again. That I'm expressing a subconcious desire to push her out of our quarters."
Bashir: "Now, that is ridiculous! I mean, if anything, by spending your free time in the bedroom, a place you intimately associate with Keiko, you're actually expressing a desire to be closer to her, during her absence. It's quite touching, really!"
O'Brien: "Exactly! Exactly! See, you understand! Now why can't she see that? Why can't she be more like, uh..."
Bashir: "More like...?"
O'Brien: "Err, um, a man, more like a man."
Bashir: "So. You wish Keiko was a man."

That is not O'Brien struggling with being bisexual. Nowhere is there even a hint of attraction towards Bashir. O'Brien is simply missing his bachelor days, and Bashir reminds him of it. So O'Brien gets to relive some of it with his friend. One of my favorite ongoing subplots in DS9: the darts, the holosuite adventures, the Alamo. They're buddies, no wink, no nod.
And sure, they must love each other, but there are many shades of love.

As for Garak, there was some intent to make him ambiguous, but I really don't think we ever get enough to "make the call" as it were. There are some cliche "gay" things about him: the tailoring, some of his mode of speech perhaps. But those are stereotypes. Not to get back to O'Brien, but a gay crewmember is just as likely to be found in engineering as in a tailor's shop.
O'BRIEN: "Yeah, umm Keiko...I have to run another one of those damn diagnostics."
KEIKO: "So is that what you call it?"
O'BRIEN: "What?"
(shit hits the fan)

In a way I'm glad Garak never manifested as bisexual, because the character then challenges the stereotypes. When DS9 was on, I had a phase where I liked purple shirts. That was all it took to get "gay" comments, just a certain wavelength ink on a piece of cloth. The 90's, indeed. Hey, at least it wasn't teal.

 

[EnsignRicky]

If Maurice Hurley and Rob Bowman had written down a thoughtful and thorough history of the Borg when they created Q Who, maybe the Borg wouldn’t have been so completely dumbed down by other episodes and FC.

And who pays writers to do "thoughtful and thorough" histories on every guest character and alien race, when no one knows which ones will become ongoing arcs?

They learned their lesson after sinking twelve million dollars into Bynar RnD.

 

[barnaclelapse]

While Bashir certainly felt more comfortable with his relationship to the Chief, O'Brien always had some problems admitting it to himself or anyone else.



Bashir and O'Brien in "Explorers" (Season 3)

O'Brien: "You're not an in-between kind of guy. People either love you or hate you."
Bashir: "Really?"
O'Brien: "I mean, I hated you when we first met."
Bashir: "I remember."
O'Brien: "And now..."
Bashir: "And now?"
O'Brien: "Well... Now, I don't."
Bashir: "That means a lot to me, chief, it really does."
O'Brien: "And that is from the heart! I really do... not hate you anymore."



Bashir and O'Brien in "Hippocratic Oath" (Season 4)

O'Brien: "Keiko only spends a few days at a time on the station. I'm the one living in those quarters. And if I wanna set up... a little workshop in the bedroom..."
Bashir: "You set up a workshop in the bedroom?"
O'Brien: "Yeah. I don't use it when she's visiting."
Bashir: "No, of course not."
O'Brien: "She says that I'm trying to live like a bachelor again. That I'm expressing a subconcious desire to push her out of our quarters."
Bashir: "Now, that is ridiculous! I mean, if anything, by spending your free time in the bedroom, a place you intimately associate with Keiko, you're actually expressing a desire to be closer to her, during her absence. It's quite touching, really!"
O'Brien: "Exactly! Exactly! See, you understand! Now why can't she see that? Why can't she be more like, uh..."
Bashir: "More like...?"
O'Brien: "Err, um, a man, more like a man."
Bashir: "So. You wish Keiko was a man."

That is not O'Brien struggling with being bisexual. Nowhere is there even a hint of attraction towards Bashir. O'Brien is simply missing his bachelor days, and Bashir reminds him of it. So O'Brien gets to relive some of it with his friend. One of my favorite ongoing subplots in DS9: the darts, the holosuite adventures, the Alamo. They're buddies, no wink, no nod.
And sure, they must love each other, but there are many shades of love.

As for Garak, there was some intent to make him ambiguous, but I really don't think we ever get enough to "make the call" as it were. There are some cliche "gay" things about him: the tailoring, some of his mode of speech perhaps. But those are stereotypes. Not to get back to O'Brien, but a gay crewmember is just as likely to be found in engineering as in a tailor's shop.
O'BRIEN: "Yeah, umm Keiko...I have to run another one of those damn diagnostics."
KEIKO: "So is that what you call it?"
O'BRIEN: "What?"
(shit hits the fan)

In a way I'm glad Garak never manifested as bisexual, because the character then challenges the stereotypes. When DS9 was on, I had a phase where I liked purple shirts. That was all it took to get "gay" comments, just a certain wavelength ink on a piece of cloth. The 90's, indeed. Hey, at least it wasn't teal.

Or lavender.

Either way, good point across the board.

 

[JustKate]

Bashir and (no, not Garak) O'Brien

Wut!?! O'Brien?!? No, he's probably borderline homophobic. Bashir, I don't know. He might be bi.

Yeah, my wife gets that vibe from Bashir. Women can 'sense' these things better than guys I think. She thinks Picard, Bashier, Garak, Dukat, 7/9, T'pol, Reed, Worf's son (as portrayed on DS9), Wesley, Jake, Q (even in Delancy form) Beverly Crusher, Troi are all bi..and some of them are closeted gays.

I asked her the question I had to ask...what about Morn?? She'll get back to me on that one. But definately the Horta.

Rob

Without meaning any disrespect to either you or your wife, Robert, it has been my experience that people who routinely get "gay vibes" about characters as widely divergent as Picard, Garak, Wesley, T'Pol and Troi tend to have really narrow ideas about what constitutes heterosexual behavior.

Either that, or they just enjoy messin' with people's heads!

 

[RobertScorpio]

Wut!?! O'Brien?!? No, he's probably borderline homophobic. Bashir, I don't know. He might be bi.

Yeah, my wife gets that vibe from Bashir. Women can 'sense' these things better than guys I think. She thinks Picard, Bashier, Garak, Dukat, 7/9, T'pol, Reed, Worf's son (as portrayed on DS9), Wesley, Jake, Q (even in Delancy form) Beverly Crusher, Troi are all bi..and some of them are closeted gays.

I asked her the question I had to ask...what about Morn?? She'll get back to me on that one. But definately the Horta.

Rob

Without meaning any disrespect to either you or your wife, Robert, it has been my experience that people who routinely get "gay vibes" about characters as widely divergent as Picard, Garak, Wesley, T'Pol and Troi tend to have really narrow ideas about what constitutes heterosexual behavior.

Either that, or they just enjoy messin' with people's heads!

Or they just get 'gay vibes' from people. I have given up on applying my 'assumptions' on what makes other people click. I think she's nutty in some cases, but she has been right about some people we have met in our lives. So, I just let her muse about it.

Rob

 

[JustKate]

^ But no doubt she's been wrong, too. I'm just saying that a "gay vibe" isn't usually a particularly useful tool to use in judging somebody's sexual preferences. It's just too dang vague.

 

[RobertScorpio]

^ But no doubt she's been wrong, too. I'm just saying that a "gay vibe" isn't usually a particularly useful tool to use in judging somebody's sexual preferences. It's just too dang vague.

Ummm..yeah, I know. But we are all human. And let me stress, it doesn't affect our friendship with anyone. A couple of our best friends are gay and, trust me, they are quite cool with her 'gay vibe' thing. They find it quite funny, and gasp, they love to point out to us who they think is gay and who isn't. So it does go both ways..and its fun..especially at the Comic-con, which is next week, where you KNOW its like shooting ducks in an overstuffed fish farm!

Rob

 

[Sci]

How about an entire gay race, the J'naii: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/J'naii

The J’naii weren’t gay, they were genderless.

I’ve always thought it would have been cool to encounter a truly “gay race.” Imagine the Enterprise encounters a world where the the people are gay. The reproduce in laboratories. The family unit, which is a bedrock of their society, consists either of one or more boys being raised by two fathers who teach the boys how to be men, or one or more girls being raised by two mothers who teach the girls how to be women.

But here’s the deal: Only 90% of their people are really gay. 10% are straight. The straights are denounced by the dominant religion on the planet, which teaches that heterosexual sex is animalistic, vile, and sinful, while homosexual bonding is spiritual and holy. The straights are pressured by the majority to “change their lifestyles,” give up their sinful ways, and live as gays. Straights are scorned and often targeted for violence. They do not get many of the basic legal rights that gays take for granted. “Reparative therapy” is offered to “cure” them. And so on.

Just to give viewers a brief opportunity to imagine what it would be like being on the other side, you know?

You might enjoy the musical Zanna, Don't!.

ETA:

And I simply do not believe that Malcolm Reed is straight. The man never looks like he's having any fun with women, and the character never seems to bond with any women on a non-platonic level. He never looks attracted to anyone (even if the script calls for him to be). Plus, the man looked like he was infatuated with Trip. Para mí, Reed was gay -- and in deep denial about it.

 

[JustKate]

^ But no doubt she's been wrong, too. I'm just saying that a "gay vibe" isn't usually a particularly useful tool to use in judging somebody's sexual preferences. It's just too dang vague.

Ummm..yeah, I know. But we are all human. And let me stress, it doesn't affect our friendship with anyone. A couple of our best friends are gay and, trust me, they are quite cool with her 'gay vibe' thing. They find it quite funny, and gasp, they love to point out to us who they think is gay and who isn't. So it does go both ways..and its fun..especially at the Comic-con, which is next week, where you KNOW its like shooting ducks in an overstuffed fish farm!

Rob

I guess it comes down to preferences - personality preferences, that is, not sexual ones. To me, speculating, even innocently, about somebody's sexual preference is just...well, kind of boring, unless it has some relevance to me. So sure, the sexual preference of someone I'm interested in or who I am interested in fixing a friend up with would have relevance, and even that of a TV character might have relevance insofar as it affects the plot or illuminates the character, but other than that...eh. Not so much.

I don't mean to spoil you guys' innocent fun. But on the other hand, there is no way that allllllll those characters you mentioned truly gave off a "gay vibe." Sorry, but that's just not possible. So I also suspect your wife of having some "messin' with people's heads" fun. I don't intend that to be an insult, by the way. Maybe she enjoys messin' with yours. It's a wife's perogative, after all - or so it seems to me, though perhaps my husband would disagree.

 

[JustKate]

And I simply do not believe that Malcolm Reed is straight. The man never looks like he's having any fun with women, and the character never seems to bond with any women on a non-platonic level. He never looks attracted to anyone (even if the script calls for him to be). Plus, the man looked like he was infatuated with Trip. Para mí, Reed was gay -- and in deep denial about it.

Does he ever look like he has any fun? I haven't seen that many episodes of ENT, but I've seen, oh, maybe half or three-quarters of a season's worth, and in my recollection, we are not talking about a zest-for-life kind of guy here.

 

[RobertScorpio]

^ But no doubt she's been wrong, too. I'm just saying that a "gay vibe" isn't usually a particularly useful tool to use in judging somebody's sexual preferences. It's just too dang vague.

Ummm..yeah, I know. But we are all human. And let me stress, it doesn't affect our friendship with anyone. A couple of our best friends are gay and, trust me, they are quite cool with her 'gay vibe' thing. They find it quite funny, and gasp, they love to point out to us who they think is gay and who isn't. So it does go both ways..and its fun..especially at the Comic-con, which is next week, where you KNOW its like shooting ducks in an overstuffed fish farm!

Rob

I guess it comes down to preferences - personality preferences, that is, not sexual ones. To me, speculating, even innocently, about somebody's sexual preference is just...well, kind of boring, unless it has some relevance to me. So sure, the sexual preference of someone I'm interested in or who I am interested in fixing a friend up with would have relevance, and even that of a TV character might have relevance insofar as it affects the plot or illuminates the character, but other than that...eh. Not so much.

I don't mean to spoil you guys' innocent fun. But on the other hand, there is no way that allllllll those characters you mentioned truly gave off a "gay vibe." Sorry, but that's just not possible. So I also suspect your wife of having some "messin' with people's heads" fun. I don't intend that to be an insult, by the way. Maybe she enjoys messin' with yours. It's a wife's perogative, after all.

Here is the list again, and it is a list that includes those who she suspects to be BISEXUAL as well.

Picard? His sexuality has been debated on this site before. She is not the first one to suggest old baldy could be bi.

Bashir? Again, his sexuallity has been debated before. She isn't the first.

Garak? Well...he does have that gay vibe, and Robinson him self has touched on it.

7/9. Again, her sexuality has been discussed (even fantasized) about.

Dukat? Not sure about that one. I get no 'vibe' there. How she does? I don't know. I'll have our gay friends, who are not TREK fans, watch and get back to you.

T'pol. Same as 7/9.

Alexander? mmmmm...I can see this one.

Wesley. Again, this has often been debated on this site...so she isn't the first.

Jake. I don't see it.

Q? Oh definately. He even states he should have appeared as a woman. That alone puts him on the 'bi' side of the vibe. He plays Q about as trampy as Depp's Captain jack. And he has a bi vibe too..

Beverly. She leaves the possibility open in her Trill moment, or so some have said...I agree

Troi? Same as 7/9 and T'pol.

Sorry kate, but I think the more I read my wife's list? I think she was only absolutely wrong with Dukat and Jake. Thats not a bad record, and certainly better than 50%

Rob..

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I'll have our gay friends, who are not TREK fans, watch and get back to you..

I don't understand. Why do you think homosexual people have the ability to "sniff out" other homosexuals? All homosexuals are different in behaviour and how they express sexuality, same as heterosexuals. As a heterosexual, I can't tell if someone- particularly a character on TV!- is heterosexual or not.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I'll have our gay friends, who are not TREK fans, watch and get back to you..

I don't understand. Why do you think homosexual people have the ability to "sniff out" other homosexuals? All homosexuals are different in behaviour and how they express sexuality, same as heterosexuals. As a heterosexual, I can't tell if someone- particularly a character on TV!- is heterosexual or not.

I didn't say ALL homosexuals could do this, or have fun like this. But...whoa..people do these kinds of things..I shall explain.

Friends get together, in the real world. They go out, have fun, go to bars, where lots of people are. My two gay friends, as part of that "bonding" thing people do when they socialize, will point at some dudes from across the way and say they are gay, or not, or bi, or whatever. Its all done in good fun. Now, if this playful banter between my friends and I offend you, then I'm sorry. But if you take it in the context of friends hanging out at a club or bar then, hopefully, you will understand.

This isn't rocket science...

Rob

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I'll have our gay friends, who are not TREK fans, watch and get back to you..

I don't understand. Why do you think homosexual people have the ability to "sniff out" other homosexuals? All homosexuals are different in behaviour and how they express sexuality, same as heterosexuals. As a heterosexual, I can't tell if someone- particularly a character on TV!- is heterosexual or not.

I didn't say ALL homosexuals could do this, or have fun like this. But...whoa..people do these kinds of things..I shall explain.

Friends get together, in the real world. They go out, have fun, go to bars, where lots of people are. My two gay friends, as part of that "bonding" thing people when the socialize, will point at some dudes from across the way and say they are gay, or not, or bi, or whatever. Its all done in good fun. Now, if this playful banter between my friends and I offend you, then I'm sorry. But if you take it in the context of friends hanging out at a club or bar then, hopefully, you will understand.

This isn't rocket science...

Rob

Nothing you've said offends me in the slightest. I simply didn't understand what you meant. I myself have no experience in sexuality-guessing.

 

[RobertScorpio]

I don't understand. Why do you think homosexual people have the ability to "sniff out" other homosexuals? All homosexuals are different in behaviour and how they express sexuality, same as heterosexuals. As a heterosexual, I can't tell if someone- particularly a character on TV!- is heterosexual or not.

I didn't say ALL homosexuals could do this, or have fun like this. But...whoa..people do these kinds of things..I shall explain.

Friends get together, in the real world. They go out, have fun, go to bars, where lots of people are. My two gay friends, as part of that "bonding" thing people when the socialize, will point at some dudes from across the way and say they are gay, or not, or bi, or whatever. Its all done in good fun. Now, if this playful banter between my friends and I offend you, then I'm sorry. But if you take it in the context of friends hanging out at a club or bar then, hopefully, you will understand.

This isn't rocket science...

Rob

Nothing you've said offends me in the slightest. I simply didn't understand what you meant. I myself have no experience in sexuality-guessing.

Okay..thats cool. And remember, my wife just made her predictions off the top of her head when I gave her names..and, strangely enough, I think her 'gay vibe' was pretty on target. Most of them, Picard -Garak, and the others have been bantered about here on this site well before she came along.

Rob